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OT: NBA Discussion Thread: Part IV

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mrmovies779 said:
Wish i shared your optimism about Frank,but i dont.I've seen a 2nd year player whos numbers have regressed across the board.35% from the field,30% from 3,and turns the ball over far too much to be a p.g.
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Are you still watching the games? Cause Frank’s skillset has clearly progressed...even if that 16 game stretch where he got down on himself, has dragged his percentages down...and he already has a positive impact on the court even with his current %s & bad team-mates.
 
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cgf said:
Are you still watching the games? Cause Frank’s skillset has clearly progressed...even if that 16 game stretch where he got down on himself, has dragged his percentages down...and he already has a positive impact on the court even with his current %s & bad team-mates.
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I dont see it.at all.positive impact on the court with his teammates doesnt mean much when the team is 9-31.
 
mrmovies779 said:
I dont see it.at all.positive impact on the court with his teammates doesnt mean much when the team is 9-31.
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His handle doesn’t look tighter, he doesn’t look more calm under pressure, and you aren’t seeing how much better he’s doing getting to the rim?...even if he’s still finishing poorly when he gets there. Hell outside of that 16 game cold streak when Frank got down on himself, he’s shooting around 40% from 3.

And his impact stats being positive on such a bad team means even more. It’s a lot harder for a player like Frank when he’s surrounded by a lot of trash or inexperienced defenders and very few guys who can efficiently score when Frank gets them the ball in good spots. Those impact #s should only be boosted when guys can’t just dump it off to open 3pt shooters when Frank is smothering them defensively / when the help that Frank shepherds guys into is actually there & able to do something helpful...or when Frank can actually pick up assists to KP with passes that Kanter & co. aren’t finishing without taking a dribble or needing a couple of whacks at to get to actually go through the hoop.
 
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cgf said:
The "not named Kristaps or Kevin" line is kinda scary unless they already have confirmation through backchannels.
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Clearing the books really means offloading THJ and/or Lee. No way around it. Max guy combined right there.

I didn’t realize the number of guys under contract for next season is so low.
 
East Coast Bias said:
Clearing the books really means offloading THJ and/or Lee. No way around it. Max guy combined right there.

I didn’t realize the number of guys under contract for next season is so low.
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The problem is that to get to two max guys we'd need to not just offload THJ & Lee, but also 2 of Frank/Knox/2019 FRP & 2 of Mitch/Dot/Kornet, at least...with Trier requiring our room MLE to retain...and that's assuming that neither max is the 35% max that KD is eligible for. So getting to 2 max slots isn't really feasible without costing us almost every asset we have. Whereas we could open 1 35% max while keeping all of our major assets just be stretching Lee, if we can't dump him using Vonleh + SRP.

And if you only worry about signing the 1 max cat in FA, you can use some of those assets that you were able to keep to upgrade THJ's contract into that third star for whom we'd be opening cap space, after going back over the cap. That way you keep a lot more of our assets to fill out the supporting cast for any hypothetical big 3 with...assuming any FAs even want to come to the knicks...plus you'd have the cap space to either add someone in the 7-12M* range on top of the max; or you could afford to keep Trier on his option & leave the room MLE free to bring some ring chasing vet in with.

*depending on where exactly our pick lands and whether it is KD or some other Max that ends up being crazy enough to pick us

EDIT:
Hypothetically, we'd be talking about:
KP
Max FA
Max FA
Knox/Frank/2019 FRP
Mitch/Dot/Kornet
Trier
vet min (x6)

- minus whatever picks were needed to trade away THJ or Lee

vs

KP
Max FA
THJ's contract as salary ballast for a trade
7-12M FA or room MLE (Vonleh / Green / Aminu / Randle?)
Knox
2019 FRP
Ntilikina
Robinson
Dotson
Trier
Kornet
vet min (x1)

- w/ all of our picks moving forward, sans this year's SRP if Lee can be dumped full using Vonleh & that pick
- minus whoever needs to be added to trade for a third star if future picks & the CHA SRPs aren't enough.
 
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East Coast Bias said:
How the **** do teams like Houston and GS afford all those guys and we gotta cut half our roster to fit two max deals?
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GSW was a cap fluke that basically can not be recreated unless gambling suddenly spikes the cap way more than anyone is expecting and guys will take discounts to play together. And Houston never dipped under the cap to sign guys, so they’ve had bird rights on everyone to resign them despite being over the cap.

We unfortunately have KP’s caphold, Noah’s stretch amount, & lotto salaried kids even if we get rid of Timmy & Lee.

That’s why I’d rather just sign 1 guy & then trade for a third guy with THJ’s salary as ballast...since you can take in 125% of the salary you send out in a trade of over the cap...and hope that some of our kids can develop into a great supporting cast or get flipped for a 4th star at some point.


PS - the actual specifics of how they got together enough salary to trade for CP3 were kinda crazy, and I don’t think are still legal cause they’d paid teams for a lot of unguaranteed minimum salary guys to throw into the deal until the #s got close enough, and the Clippers then cut all of those guys at no cost once the transaction had been processed. Since then the league has tweaked the rules on trading players with unguaranteed or partially guaranteed contracts so that for trade purposes they only count for as much money is guaranteed.

So you couldn’t use that particular trick, but you could still use minimum salaries to inflate your outgoing salaries to make a trade work where you’re adding a more expensive star. Like if we added a minimum salary to THJ’s ~18M next season, after we had gone back over the cap, we could trade for Jrue Holiday who is due 26M.

I.E. if the Basketball gods really wanted to stack the deck for us and we got Zion & KD, got a solid vet like Temple with that spare capspace or room MLE, and then traded THJ, our 2020 FRP, & 2022 FRP for Jrue, it’s possible to end up rolling into next year with:

Jrue | Frank
Temple | Zo
KD | Dotson
Zion | Knox
KP | Mitch | Kornet
+
vet minimum ring chasers
+
in-season buyout guys

add an MLE guy next year and raises for Trier, Dotson & Kornet; and even trading for a fourth max salary becomes doable before the 2020/2021 deadline. It’s all a question of maximizing capspace when you have it, & then having the assets + matching salaries to trade up once you’re over the cap...and if you can pull some steals out of your ass along the way, all the better...
 
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darko said:
Knicks will end up with Barrett.
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Please, the Knicks never move up. We’ll get Culver / Little / Hunter / Garland & be happy...or as happy as knicks fans can get. I was just saying what would be financially possible if the stars did align for us like they have other teams in the past.

That said I’d love it if we did get the 2nd pick...and then traded it...
 
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Math has never been my strong suit, but the salary cap I can't wrap my head around.

Similar to a previous poster, but I just don't understand how we can barely open up a single max slot when the Lakers can somehow afford Lebron plus Ingram (#2 OA), Ball (#2 OA), Kuzma (#27 OA), Hart (#30 OA), in addition to vets KCP, Rondo, Stephenson, McGee, Chandler, and Beaz while being in the market for another max salary player? While it feels like the Knicks have a team of scrubs (I do like our young guys, but still...) and we're stuck in some kind of cap hell/immobility?

Maybe I just haven't looked closely enough until now, but is the Knicks front office really so comparatively bad at handing out contracts? I know Hardaway's contract is basically inexplicable. But the Lance contract looks pretty bad too - he's on the books for 7.5 next season as well? ~6.5 for Noah for the next three years after this is brutal as well.

Even though I'm one of the people who want to wait on Frank, I now realize with the time frame a lot of people are talking about, he's basically going to be off his rookie contract by the time he's expected to be able to produce as a quality part of a winning team.

At the moment it's kind of hard for me to see how developing our own picks plus hoping to score on a couple of these reclamation projects works for the roster salary-wise long term. Especially if the plan is to have two max contracts on the team starting next season.
 
ponzu4u said:
Math has never been my strong suit, but the salary cap I can't wrap my head around.

Similar to a previous poster, but I just don't understand how we can barely open up a single max slot when the Lakers can somehow afford Lebron plus Ingram (#2 OA), Ball (#2 OA), Kuzma (#27 OA), Hart (#30 OA), in addition to vets KCP, Rondo, Stephenson, McGee, Chandler, and Beaz while being in the market for another max salary player? While it feels like the Knicks have a team of scrubs (I do like our young guys, but still...) and we're stuck in some kind of cap hell/immobility?

Maybe I just haven't looked closely enough until now, but is the Knicks front office really so comparatively bad at handing out contracts? I know Hardaway's contract is basically inexplicable. But the Lance contract looks pretty bad too - he's on the books for 7.5 next season as well? ~6.5 for Noah for the next three years after this is brutal as well.

Even though I'm one of the people who want to wait on Frank, I now realize with the time frame a lot of people are talking about, he's basically going to be off his rookie contract by the time he's expected to be able to produce as a quality part of a winning team.

At the moment it's kind of hard for me to see how developing our own picks plus hoping to score on a couple of these reclamation projects works for the roster salary-wise long term. Especially if the plan is to have two max contracts on the team starting next season.
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It's all about timing with those lotto level rookie scale contracts. KP's coming off his rookie scale deal, so instead of being on a set contract, we have to account for his caphold...since the max he'll sign this summer is about 10M more than his caphold...and his caphold is 3 (or maybe its 3.5, I don't remember exactly) times his previous year's salary. The Lakers kids still have another year (Ingram) or two (Lonzo) before coming off of their rookie scale contracts...both Kuzma & Hart's deals are negligible in this because they're late 1sts, but they too have 2 more seasons left on their rookie scale deals...that's the 10M difference right there. That's why LA can't just roll their capspace over again this summer without moving or renouncing Ingram.

If hypothetically we traded KP for Simmonds...who still has another year on his rookie scale deal before needing to be signed to his Max extension...then we could open two max slots without losing any of our kids to. But that difference between an upper-lotto rookie scale deal & an upper-lotto rookie scale caphold, is more than 2 late top 10 salaries (Knox & Frank) combined.

Play around with different teams on the capulator to help visualize the differences:
ShamSports | Capulator


PS Lance is actually unguaranteed next year, so if we waive him before 6/30/19 he won't take up any capspace.
 
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GordonGecko said:
Need a quantitative analysis PHD to understand how the cap works in the NBA
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I've always said, when talking about baseball in particular, I don't care how they operate the luxury tax system or if they impose a soft/hard cap, as long as they don't do some byzantine shit like the NBA. I'm not a huge NBA fan by any means but I am an avid sports fan and generally pretty knowledgeable about how all the leagues and associations work, but my god, the f***ing NBA is something else.
 
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No thanks. I just can't give up on the dream of drafting a 19yo potential franchise player. Of course if the Knicks lose in the draft lottery then of course we should have.
 
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sbjnyc said:
No thanks. I just can't give up on the dream of drafting a 19yo potential franchise player. Of course if the Knicks lose in the draft lottery then of course we should have.
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Because they haven't had a real shot at the lottery in awhile, I imagine it's a non-starter for most.

My initial reaction was hell no, but I could convince myself of it. The percentages of the lotto have to factor in here, it's a new system this year. Don't think they'll do it though anyway.
 
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