NHL & Vegas Part Deuces Wild: Betting it all on Black (Knights)

[IntangiBo]

Bettman also said he wasn’t concerned about putting a team in a city that has legal sports betting, noting that hockey is not nearly as heavily bet as basketball and football.

I can bet on sports legally in Vancouver.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

... ya, I hear ya DuckJet. I have friends who live in Vegas and though not within the context of hockey or even sports in general, they rail against the sort of stereotypical stigma that Vegas suffers from. That sort of thing not unique to Las Vegas, affects places like Whistler, Aspen, Monaco & other major destinations. Ive lived in a couple of them & whenever anyone asks where your from or live, incorrect assumptions made.

(oooh, if you've lived in Monaco, K, then I have made some incorrect assumptions )

And every time I've gone to Vegas the last 20 years, whenever I go more than a few hundred yards from the strip, I always think the same thing: "This is just like Arizona" Streets look the same, houses look the same, people look the same. If anything, even fewer trees. Higher altitude (2000'), but not like Denver or SLC.

If I ever get to Monaco, on the other hand...

 

[DyerMaker66*]

So does comparing who 'deserves' it more fit that context when it includes potshots?

What you call discovery I call the **** of the natural world and what you call a potshot I call reality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and repeat "hockey will thrive in Phoenix" all you like, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially when all evidence suggests the contrary.

 

[Fenway]

Orlando is similar to Vegas in the sense that the theme parks drive the economy but you get into the neighborhoods it looks like any other Florida city.

MLS told Vegas that they are not in their plans anytime soon.

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/28097789/major-league-soccer-passes-on-las-vegas-team

Meanwhile you have to think the NBA is watching this closely. I can see both the NHL and NBA expanding into both Vegas and Seattle at the same time.

But given the problems Vegas had with the NBA All Star Game a few years back do the casinos want the NBA in town?

(oooh, if you've lived in Monaco, K, then I have made some incorrect assumptions )

And every time I've gone to Vegas the last 20 years, whenever I go more than a few hundred yards from the strip, I always think the same thing: "This is just like Arizona" Streets look the same, houses look the same, people look the same. If anything, even fewer trees. Higher altitude (2000'), but not like Denver or SLC.

If I ever get to Monaco, on the other hand...

 

[KevFu]

A few weeks ago Strombo had an interview with 3 NHL owners and in it Jacobs said 'If you want a team discuss it with Gary and do not use the media'.

Foley was told to do the ticket drive. Quebec doesn't need to do so because everyone knows the arena would be sold out in minutes when and if the day comes.

Quebecor has been told to keep a low profile. Bettman's only recent remarks on Quebec is he has been following the arena's progress via webcam.

Bettman has some sort of strategy for Quebec City but he won't tip his hand. The only thing Gary can't control is the arena situation in Seattle.

I feel like the NHL knows what everyone knows about Quebec, and I really think the league is planning on QC being team #33 or #34 sooner rather than later. 3 West, 1 East. I have no "evidence" of this besides common sense.

Hate him, or hate him a lot, Bettman has always, always, always been openly idealistic about teams staying put whenever possible first (PIT, EDM, NYI, PHX), being re-established in markets that had the NHL before if realistic (MIN and ATL expansion, "if the Coyotes move anywhere it should be WIN," Thrashers to WIN), and fulfilling markets that nearly got it before (NAS expansion after NJ rumors; CBJ expansion after HART rumors; now Seattle after Coyotes rumors?)

I do not doubt that Gary Bettman WANTS a team in Quebec for the same reason I want a team in Quebec: It's the RIGHT THING TO DO. How to get it done is the issue.

This is not a Quebec thread. It is not a Winnipeg thread. It is not a "my ticket drive can sell more than your ticket drive" thread.

Keep discussion to subjects related to the NHL and Las Vegas.

I feel that while 31 teams is potentially do-able, short term, if the NHL expands to Vegas, they're not going to sit at 31 for a prolonged period of time. I feel like the amount of time they'll be at 31 will be far less than the amount of time the NHL has 32, 34 or 36 teams.

That being said, I totally get that the discussion should be more "Vegas, or Vegas AND" than "But Quebec, and Vegas VERSUS"

 

[TheLegend]

What you call discovery I call the **** of the natural world and what you call a potshot I call reality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and repeat "hockey will thrive in Phoenix" all you like, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially when all evidence suggests the contrary.

It doesn't mean anything other than putting your own prejudices first in a discussion gets you nowhere real fast.

 

[XX]

What you call discovery I call the **** of the natural world and what you call a potshot I call reality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and repeat "hockey will thrive in Phoenix" all you like, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially when all evidence suggests the contrary.

Hockey is already thriving in the valley, if ASU and the high school ranks are anything to go by. It's doing great. I've heard a lot of personal, unsubstantiated opinions about the NHL team in Phoenix but they're still there. And the Coyotes are about to be joined by another Pacific team - a team that will help cut down on travel. Great news for everyone except those who wish to see other fans go without.

 

[Killion]

Meanwhile you have to think the NBA is watching this closely. I can see both the NHL and NBA expanding into both Vegas and Seattle at the same time.

But given the problems Vegas had with the NBA All Star Game a few years back do the casinos want the NBA in town?

Truth be told I think theyd rather have the NBA than the NHL Fenway. Path of less resistance, more popular sport, bigger numbers involved. The NHL like it or not is still 4th tier and entry level into the Big 4. If as you suggest the NBA is eying Vegas and depending on how the NHL fares which if moderately successful they then decide to give it a shot that would then be the Death Knell for the Las Vegas Knights or whatever they wind up being called of the National Hockey League. Its a stretch to think that Vegas has enough corporate heft to support one major league team through thick & thin but if you look at it glass half full & give it the benefit of the doubt, if the team works its butts off in building community support, its just possible they do manage to pull it off. Financial treadwaters but still, with the business model in the NHL doable. But if you add another team to the mix in the far more popular NBA, your going to run the NHL right outta town. Theres no way that market can support both and for sure the NHL would be wiped out, collateral damage. There can only be one Highlander. Same can be said for many markets, Milwaukee, even Seattle I have questions about that.

 

[cutchemist42]

Truth be told I think theyd rather have the NBA than the NHL Fenway. Path of less resistance, more popular sport, bigger numbers involved. The NHL like it or not is still 4th tier and entry level into the Big 4. If as you suggest the NBA is eying Vegas and depending on how the NHL fares which if moderately successful they then decide to give it a shot that would then be the Death Knell for the Las Vegas Knights or whatever they wind up being called of the National Hockey League. Its a stretch to think that Vegas has enough corporate heft to support one major league team through thick & thin but if you look at it glass half full & give it the benefit of the doubt, if the team works its butts off in building community support, its just possible they do manage to pull it off. Financial treadwaters but still, with the business model in the NHL doable. But if you add another team to the mix in the far more popular NBA, your going to run the NHL right outta town. Theres no way that market can support both and for sure the NHL would be wiped out, collateral damage. There can only be one Highlander. Same can be said for many markets, Milwaukee, even Seattle I have questions about that.

Yep, NBA would destroy the NHL in LV if it happened I agree. I mean, if I had to put in even $1000 of my own money for hypothetical NBA-LV vs NHL-LV, I think most would feel more comfortable putting our money into the NBA franchise.

Now what would the NBA charge LV-NBA potential owner for expansion?

And yeah, I know the Seattle posters hate this mention, but Seattle has a lot going on already that I pondered if Seattle can have both the NBA and NHL comfortably at the same time.

 

[JMT21]

How much $$$ are the potential ST holders having the shell out for their deposits?

 

[Phil Parent]

How much $$$ are the potential ST holders having the shell out for their deposits?

10% of the league average ticket price for the various levels is the number I heard.

So if they get 10,000 deposits, they really have the full money of 1,000 tickets. I'm not going to be facetious and say most of those 10,000 deposits wouldn't convert to ST buys, because I don't know that, and people wouldn't want to lose their money. But right now, they've sold the money equivalent of 500 tickets (5000 deposits)

 

[Killion]

Now what would the NBA charge LV-NBA potential owner for expansion?.... And yeah, I know the Seattle posters hate this mention, but Seattle has a lot going on already that I pondered if Seattle can have both the NBA and NHL comfortably at the same time.

If sanity prevailed, probably about the same number we've heard bandied about pursuant to the fee for an NHL team of $450M. An amount that I think is absolutely outrageous bordering on obscene for an NHL Franchise but about right for the NBA in LV. For the NHL to extort that kind of money though, predatory, absolutely rocks a startup like this so far back on their heel's that theres a better than good chance they hit the canvas in 3-5yrs robbing them of ever having a really serious fighting chance. Theres just no way you recoup that $450M unless you can sell to someone (on or off-site) like Ballmer, more money than God, total vanity purchase.... And no, theres no way Las Vegas supports both the NHL AND the NBA, stretching it seriously thin in Seattle as well as youve already got the Sea Hawks, Mariners, MLS & a considerable number of other events & activities that the corporate & private sector, the public all wildly support. Big time question mark's hovering over combined NBA/NHL landings in Seattle. Vegas, no question in my mind. NBA would destroy the NHL. MGM/AEG wouldnt sit still for 41 event dates being reserved for a team who's attendance & sponsorships etc got wiped out with the NBA's arrival.

 

[cbcwpg]

How much $$$ are the potential ST holders having the shell out for their deposits?

Go to: https://www.vegaswantshockey.net/

Click on: "view arena diagram"

 

[cbcwpg]

The big thing to remember is that these are just "intents" not actual ticket purchases, and that's why any comparisons to what other cities have done ( the actual buying of seats ) should be kept out of this.

The deposits aren't huge, but I would say at this point all the serious buyers are in, and none of them will be walking away. So 5,000 seats spoken for would be all solid at this point. Now it's getting the rest done.

 

[IceAce]

Truth be told I think theyd rather have the NBA than the NHL Fenway. Path of less resistance, more popular sport, bigger numbers involved. The NHL like it or not is still 4th tier and entry level into the Big 4. If as you suggest the NBA is eying Vegas and depending on how the NHL fares which if moderately successful they then decide to give it a shot that would then be the Death Knell for the Las Vegas Knights or whatever they wind up being called of the National Hockey League. Its a stretch to think that Vegas has enough corporate heft to support one major league team through thick & thin but if you look at it glass half full & give it the benefit of the doubt, if the team works its butts off in building community support, its just possible they do manage to pull it off. Financial treadwaters but still, with the business model in the NHL doable. But if you add another team to the mix in the far more popular NBA, your going to run the NHL right outta town. Theres no way that market can support both and for sure the NHL would be wiped out, collateral damage. There can only be one Highlander. Same can be said for many markets, Milwaukee, even Seattle I have questions about that.

Not sure I necessarily buy that. Is there any example of a market where the NHL beat the NBA to it, but once an NBA team got established the NHL team suffered? I can't recall one off the top of my head.

Also the difference between LV and Milwaukee/Seattle is that there's no NFL/MLB presence in the city. LV defintiely has the numbers to support 2 franchises. If Buffalo can support 2 teams, so can they.

 

[cutchemist42]

If sanity prevailed, probably about the same number we've heard bandied about pursuant to the fee for an NHL team of $450M. An amount that I think is absolutely outrageous bordering on obscene for an NHL Franchise but about right for the NBA in LV. For the NHL to extort that kind of money though, predatory, absolutely rocks a startup like this so far back on their heel's that theres a better than good chance they hit the canvas in 3-5yrs robbing them of ever having a really serious fighting chance. Theres just no way you recoup that $450M unless you can sell to someone (on or off-site) like Ballmer, more money than God, total vanity purchase.... And no, theres no way Las Vegas supports both the NHL AND the NBA, stretching it seriously thin in Seattle as well as youve already got the Sea Hawks, Mariners, MLS & a considerable number of other events & activities that the corporate & private sector, the public all wildly support. Big time question mark's hovering over combined NBA/NHL landings in Seattle. Vegas, no question in my mind. NBA would destroy the NHL. MGM/AEG wouldnt sit still for 41 event dates being reserved for a team who's attendance & sponsorships etc got wiped out with the NBA's arrival.

So why is the NHL doing this? Is it simply a cash grab, because on the surface it does not seem to be a genuine way to setup a new franchise for success.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

What you call discovery I call the **** of the natural world and what you call a potshot I call reality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and repeat "hockey will thrive in Phoenix" all you like, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially when all evidence suggests the contrary.

You're bringing a personal bias to the topic. As do we all, but at least own it, all right?

There's as much evidence that adding more teams to Canada will kill the league because it will make the league more irrelevant as there is evidence that hockey will never work in Phoenix or Florida or Dallas or Anaheim (or, indeed, Vegas, but let's not get on topic, right? ).

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Meanwhile you have to think the NBA is watching this closely. I can see both the NHL and NBA expanding into both Vegas and Seattle at the same time.

Actually, I can't see the NBA expanding into Vegas for the foreseeable future, and I think that that is actually part of Bettman/BoG thought process. How often does the NHL get to be the first major league sport to set roots in a US city? I'm guessing that the BoG are banking on "first franchise" stature giving them a leg up in case the NBA does set its eyes on the Vegas market; you'd have to think commonsensically that in a market that might struggle to support two major league franchises, the original franchise would have the longevity edge.

Yep, NBA would destroy the NHL in LV if it happened I agree. I mean, if I had to put in even $1000 of my own money for hypothetical NBA-LV vs NHL-LV, I think most would feel more comfortable putting our money into the NBA franchise.

If it happened simultaneously then I would agree with you, but I look at this more as a "land rush" type of situation. Whoever plants their flag first wins.

 

[Killion]

(oooh, if you've lived in Monaco, K, then I have made some incorrect assumptions )

And every time I've gone to Vegas the last 20 years, whenever I go more than a few hundred yards from the strip, I always think the same thing: "This is just like Arizona" Streets look the same, houses look the same, people look the same. If anything, even fewer trees. Higher altitude (2000'), but not like Denver or SLC.

If I ever get to Monaco, on the other hand...

... Oh ya. A little OT, but one time I was at a Comedy Club in NY and I had like front row center seats. The Comedian was one of these guys who liked to banter with the audience, like "so, where are you from"? or "wow, I recognize you, where you living these days"? though some of it nasty as well... anyhoo, I tell the guy "Whistler" and he starts referring to me as a "Ski Boot" and I aint no granola eating ski boot I can assure you. Quite the opposite in fact though ya, I do ski..... or whenever some websites, like chatboards or media outlets talk about a team in Vegas be it NBA, NHL or whatever & they have a "name the team" type meme', well, you get all manner of derisive stereotyping, like the Las Vegas Mobsters, Las Vegas Debt Collectors, Las Vegas Degenerates & so on. Vegas & certainly the Nevada Gaming Commission has worked very very hard to throw off such antiquated & beyond outdated stereotypes. Yet its so pervasive, Bugsy Siegel, Scorsese's film Casino, just on & on. Never mind the religious right who have a problem with anyone having any fun be it gambling, drinking or whatever other delights are on offer in Sin City. That everyone who lives there works in the hospitality & or gaming sector. So really, whether someone supports this or not, bottom line is that its absolutely going to be highly entertaining when that team hits the ice, and hit it they will. Im convinced this is a done deal and as such Id much rather see it succeeding than failing. Absolutely.

The deposits aren't huge, but I would say at this point all the serious buyers are in, and none of them will be walking away. So 5,000 seats spoken for would be all solid at this point. Now it's getting the rest done.

I guess. All the laydowns have signed up. Now the real selling begins. Should be interesting to see where they wind up. Pretty sure they'll hit 10,000 + though, and as such, this really is a foregone conclusion. Weve never seen this before either, Gary Bettman not only authorizing the campaign but on-hand to kick it off. No way do you do that then renege, claiming it failed to meet expectations. No. Id say their in like Flint.

 

[MAHJ71]

Honestly, I hope LV gets a team.

Just one more excuse to go there more often.

 

[Llama19]

...All the laydowns have signed up. Now the real selling begins. Should be interesting to see where they wind up. Pretty sure they'll hit 10,000 + though, and as such, this really is a foregone conclusion. Weve never seen this before either, Gary Bettman not only authorizing the campaign but on-hand to kick it off. No way do you do that then renege, claiming it failed to meet expectations. No. Id say their in like Flint.

Would that be as in Flint, MI or Harry Flint?

 

[GindyDraws]

So, where is the current total standing right now?

 

[Killion]

Not sure I necessarily buy that. Is there any example of a market where the NHL beat the NBA to it, but once an NBA team got established the NHL team suffered? I can't recall one off the top of my head.

Also the difference between LV and Milwaukee/Seattle is that there's no NFL/MLB presence in the city. LV defintiely has the numbers to support 2 franchises. If Buffalo can support 2 teams, so can they.

Rather hard to generalize when it comes to such a question as there are all kinds of factors involved, each situation whereby either the NHL was first or second in a market to the NBA with things then going south for either or.... well, its all over the map. You cite Buffalo as an example but there your looking at a Border Town, unique situation, and they too really until just recently under finally great ownership were for much of their history not in great shape financially. Realize this is all kind of a non-answer but its a complicated, complex question. However I do stand by my assertion, opinion, that no, in the case of Las Vegas, one or the other. If the NBA rolled into town despite the GMA etc, game over for the NHL.

So why is the NHL doing this? Is it simply a cash grab, because on the surface it does not seem to be a genuine way to setup a new franchise for success.

Ya I think a lot of its driven by money, franchise value game and really thats what the leagues all about, thats why they get into it. Its short-term thinking admittedly but hey, you cant take it with you.

Would that be as in Flint, MI or Harry Flint?

Coburn definitely along with the always tired looking and gravelly voiced Lee J. Cobb.... Reckon we can do better than Doris Day though..... And what street corner is Moore out on these days.. raging against the machine....

 

[Mightygoose]

Not sure I necessarily buy that. Is there any example of a market where the NHL beat the NBA to it, but once an NBA team got established the NHL team suffered? I can't recall one off the top of my head.

I don't believe there are any markets where the NHL was first and the NBA came later. St. Louis would be the closest example of the other way around and the NBA team left. Buffalo has the NHL and NBA start at the same time and only one stands.

I don't think there are many US markets where the NHL was the first major pro team in town (off all sports). Maybe a few with that an * can be put beside.

*Hartford: They were first but that was part of a merger and the team is no longer there
*San Jose: Though part of the Bay area, they were the first in South Bay I recall. The MLS Earthquakes (both versions), 49ers later moved down, the A's...who knows.
Raleigh-Durham: Perhaps the only one to date.
*Nashville: The Oilers played in Vanderbilt for the 1998 season so would have beat the NHL by a month
*Columbus: Depends if you consider the MLS, a major league back then. If not, then the NHL is first then.

If Vegas happens, it will be first time the league will be undisputedly, first in a US market via expansion.

 

[Fenway]

If Vegas happens, it will be first time the league will be undisputedly, first in a US market via expansion.

The 1924-5 Boston Bruins say hi

http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/...ton-bruins-hockey-scrapbook-the-1920s-photos/