Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[nuck]

I don’t understand how he didn’t ask for his worth? Jack Eichel got 80 million for being a 25 goal scorer and hitting 60+ points once. Marner hit 60+ twice and then had 84 points. He went 2 picks after Eichel. The 10.9 seems like fair value but it should have 100% been on an 8 year deal, not a 6 year deal. Only Kyle can answer why he did not push for an 8 year deal at that number

I sort of agree but...170lb pass first wingers are not, and will never be as valuable as 200lb #1 centers, outside of Toronto. And to be honest. didn't everyone know the Eichel was quite overpaid? Terry Pegula had no other big money out there and Buffalo had dreams of Jack being Connor lite so what the Sabres were prepared to pay was never going to be in sync with his established value. Marner signed that monster deal and he wasn't even a top 10 scorer that year. He has in fact managed to be top 10 only once in his career and it was 10th. He has improved 5% from his breakout year and he was overpaid then.

With no Willie and say Mitch was coming off a $9.5M contract would anyone be thinking Pasta money for this guy? Wouldn't we be saying not as good as Tkachuk but we have to buck up a little for the TO tax rate so maybe $10.5ish? He would the exact same player just without the smoke of previous Toronto overpayments. Nobody else was paying that kind of dough in 2019 for wingers.

 

[Arzak]

5 years later, all of our core RFAs have lived up to their asks, and proven those contracts to be justified, which make the complaints even more ridiculous.

Nylanders' contract proved to be a good one.

The rest is barely justifiable, but you know that, that's why you are using terms like justified . Never good or great. Justified because Lou owed Mitch his bonuses and Mike was mean.

Marners current RFA contract is an abomination.

 

[nsleaf]

All players and their agents want to make as much as possible. It's silly to think a player should take less for any reason. Every time a new "high" contract is achieved, all other players smile.

 

[ToneDog]

Nylanders' contract proved to be a good one.

The rest is barely justifiable, but you know that, that's why you are using terms like justified . Never good or great. Justified because Lou owed Mitch his bonuses and Mike was mean.

Marners current RFA contract is an abomination.

Five years for our RFA core cost the Leafs almost $160m for one playoff series win. Yup "all of our core RFAs have lived up to their asks". I'll bet Shanny is very happy with the results. LOL.

 

[francis246]

I sort of agree but...170lb pass first wingers are not, and will never be as valuable as 200lb #1 centers, outside of Toronto. And to be honest. didn't everyone know the Eichel was quite overpaid? Terry Pegula had no other big money out there and Buffalo had dreams of Jack being Connor lite so what the Sabres were prepared to pay was never going to be in sync with his established value. Marner signed that monster deal and he wasn't even a top 10 scorer that year. He has in fact managed to be top 10 only once in his career and it was 10th. He has improved 5% from his breakout year and he was overpaid then.

With no Willie and say Mitch was coming off a $9.5M contract would anyone be thinking Pasta money for this guy? Wouldn't we be saying not as good as Tkachuk but we have to buck up a little for the TO tax rate so maybe $10.5ish? He would the exact same player just without the smoke of previous Toronto overpayments. Nobody else was paying that kind of dough in 2019 for wingers.

Again that is on Dubas and management. I don’t think anyone understands Dubas’ logic on this. Signing Matthews first was the biggest mistake. Like I mentioned before two out of the three should have gotten matching deals. Marner and Matthews should have gotten matching 8 year deals. At something reasonable. Maybe something slightly higher than Eichel. I think if they both get 10.5 at 8 years each I think fans walk away happy. But Kyle saying we did 6 years for team flexibility is just insane.

 

[francis246]

Five years for our RFA core cost the Leafs almost $160m for one playoff series win. Yup "all of our core RFAs have lived up to their asks". I'll bet Shanny is very happy with the results. LOL.

From a regular season stand point they have lived up to their contracts for sure. Playoffs have left more to be desired absolutely. When looking at contract value you have to look at the whole picture. Personally I think they have come pretty close to living up to their value. Their contracts aren’t the reason the team hasn’t had playoff success. Lack of quality goaltending. Dubas’ depletion of the depth by letting many good pieces walk to UFA. Keefe’s inability to help the team close out.

 

[Gary Nylund]

How can you blame an agent for trying to maximize the return for his player? It’s ridiculous. And if the player was overpaid, whose fault is that, especially for an RFA! We all admit they were over paid, so to expect them to live up to an objective overpay, makes little sense to me. Also, Marner didn’t get the same as Matthews, he got less money and gave up an extra year of UFA. Dubas letting Matthews walk to free agency at 26 freaking years old, max money and an insane signing bonus up front, come on, if you think Marner’s agent wasn’t coming to the trough. It’s all context, and the blame lies with management.

Firstly, that's just not true as I've seen people here say that Marner is "worth every penny and more".

As far as living up to the contract, if you let your agent negotiate for bushels of money, you should expect people to hold you to that standard. If you take the money, you take the pressure that comes with it, that should be obvious.

From a regular season stand point they have lived up to their contracts for sure. Playoffs have left more to be desired absolutely. When looking at contract value you have to look at the whole picture. Personally I think they have come pretty close to living up to their value. Their contracts aren’t the reason the team hasn’t had playoff success. Lack of quality goaltending. Dubas’ depletion of the depth by letting many good pieces walk to UFA. Keefe’s inability to help the team close out.

I'd say that applies to M&M both. JT's been a disappointment both ways, and Nylander has earned his money both ways.

As far as living up to their value, that all depends on how much you value the playoffs vs the regular season. For me personally, I place a ton of value on the playoffs so other than Nylander, they haven't given us nearly enough considering their cap hits.

 

[Antropovsky]

From a regular season stand point they have lived up to their contracts for sure. Playoffs have left more to be desired absolutely. When looking at contract value you have to look at the whole picture. Personally I think they have come pretty close to living up to their value. Their contracts aren’t the reason the team hasn’t had playoff success. Lack of quality goaltending. Dubas’ depletion of the depth by letting many good pieces walk to UFA. Keefe’s inability to help the team close out.

Dubas let Hyman walk because Marner was overpaid by at least 2 million. In large part because of his overpayment we no longer could afford Hymans reasonable demands of 5 million for 8 years. That extra 2 million Marner took is 40% of the asking price of Hyman.

 

[Arzak]

From a regular season stand point they have lived up to their contracts for sure. Playoffs have left more to be desired absolutely. When looking at contract value you have to look at the whole picture. Personally I think they have come pretty close to living up to their value. Their contracts aren’t the reason the team hasn’t had playoff success. Lack of quality goaltending. Dubas’ depletion of the depth by letting many good pieces walk to UFA. Keefe’s inability to help the team close out.

I have to agree with most of your points. Dubas is clearly the biggest culprit here, but part of that depth and pick depletion was the direct results of JT signings and subsequent overpayments (again mostly on Dubas, but by that point he left himself one option only, go for it now).

Keefe, I so don't understand this guy, I can't even quantify how much he's hurting us, so I just leave him out of the equation.

Objectively it's easier for someone on Pastas or Nylanders previous contract to overperform and please the fan base as oppose to someone like Marner. I even concede that it's less about Marner being greedy and almost all about Dubas being a fool .

Unfortunately, the reality is that the generous RFA contract Marner received can only be followed up by another atrocity in the form of UFA contract.

 

[LeafsFan89]

All players and their agents want to make as much as possible. It's silly to think a player should take less for any reason. Every time a new "high" contract is achieved, all other players smile.

Yeah, because other stars laugh at our stars and take team friendly deals because they know championships is a team effort; not individual regular season efforts.

 

[Notsince67]

Yeah, because other stars laugh at our stars and take team friendly deals because they know championships is a team effort; not individual regular season efforts.

Which other stars?

 

[LeafsFan89]

Which other stars?

MacKinnon, Pasta, Tkachuk come to mind.

 

[Notsince67]

1 cup among 3 players. You sure they are laughing?

 

[Gary Nylund]

1 cup among 3 players. You sure they are laughing?

1 playoff round win in 20 years says - "yeah, well you haven't won the cup either".

 

[Arzak]

1 playoff round win in 20 years says - "yeah, well you haven't won the cup either".

It's the Cup or nothing! Forget a deep playoff run ( who cares about SC finals!). It's silly, prior to last year people in Florida still talked about their 95 run and the good memories they have, despite falling short.

We never won 3 rounds. Not sure we can laugh at those reaching this milestone.

 

[Notsince67]

1 playoff round win in 20 years says - "yeah, well you haven't won the cup either".

Learn to read. He said cup

 

[Aashir]

He needs to come back and make Matthews useful again

 

[Taylor Halls Teeth]

Again that is on Dubas and management. I don’t think anyone understands Dubas’ logic on this. Signing Matthews first was the biggest mistake. Like I mentioned before two out of the three should have gotten matching deals. Marner and Matthews should have gotten matching 8 year deals. At something reasonable. Maybe something slightly higher than Eichel. I think if they both get 10.5 at 8 years each I think fans walk away happy. But Kyle saying we did 6 years for team flexibility is just insane.

So you are thinking that $10.5 was a good number for Mitch when Rantanen was wiiling to take 9.25? Too much for 26 goals and too much for a winger. You can't pay salaries no other team in the league is paying and not run into the issues the Leafs have building a lineup.

 

[francis246]

So you are thinking that $10.5 was a good number for Mitch when Rantanen was wiiling to take 9.25? Too much for 26 goals and too much for a winger. You can't pay salaries no other team in the league is paying and not run into the issues the Leafs have building a lineup.

Rantanen’s contract doesn’t matter. He signed after Marner. So I’m not even sure why people are using it as a comparable. Marner’s contract was used to help Rantanen and Point sign. Not the other way around.

 

[ORRFForever]

The Leafs can't let Marner go if it'll have this kind of impact on Matthews. I'm sure they'll find a way to sign him.

 

[ZEBROA]

When Matthwes play bad not even Marner can help him. Matthews will hit the goalie or posts anyway. But Marner could score a few goals himself and make the pp/pk better. Still far away a guaranteed win.

Stay away until fully recovered. We still get points and win most games.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nylanders' contract proved to be a good one.
The rest is barely justifiable, but you know that, that's why you are using terms like justified . Never good or great.

I used the word justified because we were discussing whether it was justified, and it was justified, both at the time and looking back on what they've done on their contracts.
All of Nylander, Matthews, and Marner ended up providing good surplus value on their contracts.
Matthews has averaged out as a 60 goal, 103 point player with top tier defense.
Marner has averaged out as a 32 goal, 102 point player with top tier defense and top tier PKing.
Nylander has averaged out as a 34 goal, 78 point player.

Justified because Lou owed Mitch his bonuses and Mike was mean.

No, justified because of how they performed during their pre-signing periods relative to the cap era history of post-ELC signees.
And justified looking back because their value and the impact they've brought is greater than their cap hits.

 

[Racer88]

@ Dekes

Marner averaged out as a 32 goal, 102 point player??????
Simple question, how many times has Marner gotten over 100 points

 

[Racer88]

I think it’s fair to say I am not a Marner fan but we cannot look at his contract in a vacuum. We have to look at the fact that we have 3 of those contracts at the same time for the same type of player (soft but skilled ) We have to lay the blame at past and present management for not rectifying this after 7 years of failure. Marner at his current contract on a properly built team is probably a decent deal

 

[Dekes For Days]

@ Dekes
Marner averaged out as a 32 goal, 102 point player??????
Simple question, how many times has Marner gotten over 100 points

I don't care how many times Marner hit some shiny irrelevant number. You can't control covid or injuries.
I care about the level he performs at, which through his contract so far, is somebody who puts up 32 goals and 102 points every 82 games, with top tier defense and PKing.