Blue Jays Discussion: No More AA, Everyone is very Sad (and by Sad, I mean Mad)

[Longshot]

There is nothing to compare it to .. But it seemingly fits within the long standing story of ridiculous things that happens in Toronto sports

The only thing that comes close is when Curtis Joseph left the Leafs.

It was one of those "HUH???" moments. But, even that was defensible when they brought in Belfour to replace him. Not to mention Joseph had become tired of ownership/management and wanted to leave (which really wasn't known the day of his signing).

 

[Muston Atthews]

He was building his own team here. Working under Beeston? Beeston just sits in his office and smokes cigars all day. He is a dinosaur - an accountant who yups it up with Rogers executives that had literally zero say in the actual "makeup" of the baseball roster.

He has nixed deals before and had a 5 year cap on FA signings. How is that having zero say in the actual makeup of the baseball roster? Alex had to ask him to make any big time deals.

 

[Woodman19]

I think fans are getting enamored with AA too much. He has given them one playoff appearance and some have elevated him to the status of some kind of deity. His tenure with the Blue Jays has been far from the stuff of legends. Just saying.

Anyone would of won by adding Price, Tulo, Hawkins, Revere and Lowe at the deadline. Not as many would of been willing to pay the price to get them all.

That said, I too have been irritated by the liberal use of the farm to augment the major league team when the truth is, he misused the teams large budget acquiring imperfect players in past offseasons.

 

[King Mapes]

Really? What have a I swung and missed on besides those two posts? I meant the last two years prior to this one Cleveland had a better record than us and I mis-posted a stat that I read earlier on in the day prior to that post. But go on, what have a swung and missed on?

Shame on me for not fact checking one post and missing a couple words from another Nice of you to add to the conversation though.

You said they won one less game, yet missed the playoffs. How would that even make sense? It's not fact checking, it's knowing how the baseball playoff system works. What you said would never make sense, especially considering you know we finished second in the AL.

Then you moved the goal posts and stated something else. Everyone was talking about his entire tenure as our GM and when you were yet again proven wrong you decide to move the goal posts one more time to try to prove your point. Whatever helps your argument.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Well this was a big off-season for the Jays anyway in terms of how were they going to shore up the rotation and the bullpen ... We know that Shapiro won't spend top dollars on pitchers in FA, which either means a lot of boom/bust cheap starters in the rotation or that they'll make some trades. And this is assuming Shapiro wants to contend next season.

Basically he'll have to have a big offseason to leave me satisfied. No half measures - either they're going to push as a contender next year or they're going to rebuild the roster ... Meaning they either have to sign some quality pitching or move some of the big bats to revamp the rotation or prospect pool.

Source?

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Did AA get 'run out of town'? Maybe he wanted to leave.

He wasn't run out of town...this is akin to a star player opting out of his last year of his deal so he can test free agency after having a monster season far above expectations that might make him more valuable than ever.

I think AA looks at the available GM pool and sees a chance to for a Theo Epstein opportunity to become the overseer of everything. And now is his chance to make that massive power grab and the money that comes with it.

 

[trellaine201]

I am wondering what people think about Toronto pro sports teams and who runs and owns each one. Seems like there is always some sorta of drama.

Is Toronto any different than any other pro sports city and franchises?

I have been a fan of TO sports for 40yrs. There always seems to be drama and no stability.

Thoughts?

 

[ACC1224]

Driving home from picking the kids up from school and it dawned on me. I had a good laugh about it all.

AA acquired Donaldson (possible) MVP and Price (possible) Cy Young and he still got run out of town by ownership/Shapiro.

I wonder if that has happened ever in the history of baseball?

This is, without a doubt, one the strangest days in the history of Toronto sports. I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

Ranks up there with Burke being fired out of the blue.

 

[TOGuy14]

Driving home from picking the kids up from school and it dawned on me. I had a good laugh about it all.

AA acquired Donaldson (possible) MVP and Price (possible) Cy Young and he still got run out of town by ownership/Shapiro.

I wonder if that has happened ever in the history of baseball?

This is, without a doubt, one the strangest days in the history of Toronto sports. I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

He was also just named Executive of the Year lol.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Look at the players the Royals have developed. The Blue Jays have certainly traded their fair share of prospects, but the development has been a source of disappointment for me. Which is why Pillar's emergence has been such a nice surprise.

KC's player development has been underwhelming given where they drafted these players on their roster:

Alex Gordon - 4th overall
Mike Moustakas - 2nd overall
Eric Hosmer - 3rd overall
Luke Hochevar - 1st overall

While Hosmer, Moustakas, and Gordon have been good players I don't think they've lived up to their potential by any means .. And Hochevar has busted as a starter ... Needless to say they couldn't get a bona fide star out of four top 5 draft picks and that doesn't seem too impressive to me in terms of player development.

They've had good success in their amateur free agent signings though:

Salvador Perez
Yordano Ventura
Kelvin Herrera

 

[Fantomas]

Anyone would of won by adding Price, Tulo, Hawkins, Revere and Lowe at the deadline. Not as many would of been willing to pay the price to get them all.

That said, I too have been irritated by the liberal use of the farm to augment the major league team when the truth is, he misused the teams large budget acquiring imperfect players in past offseasons.

Furthermore, in spite of the seeming success of this past season, what happens now if Encarnacion and Bautista suddenly regress?

If the Blue Jays wind up rebuilding because of their aging sluggers, this will be on Anthopoulos.

If Price winds up outside of the price range, the Jays are also looking at a less-than-stellar rotation.

Although I am glad that the Jays made the post-season, I am not convinced that Anthopoulos did the best thing for this team going forward.

 

[Muston Atthews]

You said they won one less game, yet missed the playoffs. How would that even make sense? It's not fact checking, it's knowing how the baseball playoff system works. What you said would never make sense, especially considering you know we finished second in the AL.

Then you moved the goal posts and stated something else. Everyone was talking about his entire tenure as our GM and when you were yet again proven wrong you decide to move the goal posts one more time to try to prove your point. Whatever helps your argument.

I read a fact earlier in the day about the Indians finishing one game behind the Blue Jays in 2011 and for whatever reason I got confused and posted it as if it was this year. It was a simple mind slip. The conversation was about the Jays playing in a tougher division than the Indians from 2010-2015, which isn't really true. I was arguing two different points and without reading back, I probably mixed up the person I was talking to, or forgot to quote his other post.

There was a conversation about Shapiro tenure throughout the last few years vs Anthopolous and there was a conversation about how the Central is a much easier division than the East over the last few years. You seem the one confused here and if you had followed the conversation instead of just jumping in with a snarky comment you would have understood this. I can admit my slip, can you?

 

[metafour]

He has nixed deals before and had a 5 year cap on FA signings. How is that having zero say in the actual makeup of the baseball roster? Alex had to ask him to make any big time deals.

Again, that is all FINANCIAL. Beeston set FINANCIAL parameters.

Here is the gross difference:

AA to Beeston: "Hey, I want to trade young assets to get David Price on a half-season rental, is that OK?"
Beeston to AA: "Well, we can accommodate his remaining salary under our payroll. OK."

AA to Shapiro: ""Hey, I want to trade young assets to get David Price on a half-season rental, is that OK?"
Shapiro to AA: "Since we aren't likely to win a bidding war on the open market for an aging pitcher like Price, I don't agree with trading a pitcher like Norris whom we will need in our depleted rotation moving forward. If you want to win now, go find a pitching option that is under team control for more than half a season".

 

[Muston Atthews]

He wasn't run out of town...this is akin to a star player opting out of his last year of his deal so he can test free agency after having a monster season far above expectations that might make him more valuable than ever.

I think AA looks at the available GM pool and sees a chance to for a Theo Epstein opportunity to become the overseer of everything. And now is his chance to make that massive power grab and the money that comes with it.

Good analogy.

 

[Woodman19]

Furthermore, in spite of the seeming success of this past season, what happens now if Encarnacion and Bautista suddenly regress?

If the Blue Jays wind up rebuilding because of their aging sluggers, this will be on Anthopoulos.

If Price winds up outside of the price range, the Jays are also looking at a less-than-stellar rotation.

Although I am glad that the Jays made the post-season, I am not convinced that Anthopoulos did the best thing for this team going forward.

I think the best thing going forward would be to deal Jose and Edwin for a plethora of young depth and then augment the team with some short term free agents so we can still compete while shielding the farm from major subtractions.

 

[tokyoite]

People need to relax. You're just overreaticng to it. Shapiro hasn't even assumed a post yet. Still, you want him fired ? Shapiro was probably angry at the amount of prospects AA gave up. He'll hire a new GM.
Don't get me wrong. I haven't said I support Sharpiro or like him.
I don't care if I'm a minority here.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Again, that is all FINANCIAL. Beeston set FINANCIAL parameters.

Here is the gross difference:

AA to Beeston: "Hey, I want to trade young assets to get David Price on a half-season rental, is that OK?"
Beeston to AA: "Well, we can accommodate his remaining salary under our payroll. OK."

AA to Shapiro: ""Hey, I want to trade young assets to get David Price on a half-season rental, is that OK?"
Shapiro to AA: "Since we aren't likely to win a bidding war on the open market for an aging pitcher like Price, I don't agree with trading a pitcher like Norris whom we will need in our depleted rotation moving forward. If you want to win now, go find a pitching option that is under team control for more than half a season".

You're creating narratives here. Shapiro would also have to deal with financial parameters. The only thing that would have changed would be the smaller deals that AA would want to make. Like I said, I don't see Shapiro stepping on AA's toes for the sake of stepping on AA's toes. It seems that AA didn't want to work under anyone anymore.

 

[Fantomas]

He wasn't run out of town...this is akin to a star player opting out of his last year of his deal so he can test free agency after having a monster season far above expectations that might make him more valuable than ever.

I think AA looks at the available GM pool and sees a chance to for a Theo Epstein opportunity to become the overseer of everything. And now is his chance to make that massive power grab and the money that comes with it.

I am sure that others have pointed out that Keith Law has claimed that AA leaving is due to his frustration with Shapiro's role (which will involve more control over the team than AA would prefer).

How can Law be so sure? AA could have stuck around for another year to see where things went and to work out a relationship with Shapiro.

Perhaps AA felt that he deserved a massive contract from the Blue Jays. Are the people here sure that they would be happy to see Rogers pay AA a massive amount of money? Where do you draw the line?

 

[King Mapes]

KC's player development has been underwhelming given where they drafted these players on their roster:

Alex Gordon - 4th overall
Mike Moustakas - 2nd overall
Eric Hosmer - 3rd overall
Luke Hochevar - 1st overall

While Hosmer, Moustakas, and Gordon have been good players I don't think they've lived up to their potential by any means .. And Hochevar has busted as a starter ... Needless to say they couldn't get a bona fide star out of four top 5 draft picks and that doesn't seem too impressive to me in terms of player development.

They've had good success in their amateur free agent signings though:

Salvador Perez
Yordano Ventura
Kelvin Herrera

Moose especially. I remember the hype surrounding him was huge. Baseball prospects seem to do that a lot though, which is why I didn't mind going all in this year. Remember the Justin Smoak and Colby Rasmus hype? Both pre-Jays of course.

 

[Fantomas]

People need to relax. You're just overreaticng to it. Shapiro hasn't even assumed a post yet. Still, you want him fired ? Shapiro was probably angry at the amount of prospects AA gave up. He'll hire a new GM.
Don't get me wrong. I haven't said I support Sharpiro or like him.
But, it is pathetic to see people whining like a child. I don't care if I'm a minority here.

Is it possible that AA sacrificed the Blue Jays farm as much as he did because he knew he wouldn't be coming back?

 

[Fantomas]

I think the best thing going forward would be to deal Jose and Edwin for a plethora of young depth and then augment the team with some short term free agents so we can still compete while shielding the farm from major subtractions.

I wanted Jose and Edwin dealt a long time ago, because I anticipated a rebuild process.

However after this past season's run perhaps I was wrong. Maybe. It depends how much value we should place on making the AL finals.

I think that dealing Bautista and Encarnacion is very risky business now on the heels of the playoff run, because it would alienate the fans.

I wouldn't be surprised if this year's playoffs turned out to be a double-edged sword.

 

[Morguee]

Is it possible that AA sacrificed the Blue Jays farm as much as he did because he knew he wouldn't be coming back?

AA went all in because if he had another year of missing the playoffs he was probably gone anyway. Damned if he did damned if he didn't - go out in a blaze of glory.

 

[Discoverer]

Look at the players the Royals have developed. The Blue Jays have certainly traded their fair share of prospects, but the development has been a source of disappointment for me. Which is why Pillar's emergence has been such a nice surprise.

I'm sure the Jays developmental record would look better if they had so many top-3 picks, too.

Even so, Dalton Pompey was drafted in the Jays first draft under Anthopoulos. He's currently 22 years old. If you expected more out of the Jays drafting the last 5-6 years, you don't understand the prospect development in baseball.

Here are the positive WAR contributions at the MLB level for all players drafted by the Royals since 2010 (when AA took over in Toronto):

2010: Christian Colon (1.3), Kevin Chapman (0.8), Jon Gray (0.2)
2011:
2012:
2013:
2014: Brandon Finnegan (0.8)

And the Jays:

2010: Aaron Sanchez (3.2), Noah Syndergaard (2.5), Justin Nicolino (0.3), Sam Dyson (1.6), Dalton Pompey (0.7), Kris Bryant (6.0)
2011: Daniel Norris (0.5), Anthony DeSclafani (1.0), Aaron Nola (1.8), Kevin Pillar (5.9)
2012: Marcus Stroman (3.2)
2013: Kendall Graveman (1.3)
2014:

 

[Fantomas]

I'm sure the Jays developmental record would look better if they had so many top-3 picks, too.

Even so, Dalton Pompey was drafted in the Jays first draft under Anthopoulos. He's currently 22 years old. If you expected more out of the Jays drafting the last 5-6 years, you don't understand the prospect development in baseball.

Here are the positive WAR contributions at the MLB level for all players drafted by the Royals since 2010 (when AA took over in Toronto):

2010: Christian Colon (1.3), Kevin Chapman (0.8), Jon Gray (0.2)
2011:
2012:
2013:
2014: Brandon Finnegan (0.8)

And the Jays:

2010: Aaron Sanchez (3.2), Noah Syndergaard (2.5), Justin Nicolino (0.3), Sam Dyson (1.6), Dalton Pompey (0.7), Kris Bryant (6.0)
2011: Daniel Norris (0.5), Anthony DeSclafani (1.0), Aaron Nola (1.8), Kevin Pillar (5.9)
2012: Marcus Stroman (3.2)
2013: Kendall Graveman (1.3)
2014:

Good points. You guys are right. I wouldn't count Bryant though. They didn't and couldn't sign him.

 

[Woodman19]

At least Alford should be 100% untouchable now, thankfully.