Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Gary Nylund]

It's hilarious you guys are going at it like this when a mod had to specifically alter the thread title to emphasize "player discussion not poster discussion" lol

I did mention the thread title several times but as long as someone keeps lying and making personal attacks on me, I'm going to defend myself.

You're overthinking this.

His problem is handling pressure and rising to the occassion. That's not from being relaxed in practice, we've seen a number of incredible players rise to the occassion who aren't wired like Toews.

Agree 100%. Marner's not a born leader but you can't really blame him for that as it's not like anyone else on the team is either. But yeah for that cap hit, you'd hope for what you said - handling pressure and rising to the occasion.

That is why you need to change the essence the fabric the nucleus the bosom of the team

But how? Now that everyone has their NMC's, it's hard to see how to implement change. And leaders like Crosby, MacKinnon etc. aren't so easy to find either so unless I'm missing something, we're screwed. They're entertaining to watch during the regular season and they win enough games to make the playoffs and it seems that that's enough to make a lot of people happy.

The only one on the team with real leadership qualities IMO is Rielly and he's more the quiet, lead by example type. If we could trade say Matthews for MacKinnon, that would a big step in the right direction but when teams have these leader types, they tend to hang on to them.

 

[keonsbitterness]

lol wtf is this

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I did mention the thread title several times but as long as someone keeps lying and making personal attacks on me, I'm going to defend myself.

Yeah I don't blame you there.

Just for posterity for anyone wondering it looks like about 16 posts from some back and forths got nuked.

For some reason Marner brings alot of heated discussions in Leaf circles. He certainly has had a lot in his career to talk about inside and outside of the rink. Interesting stuff none the less.

 

[Notsince67]

lol wtf is this

Call me Ishmael...

 

[Antropovsky]

IMO neither Marner or Matthews has leadership qualities the way some of these other people mentioned do. But yeah, we keep hoping they mature etc., hard to see it happening if it hasn't happened by now but as they say, hope is the last thing to die.

Matthews is a calming presence in front of the media. He reminds me a bit of Sundin. Though Matthews sometimes seems too laid back. I'll take laid back over shamble brained, self doubt and angry at media and social media. Laid back is a good trait in my opinion for a leader, hence the phrase ice water in their veins.

Matthews also has many other traits that I like in a leader. He's physically strong, he goes to dirty areas, blocks shots, consistent, has moments where his passion bubbles over... etc ear to the crowd, or pointing to the puck in the net.

 

[Antropovsky]

lol wtf is this

Teams have taken letters from players in the past (Marleau, Thornton, Desjardins, recently Wheeler). Are you under the impression leadership abilities of players isn't a topic for management in sports? Please expand on your thoughts.

Here's a list:

5 NHL players who were stripped of their captaincy - Article - BARDOWN

www.bardown.com

 

[Gary Nylund]

Matthews is a calming presence in front of the media. He reminds me a bit of Sundin. Though Matthews sometimes seems too laid back. I'll take laid back over shamble brained, self doubt and angry at media and social media. Laid back is a good trait in my opinion for a leader, hence the phrase ice water in their veins.

Matthews also has many other traits that I like in a leader. He's physically strong, he goes to dirty areas, blocks shots, consistent, has moments where his passion bubbles over... etc ear to the crowd, or pointing to the puck in the net.

Agreed. Sometimes I wish Matthews would do something over the top emotional on the ice, that just might wake everyone else up. Including himself LOL.

 

[francis246]

You're gonna get a lot of hate for this post but I couldn't agree with you more.

The fact that he's a Toronto born and raised kid but he still wouldn't take market rate and instead demanded to get paid more than any of his comparables, the nerve of his dad and agent suggesting he deserved Matthews money, still drives me nuts to this day.

The two flipped pucks over the glass in the Montreal series to cap off his mostly invisible performance after the team was up 3-1 was the cherry on top.

I'll happily eat crow if I ever see him raise a cup in a leaf jersey in my lifetime but I don't think I'll ever get the chance

He out produced Matthews point wise throughout the 3 ELC years. Why is it a surprise he asked for a similar number? The organization also screwed him out of some bonuses he would have hit. Then throw the Babcock stuff on top of it.

And why is it fair to assume that just because he’s from Toronto he’s obligated to take a discount. This is where many fans have it wrong. And I strongly believe this is where the disconnect between fans and Marner are. Why out of the three should he be the guy to take the discount? If anything Matthews should have taken less and set a good standard. He was the first to sign. Marner signing for $9.5 wouldn’t have changed anything. Kadri still gets traded, Matthews still got paid bank. So people need to let it go. Unless all 3 were willing to take less it was never going to make any difference

 

[Antropovsky]

He out produced Matthews point wise throughout the 3 ELC years. Why is it a surprise he asked for a similar number? The organization also screwed him out of some bonuses he would have hit. Then throw the Babcock stuff on top of it.

And why is it fair to assume that just because he’s from Toronto he’s obligated to take a discount. This is where many fans have it wrong. And I strongly believe this is where the disconnect between fans and Marner are. Why out of the three should he be the guy to take the discount? If anything Matthews should have taken less and set a good standard. He was the first to sign. Marner signing for $9.5 wouldn’t have changed anything. Kadri still gets traded, Matthews still got paid bank. So people need to let it go. Unless all 3 were willing to take less it was never going to make any difference

If Matthews hits RFA, any NHL team would've signed him to his contract (if they could make room). No teams lined up willing to give Marner, Matthews contract. We know Marner tried to get the same contract and failed. In fact, it's likely that no team even offered Marner the contract Dubas gave him.

Just because he produced more points, playing with significantly better linemates, doesn't mean he deserves a similar amount.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He out produced Matthews point wise throughout the 3 ELC years. Why is it a surprise he asked for a similar number? The organization also screwed him out of some bonuses he would have hit. Then throw the Babcock stuff on top of it.

And why is it fair to assume that just because he’s from Toronto he’s obligated to take a discount. This is where many fans have it wrong. And I strongly believe this is where the disconnect between fans and Marner are. Why out of the three should he be the guy to take the discount? If anything Matthews should have taken less and set a good standard. He was the first to sign. Marner signing for $9.5 wouldn’t have changed anything. Kadri still gets traded, Matthews still got paid bank. So people need to let it go. Unless all 3 were willing to take less it was never going to make any difference

No player is obligated to take a discount, and there is zero reason for anyone to complain about Marner not taking a discount. Marner can ask for whatever he wants, nothing wrong with that. Marner's overpaid, but that's on Dubas, not Marner. He was an RFA who got paid as if he was a UFA and again, that's 100% on Dubas. JMHO.

 

[Arzak]

He out produced Matthews point wise throughout the 3 ELC years. Why is it a surprise he asked for a similar number? The organization also screwed him out of some bonuses he would have hit. Then throw the Babcock stuff on top of it.

And why is it fair to assume that just because he’s from Toronto he’s obligated to take a discount. This is where many fans have it wrong. And I strongly believe this is where the disconnect between fans and Marner are. Why out of the three should he be the guy to take the discount? If anything Matthews should have taken less and set a good standard. He was the first to sign. Marner signing for $9.5 wouldn’t have changed anything. Kadri still gets traded, Matthews still got paid bank. So people need to let it go. Unless all 3 were willing to take less it was never going to make any difference

Matthews wasn't paid for his uncanny ability to accumulate points. He is paid because he is the best goal-scorer in this league. Using his point totals to compare him to Marners and saying that's why he got paid is wrong. Matthews wasn't paid because of point totals. Mitch doing Matthews point-wise is the reason to pay them the same? Strange logic you wield here.

Also, I'm not throwing Babcock stuff on top of anything. It should be clear by now this team needed some hard-ass coach to develop a spine. The idea that we are paying Mitch some kind of damage money for his hurt psyche is a bit too much (casually mentioned as a valid reason to give Mitch more money by his supporter). We fired Babcock and yet we still owe something to Mitch?

 

[DarkKnight]

Keefe was asked if it's still day to day and he said "no I'd say it's more than that at this point". Skated yesterday and today and will rest now "ramp him back up next week". Hope it doesn't linger, he's a guy that needs his edge work.

Okay back to the tire fire....

 

[francis246]

Matthews wasn't paid for his uncanny ability to accumulate points. He is paid because he is the best goal-scorer in this league. Using his point totals to compare him to Marners and saying that's why he got paid is wrong. Matthews wasn't paid because of point totals. Mitch doing Matthews point-wise is the reason to pay them the same? Strange logic you wield here.

Also, I'm not throwing Babcock stuff on top of anything. It should be clear by now this team needed some hard-ass coach to develop a spine. The idea that we are paying Mitch some kind of damage money for his hurt psyche is a bit too much (casually mentioned as a valid reason to give Mitch more money by his supporter). We fired Babcock and yet we still owe something to Mitch?

We are strictly talking about the three ELC years where Matthews scored 40, 34 and 37 respectively in those years. He was a good goal scorer but no one thought he was the best goal scorer in the NHL after those three years. So for you to come and now retrospectively try and use that in the argument that again is based off their 3 ELC years is just flat out dumb.

If you look at their 3 ELC years Matthews and Marner were very similar. Matthews being a better goal scorer and Marner being a better playmaker. Then Marner scoring 94 points in his final year of the ELC. Marner’s camp had a very strong argument for being paid relatively close to Matthews. Then on top of that, Eichel who had never even cracked 70 points got a $10 million contract extension. Yeah Marner was getting $10 million easily. It’s on the GM to try and make that not happen.

What are you even talking about? We are talking about their post ELC contracts. Their first extensions. Before you jump into a conversation make sure you read the context and follow along. No one is talking about talking Marner’s current extension. My response was to someone who said Marner should have trained a discount for his first extension.

There are many reasons why that negotiation went hard, the bonus’s snub and Babcock screwing around with Marner both played a roll in making that negotiation back then more difficult than it needed to be. If an organization is willing to screw a player out of a few million dollars early in his career you can’t expect him to then help you save a few million the first chance to extend him. That’s delusional

 

[Antropovsky]

We are strictly talking about the three ELC years where Matthews scored 40, 34 and 37 respectively in those years. He was a good goal scorer but no one thought he was the best goal scorer in the NHL after those three years. So for you to come and now retrospectively try and use that in the argument that again is based off their 3 ELC years is just flat out dumb.

If you look at their 3 ELC years Matthews and Marner were very similar. Matthews being a better goal scorer and Marner being a better playmaker. Then Marner scoring 94 points in his final year of the ELC. Marner’s camp had a very strong argument for being paid relatively close to Matthews. Then on top of that, Eichel who had never even cracked 70 points got a $10 million contract extension. Yeah Marner was getting $10 million easily. It’s on the GM to try and make that not happen.

What are you even talking about? We are talking about their post ELC contracts. Their first extensions. Before you jump into a conversation make sure you read the context and follow along. No one is talking about talking Marner’s current extension. My response was to someone who said Marner should have trained a discount for his first extension.

There are many reasons why that negotiation went hard, the bonus’s snub and Babcock screwing around with Marner both played a roll in making that negotiation back then more difficult than it needed to be. If an organization is willing to screw a player out of a few million dollars early in his career you can’t expect him to then help you save a few million the first chance to extend him. That’s delusional

Nobody thought Matthews was the best goal scorer in the league after his first three seasons? He was runner up for the rocket in his rookie season!

He literally was the best goal scorer those three year:

2017, 2018, 2019

Ovechkin: 163 gp 56 es goals .34 g/game
Mcdavid: 162 gp 54 es goals .33 g/game
Kucherov: 160 gp 51 es goals .31 g/game
Tavares:164 gp 51 es goals .31 g/game
Matthews: 130 gp 49 es goals .37 g/game

Not to mention he played with Marleau, Johnsson and Kapanen in 2019. Yes that bad of linemates, yet still scoring goals at the best pace in the NHL....all over his first three years.

No question, everybody but apparently you, was well aware he was the NHL best goal scorer after his first three seasons.

He was 2nd only to Ovechkin in all-strength goals per game over those same years.

 

[Arzak]

We are strictly talking about the three ELC years where Matthews scored 40, 34 and 37 respectively in those years. He was a good goal scorer but no one thought he was the best goal scorer in the NHL after those three years. So for you to come and now retrospectively try and use that in the argument that again is based off their 3 ELC years is just flat out dumb.

If you look at their 3 ELC years Matthews and Marner were very similar. Matthews being a better goal scorer and Marner being a better playmaker. Then Marner scoring 94 points in his final year of the ELC. Marner’s camp had a very strong argument for being paid relatively close to Matthews. Then on top of that, Eichel who had never even cracked 70 points got a $10 million contract extension. Yeah Marner was getting $10 million easily. It’s on the GM to try and make that not happen.

What are you even talking about? We are talking about their post ELC contracts. Their first extensions. Before you jump into a conversation make sure you read the context and follow along. No one is talking about talking Marner’s current extension. My response was to someone who said Marner should have trained a discount for his first extension.

There are many reasons why that negotiation went hard, the bonus’s snub and Babcock screwing around with Marner both played a roll in making that negotiation back then more difficult than it needed to be. If an organization is willing to screw a player out of a few million dollars early in his career you can’t expect him to then help you save a few million the first chance to extend him. That’s delusional

Nice, half a page because I called Matthews the best goal scorer in the league? Talk about random triggers..

I stand correct, his 40 goals in his first NHL season were 2nd best in the league. My overall point stands, he was paid for his goal-scoring ability, not for his point accumulation.

If you just checked for context instead of emotional essay you would know Matthews was the top 5 scorer from the start. Marner matched his points

 

[francis246]

Nice, half a page because I called Matthews the best goal scorer in the league? Talk about random triggers..

I stand correct, his 40 goals in his first NHL season were 2nd best in the league. My overall point stands, he was paid for his goal-scoring ability, not for his point accumulation.

If you just checked for context instead of emotional essay you would know Matthews was the top 5 scorer from the start. Marner matched his points

Why would I be triggered by that LOL? I’m a leafs fan I love Matthews. No one really knew what Matthews was after three years and anyone claiming they knew he would be what he is now after his first three years is a bold face liar.

 

[Arzak]

Why would I be triggered by that LOL? I’m a leafs fan I love Matthews. No one really knew what Matthews was after three years and anyone claiming they knew he would be what he is now after his first three years is a bold face liar.

He was SECOND in scoring. What are you talking about? Almost everyone expected him to progress.

Talk about bold face liars, do you really think Matthews was paid for his point totals ? Not because he scored 40 goals and was nominated for major award in his first year?

You argue that no one predicted the kid that was second in Rocket to win it? Good luck with that.

 

[francis246]

He was SECOND in scoring. What are you talking about? Almost everyone expected him to progress.

Talk about bold face liars, do you really think Matthews was paid for his point totals ? Not because he scored 40 goals and was nominated for major award in his first year?

You argue that no one predicted the kid that was second in Rocket to win it? Good luck with that.

I’ve been on these boards for a long time. I remember those 3 years clearly. There was a lot of doubt internally from leafs fans and especially externally after those two years of injuries whether Matthews would score at a pace like he did in his first year. In fact that was the number 1 argument used against him as a player after the first 3 years.

Why do you keep asking me if Matthews was paid based on points? That was never referenced or mentioned at any point by me. My main argument has been the Marner camp had a strong case to push for Matthews and and Eichel money. They used overall point totals/production as a strong point in their negotiation. It’s on the team to argue that Matthews is paid to be an elite goal scorer. They didn’t do that at that time back in 2019. Hence why Marner was paid more than Eichel and similar to Matthews. That’s on Dubas, not me or any other fan who is simply pointing out what happened in those 2019 negotiations.

 

[Antropovsky]

Why would I be triggered by that LOL? I’m a leafs fan I love Matthews. No one really knew what Matthews was after three years and anyone claiming they knew he would be what he is now after his first three years is a bold face liar.

Uhhh? Noone really knew? He was an extremely hyped prospect, was 2nd in goals his rookie season, first in even strength goals per game his first 3 years and was 2nd only to Ovechkin in all strength goals/per game those three year.

What more do you want lol. I'd argue that of all hyped prospects, he is one of the few that immediately lived up to expectations.

 

[Arzak]

I’ve been on these boards for a long time. I remember those 3 years clearly. There was a lot of doubt internally from leafs fans and especially externally after those two years of injuries whether Matthews would score at a pace like he did in his first year. In fact that was the number 1 argument used against him as a player after the first 3 years.

Why do you keep asking me if Matthews was paid based on points? That was never referenced or mentioned at any point by me. My main argument has been the Marner camp had a strong case to push for Matthews and and Eichel money. They used overall point totals/production as a strong point in their negotiation. It’s on the team to argue that Matthews is paid to be an elite goal scorer. They didn’t do that at that time back in 2019. Hence why Marner was paid more than Eichel and similar to Matthews. That’s on Dubas, not me or any other fan who is simply pointing out what happened in those 2019 negotiations.

Matthews - 40 goals attending Las Vegas Award ceremony as Rocket nominee. Crosby won with 44 goals.

Again he was 2nd in goals and you are trying to argue this rookie can't win it? ROFL what you remember.

Marner matching his points. Same same

 

[Arzak]

Nobody thought Matthews was the best goal scorer in the league after his first three seasons? He was runner up for the rocket in his rookie season!

He literally was the best goal scorer those three year:

2017, 2018, 2019

Ovechkin: 163 gp 56 es goals .34 g/game
Mcdavid: 162 gp 54 es goals .33 g/game
Kucherov: 160 gp 51 es goals .31 g/game
Tavares:164 gp 51 es goals .31 g/game
Matthews: 130 gp 49 es goals .37 g/game

Not to mention he played with Marleau, Johnsson and Kapanen in 2019. Yes that bad of linemates, yet still scoring goals at the best pace in the NHL....all over his first three years.

No question, everybody but apparently you, was well aware he was the NHL best goal scorer after his first three seasons.

He was 2nd only to Ovechkin in all-strength goals per game over those same years.

Thank you for pulling it out.

Only those with basic arithmetic's saw it coming

 

[francis246]

Matthews - 40 goals attending Las Vegas Award ceremony as Rocket nominee. Crosby won with 44 goals.

Again he was 2nd in goals and you are trying to argue this rookie can't win it? ROFL what you remember.

Marner matching his points. Same same

Did I say he can’t win it? No I didn’t. I said what I said pretty clearly. No one knew what Matthews really was as a player until after the 2020 season… hell even 2021 is when he really established himself as being in that same conversation as McDavid/McKinnon and anyone who was around on these boards in 2018 and 2019 or is simply a hockey fan can attest to that. There was maybe a small group who was consistent in that he’s going to eventually separate himself and be a consistent 40 goal scorer but the injuries put a lot of doubt in a lot of peoples minds.

This is Marner thread so I’m going to stick to Marner. Expecting him to take a discount in 2019 was dumb. Additionally you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see why the Marner camp asked for Eichel and Matthews money. You wanna be mad at someone for giving him that money? Go be mad at Dubas/Shanahan. Not at fans who can understand why he asked for it. We literally have no say in the matter.

 

[leafsfan5]

Keefe was asked if it's still day to day and he said "no I'd say it's more than that at this point". Skated yesterday and today and will rest now "ramp him back up next week". Hope it doesn't linger, he's a guy that needs his edge work.

Okay back to the tire fire....

With our positioning essentially locked in, I hope we're extra cautious with Marner's injury

I'd like him back with at least a few games remaining to get into a groove, but he can take the time he needs otherwise

 

[ACC1224]

Did I say he can’t win it? No I didn’t. I said what I said pretty clearly. No one knew what Matthews really was as a player until after the 2020 season… hell even 2021 is when he really established himself as being in that same conversation as McDavid/McKinnon and anyone who was around on these boards in 2018 and 2019 or is simply a hockey fan can attest to that. There was maybe a small group who was consistent in that he’s going to eventually separate himself and be a consistent 40 goal scorer but the injuries put a lot of doubt in a lot of peoples minds.

This is Marner thread so I’m going to stick to Marner. Expecting him to take a discount in 2019 was dumb. Additionally you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see why the Marner camp asked for Eichel and Matthews money. You wanna be mad at someone for giving him that money? Go be mad at Dubas/Shanahan. Not at fans who can understand why he asked for it. We literally have no say in the matter.

He was definitely worth more than Eichel, still is. Leafs couldn’t believe their luck when Marner was available at 4.

 

[Gallagbi]

This is Marner thread so I’m going to stick to Marner. Expecting him to take a discount in 2019 was dumb. Additionally you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see why the Marner camp asked for Eichel and Matthews money. You wanna be mad at someone for giving him that money? Go be mad at Dubas/Shanahan. Not at fans who can understand why he asked for it. We literally have no say in the matter.

Be mad at Shanny/Dubas for giving, be mad at Marner for asking. Neither did their job well in those negotiations.