NHL & Vegas Part Deuces Wild: Betting it all on Black (Knights)

[Mightygoose]

The 1924-5 Boston Bruins say hi

http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/...ton-bruins-hockey-scrapbook-the-1920s-photos/

But didn't the Red Sox arrive in the scene first? Perhaps, my list was off (keyboard malfunction), I was refer to being first in all major sports

 

[The Feckless Puck]

But didn't the Red Sox arrive in the scene first? Perhaps, my list was off (keyboard malfunction), I was refer to being first in all major sports

I think Fenway was thinking you meant the first NHL team in the US, rather than the first NHL team to open a US market ahead of other major league sports.

Boston had pro baseball before hockey even became a major league sport, so there's that...

 

[IU Hawks fan]

The 1924-5 Boston Bruins say hi

http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/...ton-bruins-hockey-scrapbook-the-1920s-photos/

Swing and a miss.

 

[Fenway]

But didn't the Red Sox arrive in the scene first? Perhaps, my list was off (keyboard malfunction), I was refer to being first in all major sports

Just kidding with you. Technically the first NHL expansion team was Toronto.


Seriously it is obvious now that both the NHL and NBA look at a market as one they control in the winter and don't have to compete. Seattle will be the exception.

 

[Mightygoose]

I think Fenway was thinking you meant the first NHL team in the US, rather than the first NHL team to open a US market ahead of other major league sports.

Boston had pro baseball before hockey even became a major league sport, so there's that...

I guess so. No worries, List on Post 200 edited

 

[Mightygoose]

Just kidding with you. Technically the first NHL expansion team was Toronto.


Seriously it is obvious now that both the NHL and NBA look at a market as one they control in the winter and don't have to compete. Seattle will be the exception.

True enough on Toronto. I'll need to come up with a separate list for Canada, part of it depends, if some consider CFL a major league.

But when, the league gets closer to coming to QC (or GTA 2), I'll take the time then

 

[Fenway]

I think Fenway was thinking you meant the first NHL team in the US, rather than the first NHL team to open a US market ahead of other major league sports.

Boston had pro baseball before hockey even became a major league sport, so there's that...

Actually I misread the list - it is too cold in Boston for me this morning to go down to Starbucks.

If you look hard at NHL expansion/relocation history the only complete failures were Kansas City and Cleveland. Atlanta failed twice but not because fans rejected the product. South Florida has been bad ownership, Phoenix the ill fated move to Glendale. Denver failed once but then got a second chance and were handed one of the best teams in the NHL. Nashville and Columbus have developed a good hard core base. Carolina is on shaky ground right now but it is more because of the on ice product and future ownership concerns.

Vegas looks like it will work.

 

[Fenway]

Not sure I necessarily buy that. Is there any example of a market where the NHL beat the NBA to it, but once an NBA team got established the NHL team suffered? I can't recall one off the top of my head.

The only case of a NHL team leaving after the NBA arrived was Minnesota but that had nothing to do with the NBA showing up. In fact the Timberwolves were looking to leave in the mid 90's as well.

The Buffalo Braves moved only because they were involved in a franchise swap with Boston. From a purly legal standpoint the LA Clippers are the original Celtics franchise and the Buffalo Braves are now the Celtics.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes....tyle-when-the-clippers-were-the-celtics/?_r=0

We’re talking legalese and very fine print here, and the story goes all the way back to 1978. That year, the owner of the Celtics was a Hollywood guy by the name of Irv Levin. He wanted to move the team to southern California, but he knew the N.B.A. would never allow that to happen.

So Levin did the next best thing. He convinced the owner of the Buffalo Braves, the Kentucky Fried Chicken magnate John Y. Brown, to swap franchises.

“My understanding, as best as I can remember, is that the current Celtics team is a successor to the Buffalo Braves,’’ Russ Granik, former deputy commissioner of the N.B.A., said in a telephone conversation on Tuesday. He was the N.B.A.’s assistant general counsel in 1978.

And that would mean that the current Clippers team is the successor to the Boston Celtics?

“Yes,’’ Granik said. “In a strictly legal sense.€

 

[Brodie]

The NHL beat the NFL and NBA into Tennessee

 

[PCSPounder]

...or whenever some websites, like chatboards or media outlets talk about a team in Vegas be it NBA, NHL or whatever & they have a "name the team" type meme', well, you get all manner of derisive stereotyping, like the Las Vegas Mobsters, Las Vegas Debt Collectors, Las Vegas Degenerates & so on. Vegas & certainly the Nevada Gaming Commission has worked very very hard to throw off such antiquated & beyond outdated stereotypes. Yet its so pervasive, Bugsy Siegel, Scorsese's film Casino, just on & on.

http://lvmobsters.com/

Have an RSL fan buddy who always thought a Vegas MLS team should have a similar name and the supporters group would the "The Made Men."

 

[cutchemist42]

The NHL beat the NFL and NBA into Tennessee

Yeah didnt think of this one, because I actually thought the Oilers moved there before the Preds.

I guess Tenn is a two city state, and not sure how shared the two cities are considered. Also, would Nashville have been on the NBA's mind if the Preds never happened? Was it a situation where first team gets Nashville, the other league lands Memphis? (I know its 3 hours apart, but Memphis to me would seem like a no-no for NHL)

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Yeah didnt think of this one, because I actually thought the Oilers moved there before the Preds.

I think the Oilers/Titans beat the Preds to the state by a couple of months, or at any rate got there the same time. Oilers played 1997 NFL season in Memphis, IIRC.

 

[Mightygoose]

Yeah didnt think of this one, because I actually thought the Oilers moved there before the Preds.

I guess Tenn is a two city state, and not sure how shared the two cities are considered. Also, would Nashville have been on the NBA's mind if the Preds never happened? Was it a situation where first team gets Nashville, the other league lands Memphis? (I know its 3 hours apart, but Memphis to me would seem like a no-no for NHL)

I understood the Oilers got to Memphis in 1997, but since it was a temporary stop I still consider the NBA first to Memphis with a permanent franchise...well I guess the Mad Dogs were really first

The Oilers got to Nashville (Vanderbilt) in 1998 so they would have beat the NHL by a month. The rebrand to Titans being was a year later which is why I think it could debated the NHL was in first.

 

[IceAce]

Vegas will be a failure, like Phoenix has been to this point, if it suffers the same level of business neglect and mismanagement that Phoenix has in its history. If you have smart ownership willing to put the work in, they'll be more on the level of Nashville or Anaheim or San Jose. .

This x1000. This is what our friends north of the border seem to misunderstand. Franchises in the US aren't foolproof like the ones in Canada (currently at least, how's that exchange rate doing BTW?). They need to be well run in order to succeed, and success is what's going to bring a fickle fanbase into the arenas especailly in newer markets. This is why even traditional "hockey markets" the Pittsburgh almost relocate after years of neglect, or Chicago becomes a morgue for a decade and a half. The closest US franchise to anything in Canada is probably the Rangers, but even after a certain point their attendance has fallen off in the past.

Put a group in Vegas that knows that they're doing, and not some relo cash grab like Barry Shenkarow/Burke/Ellman.Moyes, etc. and the team will do well. The hope with Vegas is that as an expansion team they can do a better job of vetting potential ownership than some misguided, desperate relo attempt tends to do.

 

[cutchemist42]

Just in that post
1) Phoenix is oversaturated
2) Not enough people in their cities care about the sport
3) Arizona has failed the NHL.

The way I know that those are biased viewpoints and not facts is because I don't agree with them.

Vegas will be a failure, like Phoenix has been to this point, if it suffers the same level of business neglect and mismanagement that Phoenix has in its history. If you have smart ownership willing to put the work in, they'll be more on the level of Nashville or Anaheim or San Jose.

This is the crux of the whole issue. I don't believe in the "natural viability of market" idea. To me, every market is a hockey market. They just might not know it yet. But to tap into the hockey market, in some places it requires more effort, more time and excellent management compared to other markets. If MLSE ran the Vegas team, it would fail. If the Sharks ownership group ran that Vegas team, it would succeed.

You have a different stance. But your stance isn't fact.

Do you feel any city is simply capable of picking up any sport then?

 

[Tawnos]

Do you feel any city is simply capable of picking up any sport then?

Yes. I do think there's a population threshold. And I do think there's a legitimate issue between population and the ability to support both the NBA and NHL simultaneously. But outside those issues, all it takes is a good building and an ownership doing the right things. And of course, in new markets there needs to be some level of success at some point. You can spend the better part of 15 years languishing like the Panthers have.

 

[TheLegend]

Coburn definitely along with the always tired looking and gravelly voiced Lee J. Cobb.... Reckon we can do better than Doris Day though..... And what street corner is Moore out on these days.. raging against the machine....

Coburn hated doing the Flint role. Quit after only two movies.

But then he goes and does The President's Analyst.

Moore's latest attempt to grab attention was right after the release of American Sniper by labeling snipers as "cowards".

 

[stchamp98]

How do you differentiate between a potential hockey market and an actual, thriving hockey market without testing the waters? Answer is: You can't.

 

[Fenway]

Do you feel any city is simply capable of picking up any sport then?

In the early 80's, indoor soccer was the rage in Chicago as the Chicago Sting outdrew the Bulls and had many sellouts at Chicago Stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Indoor_Soccer_League_(1978–92)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Sting#Indoor

1981–82 (Indoor): A dramatic and high scoring season saw the club top the Central Division pipping the Tampa Bay Rowdies to the title in the final game of the regular season. A then record attendance for an indoor soccer game in North America of 19,398 saw the Sting come from 8–4 down to beat the Rowdies 10–9 in sudden death overtime.

Even more impressive were the growing attendances at the Chicago Stadium where the Sting were outdrawing the Chicago Bulls (NBA) and fast catching up with the crowds pulled in by the Chicago Blackhawks (NHL). Besides the record crowd of 19,398 for the Tampa Bay Rowdies game, 18,374 saw the New York Cosmos game, 13,000 turned out for the regular season game against the Tulsa Roughnecks while 16,000 attended the playoff game against the Oklahoma side.

The Blackhawks were so worried about the Sting that they increased the rent and the team moved to Rosemont and vanished from the public radar and now the sport doesn't even exist.

Arena Football was the rage of the 90's and the sport vanished. Indoor lacrosse did very well for several years.

The point is if a new sport comes along that fans can go to and have an enjoyable time it can thrive.

There are enough transplanted people living in Nevada that grew up with hockey that there will be a base.

If a sport comes in and is well promoted it can thrive anywhere. Proof of that is how Nascar thrives in New Hampshire. It is one of the few tracks on the circuit that has 2 dates a season in the Nascar Sprint Series.

http://www.nhms.com/events/

 

[DyerMaker66*]

How do you differentiate between a potential hockey market and an actual, thriving hockey market without testing the waters? Answer is: You can't.

Just look at what teams are thriving right now and it can help.

I'll give you a few:
"Thriving": Hamilton, Toronto2, QC
"Potential": Seattle, Portland, Houston
"Growth": Las Vegas

 

[Fenway]

In spite of all their faults, MLSE has shown a willingness to spend on off-ice/court/field management in order to improve their rank in the standings. Brian Burke may not have fixed the Leafs but it wasn't a poor idea to hire him. Ditto for Colangelo with the Raps. You should have no doubt that MLSE would at least appear to hire the right people. Whether or not they work out is a different story: Ownership definitely puts effort into running a good organization. That wouldn't hinder Vegas' development as a team as no one expects an expansion franchise to be a contender off the bat.

MLSE is doing everything right with the Raptors.

The futility of the Leafs for almost 50 years defies logic.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

MLSE is doing everything right with the Raptors.

The futility of the Leafs for almost 50 years defies logic.

Exactly my point (except for the Leafs' terribleness). Their ownership cares how well their teams play and they have demonstrated such.

 

[Voight]

If Vegas is going to fail then I don't see why Seattle wouldn't fail either.

Vegas has 0 pro teams, give them one to cheer for and theres no reason they won't do well. People there are starved for pro sports, I hate Bettman but it would be one of his best moves as commish if he gave them a team.

 

[GindyDraws]

So, we've gone from discussing the probability of Las Vegas selling season tickets to neglected markets to soccer to the 36 hour results of the season ticket selling drive to an obese, agenda-driven filmmaker to why Arizona (supposedly) failed the NHL.

All in a day's work. Now we just get to the most important discussion; why Florida deserves to be relocated.

No disrespect to the Panthers fans, but the team historically sucks (even with a surprise Stanley Cup Final appearance), the arena sucks (warmest ice in league), and there's about 50 things you can do nighly in the Miami Beach region. If somebody proposes relocation two years from now to a neglected market, would there be a big issue?

After that, it's Arizona and possibly Carolina on the chopping block, and with Carolina, I do care because nearly a decade of losing has hurt the fanbase interest level in the product as far as local attendance goes.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

I don't see how Seattle and Vegas are equal markets (outside of arena and owner which are obviously important).