New Arenas in the KHL-VHL-MHL Part II

[BalticWarrior]

There should be no excuses for a top team that was the biggest visiting draw in the entire league, especially when it's located in Moscow. CSKA can't even fill a small arena until proven otherwise, let alone some 18,000 monster. Hell, football CSKA had ~11500 average attendance last season.

Have you considered that no matter the teams success people dont want to got a crappy ol` barn ? Moscow is huge city and you need to appeal to the masses who usually dont watch hockey- they just want entertainment and part of that entertainment is nice new comfy arena.How is this so hard to understand?

 

[hansomreiste]

Have you considered that no matter the teams success people dont want to got a crappy ol` barn ? Moscow is huge city and you need to appeal to the masses who usually dont watch hockey- they just want entertainment and part of that entertainment is nice new comfy arena.How is this so hard to understand?

This is also a factor but not a major one, I think. Fan interest is not a difficult thing to observe. As Acallabeth said, even football team hardly attracts over 10K fans and as argued here in this forum before, football is more popular than hockey in Russia. Moreover, when you have only one (or two, if there is European competitions) football match a week, two for hockey is nothing surprising and in long home stints, it can even go for 4 games a week. While I want to be proven wrong, I think the best CSKA can get is maybe a little bit over 7K and believe me, with so many empty seats, this looks really bad in a huge arena...

I don't understand why but people in Moscow are simply not that interested in CSKA and the arena itself does not seem to be a real issue. Sure, a better and more modern arena could attract more people; but it's not like they play in hell now, it's not that bad or ugly.

Though I need CSKA needs a better arena, no need to argue that. I am just skeptical about this huge one with 18K capacity, which would make arena look empty and silent.

 

[mkev400]

mkev400

IIHF attendance figures for last season:
SKA St. Petersburg 11,789
94.31%

hansomreiste
Dinamo Minsk was not able to sell out old arena as well, when new big arena cames, it was almost sold out for every game. You have to know that CSKA rink is too old, not attractive for fans.

Hmmm... A high attendance in one year is good, but I dont think that warrants a new arena. Since joining the KHL, they had an average of 10.298 with a low of 6600. Given the average attendance over all seasons I think the speculation comes a bit to early (seeing as they "only" reached an avg. attendance over 10500 four times). If they can sustain the attendance they had for the past four/five seasons for another 2-3 seasons it be worth exploring a larger arena.
(Data from: http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=9304)

As for CSKA, I agree with the argument that a new arena might be what they need to attract a larger crowd. Sort of a "build it and they'll come approach".

 

[ult]

Always fun reading about the attendance of the old, outdated stadium in relation to the construction of the new ones. Haha.

And wow, St. Petersburg had a 6600 attendance 7 or something years ago? Well, that settles it then. Then shouldn't build their own arena.

This is not how any of that works. Even if their attendance is 11789, what it means is that most, if not all, of their games were sold out. You will never have 100% attendance when you have 7-8k season ticket holders without forcing people to come to the games at the gunpoint or something.

 

[malkinfan]

This is not how any of that works. Even if their attendance is 11789, what it means is that most, if not all, of their games were sold out. You will never have 100% attendance when you have 7-8k season ticket holders without forcing people to come to the games at the gunpoint or something.

Agree, but having Datsyuk centre Kovalchuk on your 2nd line is pretty much the next closest thing you can do to having your fans at gunpoint

 

[tohaa]

Always fun reading about the attendance of the old, outdated stadium in relation to the construction of the new ones. Haha.

And wow, St. Petersburg had a 6600 attendance 7 or something years ago? Well, that settles it then. Then shouldn't build their own arena.

This is not how any of that works. Even if their attendance is 11789, what it means is that most, if not all, of their games were sold out. You will never have 100% attendance when you have 7-8k season ticket holders without forcing people to come to the games at the gunpoint or something.

Season tickets are usually counted as present whether the holders attend or not.

 

[Acallabeth]

There may be some truth in the "nobody visits the stadium because it's too old" argument, but the reality shows it's not that important. Dynamo Moscow and Barys got new arenas last season, their attendance only improved by 25% and 32% respectively, Dynamo Minsk was near those numbers after they had opened their new arena as well (IIRC). Dynamo Moscow, CSKA's closest comparable, had around 7k in average attendance, and this is with some cross-following from football fans.

The important thing is not how bad a half empty stadium looks; a new hockey arena is a very expensive construction, especially if it's 18-20k. But it will literally take decades for the attendance to reach these numbers, and by that time the new super puper arena will be an outdated "barn" too. So why doubling the construction costs? For a bigger raspil? Something around 12,000 seats will be more than enough for CSKA.

 

[BalticWarrior]

There may be some truth in the "nobody visits the stadium because it's too old" argument, but the reality shows it's not that important. Dynamo Moscow and Barys got new arenas last season, their attendance only improved by 25% and 32% respectively, Dynamo Minsk was near those numbers after they had opened their new arena as well (IIRC). Dynamo Moscow, CSKA's closest comparable, had around 7k in average attendance, and this is with some cross-following from football fans.

The important thing is not how bad a half empty stadium looks; a new hockey arena is a very expensive construction, especially if it's 18-20k. But it will literally take decades for the attendance to reach these numbers, and by that time the new super puper arena will be an outdated "barn" too. So why doubling the construction costs? For a bigger raspil? Something around 12,000 seats will be more than enough for CSKA.

Well obviously noone is saying that an arena alone can be enough to attract people you have to establish a competent marketing team to reap the benefits of the new built arena. Good arena+success in the league +smart marketing = butts in the seats.

 

[ult]

Season tickets are usually counted as present whether the holders attend or not.

They are not counted in KHL. Attendance means how many people are present at the game, not how many tickets are sold.

 

[ult]

There may be some truth in the "nobody visits the stadium because it's too old" argument, but the reality shows it's not that important. Dynamo Moscow and Barys got new arenas last season, their attendance only improved by 25% and 32% respectively,

Only 25% and 32%? Are you for real? That is huge.

 

[hansomreiste]

Only 25% and 32%? Are you for real? That is huge.

Not when your average attendance is not more than 5K. If you think 5K plus %30 (or make it %50) requires a 18K arena, I have bad news for you.

 

[ult]

Not when your average attendance is not more than 5K. If you think 5K plus %30 (or make it %50) requires a 18K arena, I have bad news for you.

No. 2-3k more viewers when you had 4-5k is huge no matter how you look at it. And it will continue to grow. 18k arena also provides a larger number of cheaper tickets and allows you to make more balanced price ranges, and bigger amount of season tickets. And allows to have 18k viewers for big games which attract much more people. The disparity in teams marketability in KHL is rather huge. CSKA-SKA could easily fill a 30000 stadium.

 

[malkinfan]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but it seems the new arena and possibly increased marketing efforts are making Dynamo Moscow a desirable club once again. I remember several years back there were many games where only around 2-3k fans were showing up to Luzhniki.

 

[mkev400]

Always fun reading about the attendance of the old, outdated stadium in relation to the construction of the new ones. Haha.

And wow, St. Petersburg had a 6600 attendance 7 or something years ago? Well, that settles it then. Then shouldn't build their own arena.

This is not how any of that works. Even if their attendance is 11789, what it means is that most, if not all, of their games were sold out. You will never have 100% attendance when you have 7-8k season ticket holders without forcing people to come to the games at the gunpoint or something.

My point was that based on the average figures I found, SKA has not outgrown the stadium.
Also, i didnt know that attendance is counted at the turnstiles in the KHL, instead of sold tickets (which is origin for the phrase sell out, meaning every available ticket is sold regardless of butts in the seats), since that is the case in literally any other league and sport in Europe. I was factoring that in my argument. If it is actually counted the way you say, then SKA is certainly outgrowing the Ice Palace which would warrant a new arena.

 

[hansomreiste]

CSKA-SKA could easily fill a 30000 stadium.

Woah, you really have to calm down.

 

[malkinfan]

Woah, you really have to calm down.

i agree with ult, why not? if the game is in st petersburg than sure.

 

[Acallabeth]

Well obviously noone is saying that an arena alone can be enough to attract people you have to establish a competent marketing team to reap the benefits of the new built arena. Good arena+success in the league +smart marketing = butts in the seats.

Yeah, yeah, and I have already pointed out that it would take so long that by the time a new arena is at least half-regularly filled it's already outdated.

Only 25% and 32%? Are you for real? That is huge.

As hansomreite already answered, not huge enough to build 20k arenas.

No. 2-3k more viewers when you had 4-5k is huge no matter how you look at it. And it will continue to grow. 18k arena also provides a larger number of cheaper tickets and allows you to make more balanced price ranges, and bigger amount of season tickets. And allows to have 18k viewers for big games which attract much more people. The disparity in teams marketability in KHL is rather huge. CSKA-SKA could easily fill a 30000 stadium.

i agree with ult, why not? if the game is in st petersburg than sure.

So we build a more expensive stadium to sell cheaper tickets, doesn't sound like a great business plan. Also, cheap tickets are just cheap because they are for bad seats least likely to be bought.

30k for CSKA-SKA is just a dream. First of all, there're too many games between them. It's not like in a football season, when you only play your rival once in your home stadium, which draws big huge crowds (and even then, Spartak is the only team whose fans regularly fill 30,000 or more). I don't think CSKA-SKA would sell out a 15,000 arena in the Western playoff finals, a 14k Megasport wasn't sold out when it was occasionaly used for the KHL games.
And second - even if by some miracle an occasional KHL game draws 30000 once or twice a season, it will still have its 5-6k of regular attendance with 25.000 empty seats. So why waste $100M more? It's just plain bad business and exactly what the KHL should go away from.

 

[ult]

As hansomreite already answered, not huge enough to build 20k arenas.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

I don't know what you people are arguing about? I didn't take the 30 000 number out of thin air, it is an actual number of requests received by CSKA for one of their play off games. When SKA were in the finals they had around 100 000 of them.

100 million more for the arena is nothing to SKA and CSKA.

FC Krasnodar has a 10 933 people average for home games, and yet their owner has built a 33 000 seat stadium for half a billion.

FC CSKA had 11 468 average last season.

New 30 000 stadium for 350 million.

See the pattern here? No one expects to fill them in a year. They leave room for growth. SKA has a 95-99% attendance in a 12k arena. They don't own that arena and want to have their own. Building something short of 18k is stupid.

CSKA wants to build a new arena for years to come in the center of Moscow. Who knows when they'll get another piece of land like that, so cheaping out on it will be stupid.

 

[Acallabeth]

I don't know what you people are arguing about? I didn't take the 30 000 number out of thin air, it is an actual number of requests received by CSKA for one of their play off games. When SKA were in the finals they had around 100 000 of them.

One.
I've already said why one is the important word here. Requests doubling+ the arena capacity for an important match is absolutely normal, or should SKA build a 100k stadium by your logic?

100 million more for the arena is nothing to SKA and CSKA.
FC Krasnodar has a 10 933 people average for home games, and yet their owner has built a 33 000 seat stadium for half a billion.

Galitzky spends his own money, SKA and CSKA spend Gazprom/Rosneft money, and if the KHL is to be taken seriously, they can't ignore the business part of the league.

FC CSKA had 11 468 average last season. New 30 000 stadium for 350 million. See the pattern here? No one expects to fill them in a year. They leave room for growth.

Not sure if serious.
- CSKA didn't even play their home games in Moscow last year, they played in Khimki.
- CSKA-Spartak games used to regularly draw 60k+ viewers in Luzhniki.
- There are Championship League and national team games that are going to attract waaay more interest than regular RosGosTerror. There are annual derbies, days of which are highlighted in every fan's calendar. Hockey can't expect any special attraction games.
- 30,000 isn't even a large capacity for a football stadium, and Krasnodar/CSKA/Spartak owners absolutely do expect fans to fill those 30-40 thousands semi-regularly. By your logic, they should have built an Estadio Santiago Bernabeu.

SKA has a 95-99% attendance in a 12k arena. They don't own that arena and want to have their own. Building something short of 18k is stupid.

SKA? For sure, they used to sell out a 7k arena regularly, they are selling out their 12k arena reguralry, they have a huge following and are the only hockey team in the city. 16-20k is a given for them.

CSKA has around 3500 regular attendance in a 7k arena, and watch this decrease again next season without Radulov. Who cares about what they want. Get a fanbase first.

 

[ult]

OCSKA has around 3500 regular attendance in a 7k arena, and watch this decrease again next season without Radulov. Who cares about what they want. Get a fanbase first.

5500 arena. Other than that - boring... It is happening, so whatever you say.

 

[ult]

Arena Metallurg and Tatneft arena got the upgrades.

 

[BalticWarrior]

Are the upgrades just the jumbotrons or is there something else?

 

[Urbanskog]

SKA already has a solid following and there's a lot of potential for more. Would be great if they constructed a new, huge arena larger than any other arena regularly used for hockey in Europe.

 

[hockeyMB89]

Are the upgrades just the jumbotrons or is there something else?

Led ramp in Arena Metallurg

 

[ult]

Looking good. People were very happy with the new scoreboard. And the arena did brighten up.