OT: NBA Discussion Thread: Part IV

[cgf]

Even LeBron has needed a competent supporting cast as he's aged. Yes those early Cleveland teams where Mo Williams was their 2nd best player were hot garbage, but so was the east & since coming back from Miami an older LeBron has needed more help.

The problem comes in with how the supporting cast fits, Milwaukee may not have a second allstar...although Middleton is one hell of a complementary star...but that team is filled with good players that fit well around Giannis in Bud's scheme. We don't have that around KP yet...although I don't think we're that far off whether we get Zion or not & whether we sign a max cat or not.

This young core could be really special defensively if we add another big wing like Knox, only this time one who excels defensively, like Little or Hunter if not Zion...KP or Mitch protecting the rim at all times, with Frank setting the tone at the point of attack, the likes of Dotson, Vonleh & Little / Hunter / Zion all being excellent defenders between that rim-protector & defensive-lead-guard, and only THJ / Mudiay / Knox being liabilities...although even there THJ isn't as bad as he has been this year when he's not so worn out on the offensive end, Mudiay is bad when not getting to play free-safety but he's not Burke bad (& may not be back anyway), and Knox has the tools to be a capable two-way guy once he fills out & gains experience.

Let KP anchor an elite D with floor spacing up & down the lineup, and we've got the pieces to grow into a perennial playoff team who can win a round or two even if we never get a 2nd allstar...if we don't get screwed by matchups.

 

[cgf]

Knicks were 10 games under 500 when he got hurt. He's obviously much better than anyone else on the team (other than maybe Knox but hard to compare such different positions) but KP says he's "tired" mid-season yet barely plays 30 mpg (I don't know how seriously to take it but it's a real bad look). He would have been 16th in the league in scoring so about league average for a team's top scorer but average isn't good enough in the NBA as top heavy as it is. His only other meaningful stat is his ability to block shots but other than that his defense is bad but to be fair that's probably more on Hornacek than him. He's a very good player but he's not the guy they should build around. They need a guy like Durant and a top 3 draft pick wouldn't hurt. I'm not advocating the Knicks should trade him but do you give him a max contract? What do you do if the Spurs offer sheet him at the end of the season?

And they were only 4 or 5 games out of a playoff spot with KP & THJ both having spent time banged up. KP's defense is bad? We were an elite defense when KP & Frank were on the court together even with bums like THJ around them. He may not be an otherworld passer like Joker, but KP alone gives us what the combo of Dirk & Chandler gave Dallas when they won it all.

Obviously adding Durant & Zion wouldn't hurt, but KP is exactly the kind of talent you tank for to build around. He is the reason big time FAs have actually expressed interest in what is going on at the Garden & we might actually become an FA draw. And there should be absolutely no hesitation about giving him a max extension for a franchise that hasn't drafted a talent like him since the frozen envelope...even if it requires some language that covers the team in case his body falls apart like with the Embiid contract.

 

[sbjnyc]

And they were only 4 or 5 games out of a playoff spot with KP & THJ both having spent time banged up. KP's defense is bad? We were an elite defense when KP & Frank were on the court together even with bums like THJ around them. He may not be an otherworld passer like Joker, but KP alone gives us what the combo of Dirk & Chandler gave Dallas when they won it all.

KP was ranked 14th among centers in defensive rating in 2017, which is average. I'm no expert so maybe there are better metrics to use. He's good in the paint but when I'm at the games I see him too often chasing on the perimeter. As I said this could be more a coaching issue and we'll see if he can improve under Fizdale when he gets back.

Here's an interesting article on it that I just found.

 

[cgf]

KP was ranked 14th among centers in defensive rating in 2017, which is average. I'm no expert so maybe there are better metrics to use. He's good in the paint but when I'm at the games I see him too often chasing on the perimeter. As I said this could be more a coaching issue and we'll see if he can improve under Fizdale when he gets back.

Here's an interesting article on it that I just found.

If you like defensive ratings look at what the team did with KP & Frank on the court together, KP's opposition-at-rim-shooting% is also informative if we're just talking about #s & trying to account for his being played out of position at the 4 to accommodate Kanter. But if we're talking about his game/skillset; KP is absolutely extraordinary at chasedown blocks, so you're not wrong that when playing the 4 & spending more time on the perimeter, he has gotten blown by by quicker/smaller guys, but opponents still shoot a poor percentage at the rim even when KP has to chase them down. Which is why he's so unique on both ends of the court.

I'm about to run out for a bit, but I feel like posting & toasting...or Knicks' Film School...have done some good in-depth articles about how special KP is as a rim protector. Especially when the perimeter D provides any resistance, aka when Frank is on the court with him.

EDIT:
Lineups Advanced

filter out a minimum # of minutes & play around with the 2, 3, 4 & 5 man combos and the impact that KP has defensively, especially when he gets Frank out there keeping there from being an open alley to the hoop on every possession, sticks out bigly.

 

[darko]

I wonder if fans will boo KP when he signs a max extension. Just like how they booed him when he waa drafted lol.

 

[cgf]

I wonder if fans will boo KP when he signs a max extension. Just like how they booed him when he waa drafted lol.

Depends on what happens in the lottery & if we sign anyone else in FA. But this fanbase is one giant rescue dog; we have been abused by the source of our love for so long that we no longer know how to trust or expect anything but disappointment

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Really good article on the emergence of Kurucs, the upward trajectory of the Nets overall, and the prospects for attracting a max free agent this offseason.

The Nets’ Latest Hidden Gem Could Help Land a Playoff Berth—and a Star

The Nets found an unlikely spark over the holiday season. Brooklyn was left for dead in early December, when it bottomed out at 8-18 and seemed headed for the Zion Williamson sweepstakes. But the team has gone 12-4 since moving rookie second-round pick Rodions Kurucs into the rotation, pushing itself to the no. 6 seed in the Eastern Conference. It’s not that Kurucs is carrying the team by himself, it’s what his presence on the floor allows his teammates to do. His two-way ability creates more balanced lineups that put everyone around him in a better position to succeed. The Nets have had to look far and wide for quality players over the past few seasons. Their latest find may finally allow them to turn the corner.
Kurucs doesn’t seem like a flash in the pan. The 20-year-old Latvian has already shown enough in his first 25 games in the NBA to make him a steal after being taken at no. 40 overall. The biggest thing is just how big he is. At 6-foot-9 and 210 pounds with a 7-foot-2 wingspan, Kurucs is a wing with the size of a small-ball center. There aren’t many guys his size who can cover ground as quickly as he does, and there are even fewer who can shoot 3s and put the ball on the floor. The intangibles are there, too. He’s a smart player who plays extremely hard, a combination that allows him to make plays on both sides of the ball. There are times when he gets ahead of himself and tries to do too much, but he usually finds a way to make up the difference.

My one gripe with the author is his focus on Jimmy Butler as the guy likely to come to Brooklyn this offseason due to the fact that they were on his short list of preferred locations when he demanded a trade from Minny. I actually think that Butler would be a much better fit next to KP (and Zion?) on the Knicks. On the Nets, I suppose you could play him at the 3 and have LeVert play the 2, with Kurucs at the 4, but I think they'd be a much better constructed team with Kurucs at the 3 and KD at the 4. And even if Durant decides to go elsewhere, I'd prefer Kawhi over Butler at the 3. (Then again, beggars be not choosers.)

cc: @MahomesIsGod

 

[East Coast Bias]

Really good article on the emergence of Kurucs, the upward trajectory of the Nets overall, and the prospects for attracting a max free agent this offseason.

The Nets’ Latest Hidden Gem Could Help Land a Playoff Berth—and a Star


My one gripe with the author is his focus on Jimmy Butler as the guy likely to come to Brooklyn this offseason due to the fact that they were on his short list of preferred locations when he demanded a trade from Minny. I actually think that Butler would be a much better fit next to KP (and Zion?) on the Knicks. On the Nets, I suppose you could play him at the 3 and have LeVert play the 2, with Kurucs at the 4, but I think they'd be a much better constructed team with Kurucs at the 3 and KD at the 4. And even if Durant decides to go elsewhere, I'd prefer Kawhi over Butler at the 3. (Then again, beggars be not choosers.)

cc: @MahomesIsGod

I don't want that guy near the Knicks.

He's a loose cannon. Total headcase.

 

[cgf]

I don't want that guy near the Knicks.

He's a loose cannon. Total headcase.

Yes...but I also feel like KP & Jimmy would get along great. I think the only reason he & Embiid aren't BFFs already is that they have to share the ball (& spotlight) with Simmons, as well as one another.

But I've long had a soft spot for him because my best friend (Bulls' fan) called him becoming an All-NBA guy really early in his NBA career. So I've been paying attention to him for a long time now given that I was far less convinced that he would ever become more than just a good player...someone like what Dot looks like he'll be...and she usually wasn't a homer when we would seriously talk about just how good some of those Bulls were.

So I tend to be more susceptible to letting him off with the "he's just from a different generation & a completely different world than all of these kids in the league now" excuse...or maybe I'm just feeling extra cantankerous myself with that "big 3-O" racing at me

 

[RangerBlues]

Please stop installing Zion into any lineup going forward

 

[cgf]

Please stop installing Zion into any lineup going forward

If you’re referring to how often I reference getting the 1st pick, I do so in the context of how much more the first overall pick costs. Making it the maximum we could have to spend just on our pick; which is usually how I like to deal with variables when playing with cap-approximations.

...cause if the math works even with the highest prices, then you can make plans without needing contingencies on contingencies for opening extra money; or to bank on getting lucky with discounts...

 

[RangerBlues]

Its just irrational. The bottom 5 teams all have the same odds of picking first.

 

[cgf]

Its just irrational. The bottom 5 teams all have the same odds of picking first.

Right.* Which is why we’re unlikely to get him...but that doesn’t mean it’s not useful to know whether getting him would mean having to lose one of our young pieces if a max FA chose to sign with us as well, or not.


*well almost right, it’s the bottom 3, with 4th having almost as good a shot as the top 3 & 5th still having a 10% shot at the 1st pick

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I think once Belmont Park Arena opens the Long Island Nets (Brooklyn's G League affiliate) will move there because it will be a more modern arena.

 

[17futurecap]

Just looking at the standings, feels like the bottom 5 are locked in, just a matter of where they finish. I know there is still 40ish games left, but with the Wizards, Magic and Pistons already at 17 wins, hard to imagine any of the bottom 5 catches them.

 

[GordonGecko]

Right.* Which is why we’re unlikely to get him...but that doesn’t mean it’s not useful to know whether getting him would mean having to lose one of our young piece of a max FA chose to sign with us, or not.


*well almost right, it’s the bottom 3, with 4th having almost as good a shot as the top 3 & 5th still having a 10% shot at the 1st pick

as much as we're unlikely to land him, at the same time just as likely to land him as anyone else and actually much more likely than 75% of the league

 

[BroadwayBlues]

In order of who I want.

1. Zion
2. Morant
3. Barrett
4. Culver
5. Reddish

 

[cgf]

as much as we're unlikely to land him, at the same time just as likely to land him as anyone else and actually much more likely than 75% of the league

That’s like saying something has a 50/50 chance of happening because it either happens or it doesn’t lol. There’s still an ~85% chance that we don’t get Zion even if we finish bottom 3 & get the best odds.

So even though our accountants need to plan for if we do get him on our books, our management can’t build their plans with the assumption that we’ll have him on the court as we are likelier to drop than rise on lotto-night.

 

[cgf]

In order of who I want.

1. Zion
2. Morant
3. Barrett
4. Culver
5. Reddish

I’m out on RJ. His playmaking disappearing the instant he had to start sharing the spotlight with Zion, is a huge red flag for me given his poor shot mechanics & average athleticism in the half court.

And Reddish being completely useless inside of the arc, might be even more worrying than his drive...or rather lack thereof. The potential is still intriguing, but his question marks have only been exacerbated this season; while new question marks have presented themselves. Little’s having a disappointing freshman year to but that has more to do with his usage, coach & rawness; rather than concerns about his abilities or mindset.

So gimme Hunter, Little, Culver, KPJ, Garland, or Morant, over either of the non-Zion Dukies...even if PGs with bad mechanics, like Morant, are a big turnoff.

 

[GordonGecko]

So even though our accountants need to plan for if we do get him on our books, our management can’t build their plans with the assumption that we’ll have him on the court as we are likelier to drop than rise on lotto-night.

Definitely can't plan like it's a certainty, but need to have a bona fide plan because there is a decent chance he could fall to us

It's not like holding a 200,000,000 to 1 Power Ball ticket, it's like an office pool of 6 people with their names in a hat

 

[Cassano]

Knox 31 pts

 

[cgf]

Definitely can't plan like it's a certainty, but need to have a bona fide plan because there is a decent chance he could fall to us

It's not like holding a 200,000,000 to 1 Power Ball ticket, it's like an office pool of 6 people with their names in a hat

Yeah. I don’t plan on having him when thinking about how the team can come together on the court, but when we’re talking about the cap; I like to work with the worst likely scenario (cap-wise) and that involves having to fit the 1st pick in instead of the 4th or 5th pick.

I don’t expect us to need the cap space for a max FA either, but knowing that stretching Lee would open enough room to afford: a 35% max; the 1st overall pick; KP’s caphold; Knox / Ntilikina / Robinson / Dotson / Kornet / Trier / Hardaway; and we’d still have the room MLE with which to bring back vonleh; if everything did go our way...takes a lot of pressure off the FO to give any real value up to dump Lee or THJ to position us to take advantage is that pipe dream did come to life. Since if worst came to worst, we would do be able to open the necessary room at the cost of ~4M against the cap in 2020 & 2021; nobody would have the leverage to bleed us the way Morey did a decade ago.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I don’t find Embids act remotely funny. f*** that guy. He’s a first class clown.

 

[darko]

Embiid is awesome.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Still cannot believe the Post calling him a bust 6 weeks into the season. Half of which he was injured for.