Blue Jays Discussion: No More AA, Everyone is very Sad (and by Sad, I mean Mad)

[Muston Atthews]

So basically it looks like a very lateral move... in terms of performance of their respective teams. Yes, Shapiro was handicapped by his budget, but Anthopoulos was handicapped by playing in a division with the Red Sox and Yankees, who spend money as if they print it.

Why make the change then?

I'm sure there are plenty of more than capable execs out there who'd be great at managing the stadium upgrades and corporate sales strategy while leaving AA to baseball ops.

Why don't you name some? I also don't understand how it's a lateral move if Alex did what he did with a top 10 payroll and Shapiro with a bottom 5?

 

[Fantomas]

I am not a big AA fan. While he did make some good moves, I have been disappointed by the organization's development of young players. The over-reliance on the trade to construct a competitive roster drove me crazy (even though some of the trades were well done, as we all know).

Did Rogers micromanage AA too much? What effect did this have on the trades, player development and the final product?

 

[metafour]

No, because why should I believe he's such a great baseball mind, when his record in recent years suggests otherwise? But sure, let's try to force narratives on posters.

You really need a history lesson.

The Cleveland Indians are among the poorest teams in the league, and have operated as such under Mark Shapiro. They are virtually bottom ten, and at times bottom five in payroll from a year to year basis. This is a game of money and resources, by comparison our own Blue Jays look like the Yankees in comparison to the Indians. When you operate on a budget that low, sustained success is incredibly difficult...just ask the Tampa Bay Rays who are back down to 4th in the AL East after a run wherein they were top dogs. Oh yeah, and all the pre-Shapiro success the Indians had was with prior ownership who had fielded among the most expensive rosters in the league.

Despite payroll limitations, the Indians still hold a handful of young star caliber players that will keep them competitive for years even with no big free agent signings. Mark Shapiro knows what he is doping and is regarded highly for a reason. Anthopolous is a good GM in his own right, but I really hope you aren't stupid enough to try and compare the two situations in a blind attempt to make Shapiro out as "lesser". Give Anthopolous the Indians payroll, is he still wheeling a dealing picking up guys like Tulowitzki who are making $20+ mill a year until their mid 30's? Of course not.

 

[Discoverer]

Indeed it is. Jays farm nothing to speak of. Royals had a top farm for years and years.

Going into the 2015 season, the Jays farm system was ranked higher than the Royals by everyone.

 

[FreeBird]

Former Red Sox GM

May be a fit for the Jays, Ben Cherington who walked away from the Sox when Dombrowski took over as President of the Sox, for the same reasons as Alex did the Jays. Yankees tried to sign Cherington for their organization but he declined.

 

[one77]

Shapiro is okay, but AA was an outstanding GM. Young, creative, ballsy, made moves when he needed to, well spoken, players loved him, and he built one of the best teams in the whole league. Yes he traded some prospects, but he has an AMAZING eye for talent and never had a problem restocking our farm system. Every single year he seemed to add numerous great prospects to the system.

He will be missed. Whichever team picks him up is going to extremely lucky for the next 10+ years. I think this move by Rogers (backing Shapiro more than AA for no damned reason) is going to haunt us for a long long time. Sad time to be a Jays fan.

 

[Brown Dog]

Worst possible time for a shake-up to the front office.

We have a team with a veteran core that needs some significant changes to become champion-calibre. Pretty hard to ask a brand new regime to make those kinds of changes successfully.

Teams with championship aspirations don't make these kinds of changes, for obvious reasons.

We also have very little help coming from the farm for 2016.

With Bautista and Edwin aging and entering the final years of their contracts, 2016 should be an "all-in" year. Instead, it sounds like we'll have a new guy focused on tinkering, putting his stamp on, and replenishing the prospect pool. Ugh.

 

[Muston Atthews]

You really need a history lesson.

The Cleveland Indians are among the poorest teams in the league, and have operated as such under Mark Shapiro. They are virtually bottom ten, and at times bottom five in payroll from a year to year basis. This is a game of money and resources, by comparison our own Blue Jays look like the Yankees in comparison to the Indians. When you operate on a budget that low, sustained success is incredibly difficult...just ask the Tampa Bay Rays who are back down to 4th in the AL East after a run wherein they were top dogs. Oh yeah, and all the pre-Shapiro success the Indians had was with prior ownership who had fielded among the most expensive rosters in the league.

Despite payroll limitations, the Indians still hold a handful of young star caliber players that will keep them competitive for years even with no big free agent signings. Mark Shapiro knows what he is doping and is regarded highly for a reason. Anthopolous is a good GM in his own right, but I really hope you aren't stupid enough to try and compare the two situations in a blind attempt to make Shapiro out as "lesser". Give Anthopolous the Indians payroll, is he still wheeling a dealing picking up guys like Tulowitzki who are making $20+ mill a year until their mid 30's? Of course not.

Mark Shapiro is doping? Sounds like he'll fit right in with this roster !

 

[King Mapes]

You'd think so, but from 2010-2014 the Indians went 394-416, and the Jays went 396-414.

Lol. He keeps swinging and missing wildly. Amazing

 

[Muston Atthews]

Lol. He keeps swinging and missing wildly. Amazing

Really? What have a I swung and missed on besides those two posts? I meant the last two years prior to this one Cleveland had a better record than us and I mis-posted a stat that I read earlier on in the day prior to that post. But go on, what have a swung and missed on?

Shame on me for not fact checking one post and missing a couple words from another Nice of you to add to the conversation though.

 

[AustonMcDavid]

I really want to know the real reason he left.

 

[Longshot]

Driving home from picking the kids up from school and it dawned on me. I had a good laugh about it all.

AA acquired Donaldson (possible) MVP and Price (possible) Cy Young and he still got run out of town by ownership/Shapiro.

I wonder if that has happened ever in the history of baseball?

This is, without a doubt, one the strangest days in the history of Toronto sports. I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

 

[GoonieFace]

Although I'm upset that AA is leaving, I will reserve judgement on Shapiro. I'm sure he is capable of overseeing player personnel (if he chooses to do so) or hiring a capable GM to do so. My only hope is that they continue what Alex started for the upcoming season.

 

[metafour]

He wasn't involved but had the ability to nix deals, and he did. The difference is that AA had a trusting relationship with Beeston where Beeston didn't have to get involved in baseball ops. He assumingly did not have the same relationship with Shapiro and was not willing to try and build that.

Beeston is an accountant with zero baseball personnel acumen. If he'd "nix a deal", it would be purely financial...it would NEVER be because he felt it was "a bad baseball move", or whatever.

The switch is that Shapiro himself is an accomplished baseball-first President; which means that he has his own visions with regards to the makeup of the team. You think Beeston gives a crap who the manager is? Shapiro on the other hand WILL care about who is managing the team. With Beeston, AA was the head baseball guy. With Shapiro, he'd be "sharing" those duties.

 

[Muston Atthews]

I really want to know the real reason he left.

I'd assume that after years of working under Beeston he probably wanted to build his own team without having to work under another person. That's my opinion though.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Driving home from picking the kids up from school and it dawned on me. I had a good laugh about it all.

AA acquired Donaldson (possible) MVP and Price (possible) Cy Young and he still go run out of town by ownership/Shapiro.

I wonder if that has happened ever in the history of baseball?

This is, without a doubt, one the strangest days in the history of Toronto sports. I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

There is nothing to compare it to .. But it seemingly fits within the long standing story of ridiculous things that happens in Toronto sports

 

[Fantomas]

This is not even remotely close to being kinda partially true.

Look at the players the Royals have developed. The Blue Jays have certainly traded their fair share of prospects, but the development has been a source of disappointment for me. Which is why Pillar's emergence has been such a nice surprise.

 

[Fantomas]

Driving home from picking the kids up from school and it dawned on me. I had a good laugh about it all.

AA acquired Donaldson (possible) MVP and Price (possible) Cy Young and he still got run out of town by ownership/Shapiro.

I wonder if that has happened ever in the history of baseball?

This is, without a doubt, one the strangest days in the history of Toronto sports. I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

Did AA get 'run out of town'? Maybe he wanted to leave.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

The best season Mark Shapiro had in Cleveland was 07 it was on the backs of Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Sabathia and Fausto Carmona. The rest of the team included world beaters like Casey Blake, Josh Barfield, Jason Michaels, Trot Nixon, Jake Westbrook, Paul Byrd. They bottomed out after that and it's easy to see why.

 

[metafour]

I'd assume that after years of working under Beeston he probably wanted to build his own team without having to work under another person. That's my opinion though.

He was building his own team here. Working under Beeston? Beeston just sits in his office and smokes cigars all day. He is a dinosaur - an accountant who yups it up with Rogers executives that had literally zero say in the actual "makeup" of the baseball roster.

 

[Ovate]

Worst possible time for a shake-up to the front office.

We have a team with a veteran core that needs some significant changes to become champion-calibre. Pretty hard to ask a brand new regime to make those kinds of changes successfully.

Teams with championship aspirations don't make these kinds of changes, for obvious reasons.

We also have very little help coming from the farm for 2016.

With Bautista and Edwin aging and entering the final years of their contracts, 2016 should be an "all-in" year. Instead, it sounds like we'll have a new guy focused on tinkering, putting his stamp on, and replenishing the prospect pool. Ugh.

Going into the playoffs, we were the favourites to be the World Series champs. If we keep the same roster, we're going to have a very good shot again next year. Some tinkering and either re-signing Price or signing another ace could be all we need.

My concern is that we don't go in on a free agent pitcher, we're the same team as last year but worse, and we slowly slide into mediocrity, taking another 5-10 years before we get another solid chance at the World Series.

 

[Longshot]

I really want to know the real reason he left.

In science, they always look for the simplest explanation.

Honestly, I'm starting think he just doesn't like Shapiro and didn't want to work for him.

I can't believe that two experienced professional like AA and Shapiro couldn't work out a system that gave AA the power he wanted. Shapiro's track record in Cleveland showed him to be exactly that kind of guy.

I also can't believe this is the first move Shapiro would want to make to start his tenure here. I mean, it immediately puts him on the defensive and automatically turns a portion of the fanbase and media against him.

I also believe AA was sincere when he said he wanted to stay.

The only other explanation I can think of is Rogers/Shapiro plan to change the direction of the team and AA wanted no part of that after this past season. Which, seems like a stretch. Why would Shapiro leave the Indians to come into a situation like that? It would be no-win for him.

 

[Fantomas]

I think fans are getting enamored with AA too much. He has given them one playoff appearance and some have elevated him to the status of some kind of deity. His tenure with the Blue Jays has been far from the stuff of legends. Just saying.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Beeston is an accountant with zero baseball personnel acumen. If he'd "nix a deal", it would be purely financial...it would NEVER be because he felt it was "a bad baseball move", or whatever.

The switch is that Shapiro himself is an accomplished baseball-first President; which means that he has his own visions with regards to the makeup of the team. You think Beeston gives a crap who the manager is? Shapiro on the other hand WILL care about who is managing the team. With Beeston, AA was the head baseball guy. With Shapiro, he'd be "sharing" those duties.

The point is that he COULD nix any potential deal. With Shapiro offering Alex a long term deal like he did, it would be really surprising to me that he would step all over his toes. It seems to me that Alex didn't have the same trust in Shapiro as he did with Beeston and that's why he didn't want to come back.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Although I'm upset that AA is leaving, I will reserve judgement on Shapiro. I'm sure he is capable of overseeing player personnel (if he chooses to do so) or hiring a capable GM to do so. My only hope is that they continue what Alex started for the upcoming season.

Well this was a big off-season for the Jays anyway in terms of how were they going to shore up the rotation and the bullpen ... We know that Shapiro won't spend top dollars on pitchers in FA, which either means a lot of boom/bust cheap starters in the rotation or that they'll make some trades. And this is assuming Shapiro wants to contend next season.

Basically he'll have to have a big offseason to leave me satisfied. No half measures - either they're going to push as a contender next year or they're going to rebuild the roster ... Meaning they either have to sign some quality pitching or move some of the big bats to revamp the rotation or prospect pool.