No More Soft Players & Career Losers On The 3rd & 4th Lines

[Space umpire]

The basic logic most of you apply here is flawed. You can add 6 supermen to your bottom 6 and it doesn’t matter.
Playoff tough is not just about delivering punishment it is also about taking it and playing through.
I’m a born in Chicago Hawk fan (live in Florida) and when they allow fans I go to about 10 each of Lightning and Panther games.
Chicago didn’t win 3 cups because Ben Eager was in the bottom 6 they won because guys like Toews, Kane, Sharp, Handzus, Richards ... took hits to make plays. They fought through it.
Disagree if you want but Marner and especially Mathews avoided hits and it hurt the team.

 

[17 Clark]

What about 1st and 2nd lines?

It’s the whole team in general Don’t care about the fan base keep Showing you this

 

[Trapper]

The basic logic most of you apply here is flawed. You can add 6 supermen to your bottom 6 and it doesn’t matter.
Playoff tough is not just about delivering punishment it is also about taking it and playing through.
I’m a born in Chicago Hawk fan (live in Florida) and when they allow fans I go to about 10 each of Lightning and Panther games.
Chicago didn’t win 3 cups because Ben Eager was in the bottom 6 they won because guys like Toews, Kane, Sharp, Handzus, Richards ... took hits to make plays. They fought through it.
Disagree if you want but Marner and especially Mathews avoided hits and it hurt the team.

Thank you.
Very few get this though. It’s the sum of the core willing to get dirty and be dirty when needed.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yeah, you got the 3rd and 4th line making less than Marner money together ...and you expect them to be your playoff warriors.

No I would move Mitch for CAP relief .. great regular season player but useless when it counts in playoffs

 

[swint]

I don't get this thread. Ppl think the bottom 6 was the problem this year?

The bottom 6 contributed to the problem. I think the real purpose of this thread is to show that, while Matthews and Marner didn’t produce as they normally do, they really weren’t the downfall of this team in the playoffs. Hell, after going back and watching extended highlights from each game, I blame a lot of Auston and Mitch’s inability to put up points on Hyman, who had about 300 grade-A chances over the course of the series (set up by the other two), and couldn’t bury a single one.

With that being said, let’s focus on the bottom 6. This season was particularly exciting for fans because we were promised a team that was “different” from years prior. We brought in guys like Simmonds, and Thornton, and Foligno to be difference makers in the playoffs. What happened in the playoffs? Those 3 guys were the absolute worst players on the ice, for either team. They put us at a disadvantage for half the game because we were relying on 5 guys to get everything done. Mikheyev and Engvall were completely invisible, and it’s becoming increasingly apparent that, for whatever reason, it’s tough to win playoff games when your entire bottom 6 is irrelevant (not hitting, not scoring, not making anything hard for the other team). For that reason, people are looking to the bottom 6 as the root of this team’s playoff issues.

 

[17 Clark]

I don't get this thread. Ppl think the bottom 6 was the problem this year?

It’s called the blame game As long as it’s not the stars and someone else it’s OK some of the fans on these boards to be ashamed of yourself

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The bottom 6 contributed to the problem. I think the real purpose of this thread is to show that, while Matthews and Marner didn’t produce as they normally do, they really weren’t the downfall of this team in the playoffs. Hell, after going back and watching extended highlights from each game, I blame a lot of Auston and Mitch’s inability to put up points on Hyman, who had about 300 grade-A chances over the course of the series (set up by the other two), and couldn’t bury a single one.

With that being said, let’s focus on the bottom 6. This season was particularly exciting for fans because we were promised a team that was “different” from years prior. We brought in guys like Simmonds, and Thornton, and Foligno to be difference makers in the playoffs. What happened in the playoffs? Those 3 guys were the absolute worst players on the ice, for either team. They put us at a disadvantage for half the game because we were relying on 5 guys to get everything done. Mikheyev and Engvall were completely invisible, and it’s becoming increasingly apparent that, for whatever reason, it’s tough to win playoff games when your entire bottom 6 is irrelevant (not hitting, not scoring, not making anything hard for the other team). For that reason, people are looking to the bottom 6 as the root of this team’s playoff issues.

Hyman Foligno and Nash were all hurt dude .. none of them should have even dressed .. but they did in spite of themselves because we did not have backup due to CAP issues .. Jumbo can't even skate at a OHL level anymore so why did Keefer play him .. and Wayner played better when he got moved up to 3rd line from 4th where he wasted his time .. also would have helped had Dubie not brought in a guy with a bad back .. also would have helped if Perry does not knock out Tavares .. Keefer had not overplayed Muzzy so he pulled a groin .. and Edler not tore up Zach's knee .. why did Keefer not ramp up Kerfoot and Willy's time on ice when they were only 2 guys with Spezz producing .. lots of serious questions dude? .. many many many bad decisions made

 

[swint]

Thank you.
Very few get this though. It’s the sum of the core willing to get dirty and be dirty when needed.

If I had to rank our players based on their play in this years playoffs my list would look like this

Nylander
Kerfoot
Galchenyuk
Spezza

Matthews
Marner

Brooks

Engvall
Mikheyev
Hyman
Simmonds
Thornton

While Matthews and Marner didn’t score to their expectations, don’t try and tell me they weren’t two of our best players over the course of the series. They were generating chance after chance that wouldn’t go in and they were, in fact, going to the dirty areas to generate said chances. Came down to bad luck and, ultimately, playing on a line with a guy who can’t score timely goals (looking at you, Zach).

 

[robertmac43]

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type

Colorado is really wishing they had a guy like this right now....

 

[SML2]

Mike Foligno would probably sign for $1m but there’s not a chance in hell of getting Nick Foligno at that price.

It makes little to no sense to pay Foligno when he’s clearly at the back end of his career.

Nor does it make much sense to pay top dollar for someone else’s 3rd and 4th liners at their peak coming off a career year year.

Why would Foligno sign for 1m when he's coming off a 5.5m contract and you guys have up a 1st and a 4th for him? It's not like he has no value and he's at the end. For 1m you would think he'd go back to Columbus.

 

[Trapper]

If I had to rank our players based on their play in this years playoffs my list would look like this

Nylander
Kerfoot
Galchenyuk
Spezza

Matthews
Marner

Brooks

Engvall
Mikheyev
Hyman
Simmonds
Thornton

While Matthews and Marner didn’t score to their expectations, don’t try and tell me they weren’t two of our best players over the course of the series. They were generating chance after chance that wouldn’t go in and they were, in fact, going to the dirty areas to generate said chances. Came down to bad luck and, ultimately, playing on a line with a guy who can’t score timely goals (looking at you, Zach).

Well Hyman should be gone and then hopefully we find a 2M guy who properly knows how to support franchise players.

 

[swint]

Well Hyman should be gone and then hopefully we find a 2M guy who properly knows how to support franchise players.

That or stop thinking we need a guy like Hyman playing with our 2 best players. “wHoS gOnNa ReTrIeVe PuCkS?!?!?!?” IDK? Who retrieves pucks on the Mackinnon line in Colorado? The Bergeron line in Boston? Neither of those lines need an unskilled grinder.

 

[Zack47]

This thread states a basic fact, and a number of you can't face it. A core weakness of the Leafs is NOT defense, not the goalie, but the imbalance between the top 6 and the bottom 6 forwards. No good team can get away with this. People complain about the top 6 not scoring -- but think about it: why didn't they score?

One reason among many is no pressure from the bottom 6. I lived near New York in the great days of the Islanders -- and what people here don't see - because they didn't see the Islanders enough to judge -- is the incredible balance across lines on those teams. The third line wingers -- Nystrom and Tonelli (way underrated) fore checked people into the ground -- something the Leafs do not do -- and each scored 30 goals a year (don't respond about scoring back then, it was highly unusual then to have two third line wingers who scored that much and were as defensively effective. We gave up Kadri, Kapanen, and Johnsson as if it was no big deal, when it was crucial: that third line is miles ahead of any thirds lin this year. And no Kerfoot is not a replacement third line center.

But what can you do when the big four earn that much of the total cap? That's the point: you are cornered. Suggestions? Yes, trade someone expensive (Marner) just to distribute that money over multiple good players, stop thinking about super stars and think about a bunch of good players, and I would add: trade Rielly, because he is overrated and is mistake prone -- constantly -- defensively. We need one major alpha defenseman and Rielly is not it.

 

[Faltorvo]

Kerfoot was a bottom-6 player who was forced into the top-6 due to an injury. That doesn’t change the fact that he was a bottom-6 player.

Galchenyuk was like 12th in ice time among forwards. He was not a top-6.

Galy was 9th in ES toi gp and Kerf 5th

 

[Faltorvo]

What people don’t understand is that you can’t win shit in this league with passengers who are defended by fans with the classic phrase “they’re good defensively”. Just because absolutely nothing happens every single time these guys are on the ice, doesn’t mean that they’re good players. We need our bottom 6 players to be able to chip in.

complete and utter HORSE SHIT

go look at every team still standing,,after the top 6 forwards producers ,it's nothing but garbage offensive numbers from the bottom 6

 

[Faltorvo]

look at all the teams left in the playoff their 3rd and 4th lines are all Canadian or American expect the Avs who has Burakovsky on the 3rd line and Bellemare on the 4th. I know this is a take right out of Don Cherry playbook but the Leafs need to fill the bottom 6 with Canadian and American kids who will battle and not back down

Leafs keep bringing the Barabanovs and soft euros to play bottom six and they fail every time. You can get away with say Mikhevev who is fast and can PK but other than that get some guys in there who can play a playoff style game with some offense

Spezza while not physical per se does ramp up his game in the playoffs so he gets a pass.

Stop drafting Euros and get some good North American kids in the later rounds who will fill the voids on the bottom 2 lines.

draft who??? dumbass sold most of this years picks for this pile of crap team.

 

[Donnie740]

The basic logic most of you apply here is flawed. You can add 6 supermen to your bottom 6 and it doesn’t matter.
Playoff tough is not just about delivering punishment it is also about taking it and playing through.
I’m a born in Chicago Hawk fan (live in Florida) and when they allow fans I go to about 10 each of Lightning and Panther games.
Chicago didn’t win 3 cups because Ben Eager was in the bottom 6 they won because guys like Toews, Kane, Sharp, Handzus, Richards ... took hits to make plays. They fought through it.
Disagree if you want but Marner and especially Mathews avoided hits and it hurt the team.

Leafs do not have any cap room to add a legit top six forward. Throwing $5m at Mike Granlund and pretending he’s a legit top six is is a waste of money and just as delusional as pretending Zach Hyman is a legit top six guy.

Aside from not having any money, the Three Stooges doubled down in their commitment to the big four. Which means the top two lines are pretty much locked in.

Which leaves the bottom six as the only realistic place for change. MUCH easier to find a competent bottom six FA than it is to find a competent top six FA. And infinitely more affordable.

 

[Faltorvo]

Thank you.
Very few get this though. It’s the sum of the core willing to get dirty and be dirty when needed.

i kinda disagree,,it's a pack mentality that is needed here

you might/ just might get that from bitch/matty and willi IF the rest of the roster is full of mangy mutts fighting to earn in the NHL

20 ish guys bleeding and fighting to win can be contagious and if the 3 wimps won't step up,,then ship their overpaid useless arses out.

 

[Trapper]

i kinda disagree,,it's a pack mentality that is needed here

you might/ just might get that from bitch/matty and willi IF the rest of the roster is full of mangy mutts fighting to earn in the NHL

20 ish guys bleeding and fighting to win can be contagious and if the 3 wimps won't step up,,then ship their overpaid useless arses out.

But it starts from the top.
You going to run through the minefield when your leaders are hiding behind a rock?

The core takes over the identity of the team
That’s why Boston moves out guys because it’s their identity. Not Thornton or Kessel or Seguin.

 

[Faltorvo]

But it starts from the top.
You going to run through the minefield when your leaders are hiding behind a rock?

The core takes over the identity of the team
That’s why Boston moves out guys because it’s their identity. Not Thornton or Kessel or Seguin.

no Trapper,,i completely hear what you are saying but no

the 3 kids are not those kind of leaders and never ever will be,,,they already got paid for who they are.

we will have to do it the other way and just fill out the roster with wagner/grzelcyk types and use/force the majority to shut down/shut up the 3 kids

 

[Stephen]

i kinda disagree,,it's a pack mentality that is needed here

you might/ just might get that from bitch/matty and willi IF the rest of the roster is full of mangy mutts fighting to earn in the NHL

20 ish guys bleeding and fighting to win can be contagious and if the 3 wimps won't step up,,then ship their overpaid useless arses out.

We definitely need a standard level of buy in that can snowball into a pack mentality on a playoff run. You can’t have discrete ingredients, babysitters and a lunch pail group if the whole idea is protecting a boy band core. We’ve got the cute one. The snipe-y one. The funny mullet one. The core has to be leading that program.

 

[m1ker]

The sad reality is that we have half the cap invested in 4 of the exact same type of forwards. We are finished. Our only chance is fluking cheap bottom 6 guys that over perform in the playoffs. How unlikely is that year over year? We can't even afford a decent LW on the team and will be icing the softest defence in the league and muzzin. It's not looking good boys. Dubas got it wrong, you can teach skill but you can't teach grit.

 

[Faltorvo]

We definitely need a standard level of buy in that can snowball into a pack mentality on a playoff run. You can’t have discrete ingredients, babysitters and a lunch pail group if the whole idea is protecting a boy band core. We’ve got the cute one. The snipe-y one. The funny mullet one. The core has to be leading that program.

well stephen have fun with that

cuzz the 3 kids ain't ever changing who they are,,,they already quit on and got the highest paid coach in the NHL fired because he tried to change them

 

[Stephen]

well stephen have fun with that

cuzz the 3 kids ain't ever changing who they are,,,they already quit on and got the highest paid coach in the NHL fired because he tried to change them

We saw a lot of growth (aka real production and physical buy in) out of Nylander and some great individual games from Matthews so there’s a work in progress. But Mitch is the wild card and I’m not bullish on him.

 

[A1LeafNation]

The bottom 6 contributed to the problem. I think the real purpose of this thread is to show that, while Matthews and Marner didn’t produce as they normally do, they really weren’t the downfall of this team in the playoffs. Hell, after going back and watching extended highlights from each game, I blame a lot of Auston and Mitch’s inability to put up points on Hyman, who had about 300 grade-A chances over the course of the series (set up by the other two), and couldn’t bury a single one.

With that being said, let’s focus on the bottom 6. This season was particularly exciting for fans because we were promised a team that was “different” from years prior. We brought in guys like Simmonds, and Thornton, and Foligno to be difference makers in the playoffs. What happened in the playoffs? Those 3 guys were the absolute worst players on the ice, for either team. They put us at a disadvantage for half the game because we were relying on 5 guys to get everything done. Mikheyev and Engvall were completely invisible, and it’s becoming increasingly apparent that, for whatever reason, it’s tough to win playoff games when your entire bottom 6 is irrelevant (not hitting, not scoring, not making anything hard for the other team). For that reason, people are looking to the bottom 6 as the root of this team’s playoff issues.

Lol no. Everyone did what they were suppose to except Matthews and Marner. They score 2 goals each and this is a short series.