Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

[OilersFanatics505]

Well kucherov's team is barely a wildcard team this year so i guess you're voting for mack then.

This is the part where the narrative shifts to “well he carried the team so he deserves it”

 

[Video Nasty]

Well duh. Nobody has won the hart + Conn Smythe in the same year since Gretzky. If anyone were to, it would be a major talking point.

However, I do agree with that the other poster is saying and it's true for any of the contenders for individual hardware. If you win the cup , you'll be the happiest. If you are runner up for an award and win the cup? Amazing feeling all summer.

If you win the hart or AR and don't win the cup? Still amazing but that player is probably going to be pretty upset with the season as a while because we have heard basically every superstar ever talk about how it's cup or bust and if you don't win that, it's all that's on your mind. Any superstar to play the game would take a top 3 hart finish and a cup over the award and no cup.

That said , it obviously matter for greatness lists /career accomplishments to win them. But to the players themselves they would all prefer to take the cup while also putting up an MVP caliber season. That's just the way it is. You play to win. It's a team sport, but any superstar who doesn't win the cup will blame themselves

We’re fans giving our take on their placement in hockey history and how they stack up against other greats. Why are you three getting so hung up on how they feel? My original point is that the guy already has a Cup. Now what’s going to let him be compared more favorably against other all-timers?

More individual hardware which he has a very real chance at this season.

If you guys want to go back and forth talking about their feelings, feel free.

 

[Toby91ca]

A few key factors led to Hall squeaking out a win over MacKinnon in 2018, when compared directly to each other.

1. Hall had a 26 game point streak during the second half of the season.

2. The Avs were in playoff position all season and nearly tumbled out, until they beat the Blues on the final day of the season. Meanwhile, the Devils got hot down the stretch and got in at the end. Voters simply love that storyline.

3. MacKinnon was cold down the stretch when the Avs were faltering. He went 9 games without a goal and had 6 points while the Avs lost 6 of 9. To his credit, he had the game winning goal and added an assist in the clinching win on the final day of the season. Meanwhile, the Devils won 7 of their final 8 with Hall scoring 7 goals and 15 total points.

4. While better than the last place Avs the prior season, the Devils were last in the East and had the second fewest wins in the league. They had their own big turnaround factoring in as well.

I ultimately wish MacKinnon had won it so people wouldn’t talk about he got robbed over and over and we didn’t have to deal with him potentially winning it this season no matter what because he “deserves” it.

The fact is, it was his own fault he lost it. Not going cold down the stretch would have buffered him against Hall’s hot streak and would have certainly gave him the extra necessary votes.

These aren't really great reasons, especially 3 and 4. For 1 and 2, I can see that playing into it, in my mind, not great reasons, but can see where the voters would get drawn into the recent performance down the stretch, etc....but on balance of the season, not a big difference.

For 3, that almost highlights MacK's importance, when he went through a slump, the team struggled.

For 4, yeah NJ was bad the year before and had a great turnaround, but CO was in the same boat the year before except worse....had a better turnaround....improved by 47pts vs. NJ improvement of 27pts.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

We’re fans giving our take on their placement in hockey history and how they stack up against other greats. Why are you three getting so hung up on how they feel? My original point is that the guy already has a Cup. Now what’s going to let him be compared more favorably against other all-timers?

More individual hardware which he has a very real chance at this season.

If you guys want to go back and forth talking about their feelings, feel free.

I'm not , the point was that the players themselves value the cup more than the individual awards. You seemed to want to spin that opinion into another poster saying they thought players didn't care about hardware. They obviously do. But they are still going to be very happy to win the cup while being a finalist, much happier than the opposite.

Nobody is ranking MacKinnon above McDavid so don't worry. But it's fact that either one of them would take the cup over the hart or AR.

 

[Video Nasty]

These aren't really great reasons, especially 3 and 4. For 1 and 2, I can see that playing into it, in my mind, not great reasons, but can see where the voters would get drawn into the recent performance down the stretch, etc....but on balance of the season, not a big difference.

For 3, that almost highlights MacK's importance, when he went through a slump, the team struggled.

For 4, yeah NJ was bad the year before and had a great turnaround, but CO was in the same boat the year before except worse....had a better turnaround....improved by 47pts vs. NJ improvement of 27pts.

I’m just telling you real life events that unfolded that factored into how votes were cast, not if I agree or disagree if they were good reasons or not. If the Oilers made the playoffs, McDavid wins it or soaks up a ton more votes that further skews voting. We could write a novella about all the reasons that led to the real life results we have recorded.

By the way, when I highlighted New Jersey’s turnaround, I also acknowledged that Colorado had the worst record in the league. Again, I mentioned it because there’s no doubt that voters also took it into consideration.

I’ve had this argument before here. I’ve been constantly told that Colorado was the worst team in the league the year prior. Absolutely. But they also were in playoff position all season, which numbs some of those memories.

Again, just telling you like it is, not saying the way the minds of these voters operate is correct or not.

 

[Video Nasty]

1. I'm not , the point was that the players themselves value the cup more than the individual awards. You seemed to want to spin that opinion into another poster saying they thought players didn't care about hardware. They obviously do. But they are still going to be very happy to win the cup while being a finalist, much happier than the opposite.

2. Nobody is ranking MacKinnon above McDavid so don't worry. But it's fact that either one of them would take the cup over the hart or AR.

1. “Only two trophies matter. Stanley Cup and Conne Smythe.”

That’s what I originally quoted, which led to the double quotes after. How am I spinning anything?

2. I’m not worried. Of course I want McDavid to clean up on all the hardware, but I’m also enjoying the possible alternatives. It’s been a terrific season all-around. Otherwise I wouldn’t be in here talking about MacKinnon taking the lead in the scoring race or admiring Kucherov, just as I did when he dropped 128 points in 2018-2019.

 

[authentic]

McDavid may not may not have been playing injured earlier in the season. It’s a silly debate. Nothing has ever been confirmed by anyone. It could have been a cold streak. People can believe what they want.

 

[WalterLundy]

If he was several tiers above them he'd won the Art already. I think Gretzky would have won playing a little over half a season his craziest season, and Lemieux could generally skip 20 games or so (non Peak Gretzky years).

1983-84: EVG: 2.88, PPG: 0.92, SHG: 0.14
1988-89: EVG: 2.53, PPG: 1.06, SHG: 0.15
1992-93: EVG: 2.44, PPG: 1.03, SHG: 0.15
2023-24: EVG: 2.35, PPG: 0.64, SHG: 0.10

‘93 Lemieux (10/6/92 to Jan 5 1993) in ‘24 levels
40 GP: 85 PTS (2.13)
(57 EVP, 24 PPP, 4 SHP)

1989 Lemieux first 42 games: (10/7/88 to 1/15/89) in ‘24 levels:
42 GP: 89 PTS (2.12)
(49 EVP, 33 PPP, 7 SHP)

McDavid from 11/24/23 to 3/5/24:
42 GP: 83 PTS (1.98)
(58 EVP, 24 PPP, 1 SHP)

McDavid has been (since Nov 24) producing at a 93% relative match to 1993 Lemieux before he missed time. Most consider this or 1989 to be his best year so that speaks volumes yet he still hasn’t taken the overall points lead. In 1989 he produced at virtually the same adjusted to ‘24 rate as his ‘93 self. Even if he were producing at the 2.13 figure he would have only 6 more points than he currently has and be tied for second in scoring and 4 points back total.


Wayne Gretzky first 42 games 1983-84
(10/5/84 to 1/7/84) in ‘24 levels:
42 GP: 100 PTS (2.38)
(69 EVP, 22 PPP, 9 SHP)

This is the only season where a 42 game stretch from game 1 would have him firmly in the lead for total points right now given his start and injury. It would have taken the peak performance of the greatest player in history to have the current Ross lead from his injury recovery to now. The fact he has the ppg lead is a miracle in itself and took a stretch that is close to peak Mario to even accomplish the feat.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Well kucherov's team is barely a wildcard team this year so i guess you're voting for mack then.

If the season ended today MacK would absolutely have my vote. Lots of games left though.

 

[Juxta Position]

MacK literally finished 4th in scoring. Kucherov finished higher and led the bolts to the best record in the east. Mackinnon is lucky he road a narrative.

How exactly did he ride a narrative when he didn't win? Kucherov had too much help in Tampa that year, the same reason Draisaitl has been left out of MVP conversations every year minus the year he won when McDavid got hurt.

It's funny how people are willing to write players off due to teammates, until it comes to one of the players on THEIR team, then it's somehow a screw job.

That was MacKinnon's Hart to win that year, but Taylor Hall played in the East (and yes that matters, as the majority of the voting media is asleep when Colorado, or Edmonton for that matter, play their games) and the Devils squeaked into the playoffs, so the media had a great narrative to latch on to.

 

[phrenssoa]

No he was hurt and the team will not disclose what it is unless it was very serious (he missed two games during this stretch). For those that watch the Oilers regularly it was clear he was not snake bitten or lacked motivation. He was definitely playing through an injury...

I watch literally every Oilers game, and there is nothing that made it 100% clear. It’s all conjecture. As I said it’s a silly debate.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

How exactly did he ride a narrative when he didn't win? Kucherov had too much help in Tampa that year, the same reason Draisaitl has been left out of MVP conversations every year minus the year he won when McDavid got hurt.

It's funny how people are willing to write players off due to teammates, until it comes to one of the players on THEIR team, then it's somehow a screw job.

That was MacKinnon's Hart to win that year, but Taylor Hall played in the East (and yes that matters, as the majority of the voting media is asleep when Colorado, or Edmonton for that matter, play their games) and the Devils squeaked into the playoffs, so the media had a great narrative to latch on to.

Because the narrative that year seemed to be 'best player on fringe team with no help' but as we have seen before, often the media falls in love with the 'best player on the best team' narrative as well.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Don't know if I would call a 100+ assist season "cute".

Know what is cute is scoring 28 goals and 84 points in a full season and losing the Ross to Jamie Benn.

2 smythes 3 cups and a golden goal is pretty dashing as well

View attachment 831083

I wouldnt leave this site without saying good bye to good ol video nasty. Dont worry

 

[Ncit3]

Well kucherov's team is barely a wildcard team this year so i guess you're voting for mack then.

It's funny to see the NHL vs NBA narratives. If you're a play-in team in the NBA and putting up MVP numbers, you're not even in the conversation. In the NHL? You're "carrying your team".

 

[wetcoast]

I watch literally every Oilers game, and there is nothing that made it 100% clear. It’s all conjecture. As I said it’s a silly debate.

Funny that there are numerous reports at the time of his injury that it would be for 1-2 weeks eh?

Yet he comes back early and has, without looking the worst 6 game stretch of his career going 60-0-2-2 after starting the season with this line 5-2-6-8.

Sure it's absurd to suggest that he was playing through an injury and that's before actually watching him right?

 

[devo09]

I watch literally every Oilers game, and there is nothing that made it 100% clear. It’s all conjecture. As I said it’s a silly debate.

Come on bro that’s crazy. He literally missed games due to injury and then when he came back he was barely able to skate. Over the course of a couple weeks he probably dumped the puck in instead of trying to beat a defender more than he had in his entire career.

 

[Czechboy]

 

[Czechboy]

Smart play... almost scored a hillarious goal.

 

[phrenssoa]

Come on bro that’s crazy. He literally missed games due to injury and then when he came back he was barely able to skate. Over the course of a couple weeks he probably dumped the puck in instead of trying to beat a defender more than he had in his entire career.

I will need to see his dump-ins/60 to believe it.

In all seriousness I don’t recall him dumping the puck in an abnormal amount. And until hear it from the horse’s mouth I will remain skeptical. I’m not saying he wasn’t playing injured, I’m just saying no one knows. People are too quick to state it as a fact.

 

[TheGuiminator]

At 27 years old, McDavid has now more 100 points season than Crosby. Incredible

 

[lionsDen]

I don’t care about the individual stuff, just win another cup Mack. Ty

 

[Video Nasty]

This is the third time in his career that McDavid has hit 100 points in less than 60 personal games in a season.

53 games in 2020-2021
56 games in 2022-2023
59 games in 2023-2024

At 27 years old, McDavid has now more 100 points season than Crosby. Incredible

I feel like he’s going to have end up with at least as many 100 point seasons as Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin combined (x13).

 

[SillyRabbit]

Kuch is going insane right now but McDavid is inevitable.

He has 5 games in hand.

I'd imagine once the teams are even in games played, McDavid will be within 3-4 points of Kucherov with more than half the season remaining.

Hope it's a battle down to the end but I do expect McDavid to win by 10+ points.

Patting myself on the back for this one.

McDavid is so good.

Kucherov and MacKinnon are having incredible seasons yet McDavid just keeps gaining on them...

 

[VainGretzky]

He would already be tied with Dionne if it was not for the shortened Covd season he had 97points in 64 games

 

[Czechboy]

He would already be tied with Dionne if it was not for the shortened Covd season he had 97points in 64 games

Agreed.. I want him to catch Lemieux!