Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[francis246]

Be mad at Shanny/Dubas for giving, be mad at Marner for asking. Neither did their job well in those negotiations.

Why should we be mad at Marner lol? Players are always going to ask for the most. The organization is responsible for convincing players to fall under whatever cap structure they want. Rantanen, Point, Aho, Pastrnak we are all told no, you will make this much under their teams cap structure. hell even the organization had no problem telling Nylander no. No one to blame but management really.

I kinda blame them for letting the whole situation get out of control. You look at other teams like LA, Chicago, PIT who had similar situations, you give those players matching deals. One is not made to feel or seem more important than the other (even if that truly is the case) it saves you a ton of headaches down the road.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why should we be mad at Marner lol? Players are always going to ask for the most. The organization is responsible for convincing players to fall under whatever cap structure they want. Rantanen, Point, Aho, Pastrnak we are all told no, you will make this much under their teams cap structure. hell even the organization had no problem telling Nylander no. No one to blame but management really.

Because the contract set him back and he struggled with the pressure.

He wanted to be paid a top tier salary and negotiations weren't great. He got his bag and issued an awkward letter to appease fans after the backlash. He went from the golden boy to a gold digger.

Ask for what you're worth, money sets expectations. Players, and really every professional, should know this

 

[francis246]

Because the contract set him back and he struggled with the pressure.

He wanted to be paid a top tier salary and negotiations weren't great. He got his bag and issued an awkward letter to appease fans after the backlash. He went from the golden boy to a gold digger.

Ask for what you're worth, money sets expectations. Players, and really every professional, should know this

The contract didn’t set Mitch back. The guy won 2 first team RW awards after signing the contract and has been above PPG. There are many reasons why his playoff production is worse and that has to do with his style of play, not how much he makes. Marner wouldn’t be a different player if he mad 9.5 vs 10.9.

 

[francis246]

Because the contract set him back and he struggled with the pressure.

He wanted to be paid a top tier salary and negotiations weren't great. He got his bag and issued an awkward letter to appease fans after the backlash. He went from the golden boy to a gold digger.

Ask for what you're worth, money sets expectations. Players, and really every professional, should know this

I don’t understand how he didn’t ask for his worth? Jack Eichel got 80 million for being a 25 goal scorer and hitting 60+ points once. Marner hit 60+ twice and then had 84 points. He went 2 picks after Eichel. The 10.9 seems like fair value but it should have 100% been on an 8 year deal, not a 6 year deal. Only Kyle can answer why he did not push for an 8 year deal at that number

 

[Gallagbi]

The contract didn’t set Mitch back. The guy won 2 first team RW awards after signing the contract and has been above PPG. There are many reasons why his playoff production is worse and that has to do with his style of play, not how much he makes. Marner wouldn’t be a different player if he mad 9.5 vs 10.9.

The further from signing the better he's been. He's struggled with pressure, whether that's the letter to fans or crying in the penalty box. Money adds pressure.

 

[francis246]

The further from signing the better he's been. He's struggled with pressure, whether that's the letter to fans or crying in the penalty box. Money adds pressure.

Sorry I’m not really buying what you’re selling. If Marner did all those things and made 9.5 million, people would still feel the same way about him. I’m The apathy towards Marner always existed. People thought he was kind of a soft player already. His contract negotiations made it even worse. People weren’t suddenly going to be okay with him crying or puck over glass because he took a cheaper contract

 

[ACC1224]

The contract didn’t set Mitch back. The guy won 2 first team RW awards after signing the contract and has been above PPG. There are many reasons why his playoff production is worse and that has to do with his style of play, not how much he makes. Marner wouldn’t be a different player if he mad 9.5 vs 10.9.

Had Dubas just taken Marners initial ask of 8.5x8 things would have worked out so much better for everyone involved.

 

[francis246]

Had Dubas just taken Marners initial ask of 8.5x8 things would have worked out so much better for everyone involved.

There’s also a possibility all the results are the same too and we still end up in the same position. No amount of money was stopping Dubas from trading Kadri, Dubas would still protect holl and Kerfoot over McCann. Dubas would still trade Marleau and a first instead of just keeping him. He would still overpay Johnsson and Kapanen. He would have still kept Sparks over the vet goalie escaping my mind. Still would have signed Tavares to his deal.

Only thing is maybe Marner has a better reputation and we probably have Hyman. Outside of that when you look back. Dubas was just not very good at his job. So it wouldn’t have mattered tbh. All these arguments come back to one thing, we had an inexperience GM running things

 

[Gallagbi]

Sorry I’m not really buying what you’re selling. If Marner did all those things and made 9.5 million, people would still feel the same way about him. I’m The apathy towards Marner always existed. People thought he was kind of a soft player already. His contract negotiations made it even worse. People weren’t suddenly going to be okay with him crying or puck over glass because he took a cheaper contract

There's 2 things to look at

1. Is the fan perception, which you note changed after the contract with it being worse.
2. How he handles pressure, which isn't great and the contract has only added more

I'm interested to see his next round of negotiations

 

[ToneDog]

Sorry I’m not really buying what you’re selling. If Marner did all those things and made 9.5 million, people would still feel the same way about him. I’m The apathy towards Marner always existed. People thought he was kind of a soft player already. His contract negotiations made it even worse. People weren’t suddenly going to be okay with him crying or puck over glass because he took a cheaper contract

Even Bieksa said it. Take a few dollars less and buy some goodwill. Mitch @ 9.5m would not get most of the flack he gets IMO. His dragging out the negotiations also did not put him in good light with some. As the girl in the commercial says, it's true.

 

[DarkKnight]

I love how we see the Marner contract in a vacuum, when really after Matthews agent rolled Dubas, a Marner over payment was a given. Kyle didn't have the experience to handle the big three contracts, the minute he flew to Europe to make sure Willie's feelings weren't hurt, I knew this guy was in over his head on contracts.

 

[ACC1224]

There's 2 things to look at

1. Is the fan perception, which you note changed after the contract with it being worse.
2. How he handles pressure, which isn't great and the contract has only added more

I'm interested to see his next round of negotiations

I think he’d feel the pressure the same regardless of what he earns. He cares too much.

I love how we see the Marner contract in a vacuum, when really after Matthews agent rolled Dubas, a Marner over payment was a given. Kyle didn't have the experience to handle the big three contracts, the minute he flew to Europe to make sure Willie's feelings weren't hurt, I knew this guy was in over his head on contracts.

Yep refusing the 8.5 offer and signing Matthews before Marner may be Dubas’ two biggest mistakes

 

[Antropovsky]

I love how we see the Marner contract in a vacuum, when really after Matthews agent rolled Dubas, a Marner over payment was a given. Kyle didn't have the experience to handle the big three contracts, the minute he flew to Europe to make sure Willie's feelings weren't hurt, I knew this guy was in over his head on contracts.

Matthews agent rolled Dubas? If Matthews makes it to RFA do you think other teams weren't going to offer better? Then what? Dubas is an idiot for letting him get to RFA?

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Dubas F'd us with Nylander too. We should have 2 more years remaining of Nylander @ 8 mil instead of entering 11.5 mil next year. Dubas rolls dice at evaluating talent and plays it off as intensive analysis.

Not to mention the stand off made Nylander Fat Thor and useless when he came back. Another write off round 1

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Dubas F'd us with Nylander too. We should have 2 more years remaining of Nylander @ 8 mil instead of entering 11.5 mil next year. Dubas rolls dice at evaluating talent and plays it off as intensive analysis.

Not to mention the stand off made Nylander Fat Thor and useless when he came back. Another write off round 1

The dubas lover disappear when you bring up nylander asking for 8x8. The 8 years give you his entire prime. Dubas guessed wrong on Nylander. Nylander guessed right on Nylander. Age 27-29 is the most expensive for players like Nylander and that's the age he made us negotiate an entirely new contract instead of locking it in 6 years ago. He was only one asking for 8 the other 2 want short deals. When players like this ask for 8 you should take it and run

So I'm not surprised marner made the same as matthews on his first big contract. dubas is so bad at building a team

 

[notDatsyuk]

Moby Dick is one of my favorite books.
I even have a copy published in the 30s

There's a reason the classics are classics.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

The dubas lover disappear when you bring up nylander asking for 8x8. The 8 years give you his entire prime. Dubas guessed wrong on Nylander. Nylander guessed right on Nylander. Age 27-29 is the most expensive for players like Nylander and that's the age he made us negotiate an entirely new contract instead of locking it in 6 years ago. He was only one asking for 8 the other 2 want short deals. When players like this ask for 8 you should take it and run

So I'm not surprised marner made the same as matthews on his first big contract. dubas is so bad at building a team

Makes me sick to my stomach thinking how many teams Dubas must have called during the Nylander saga to flip him for their non-star D too.

Then creates a 4 mil gap between him and Marner. It's madness.

Good riddance he's gone.

Disclaimer: Love Marner. Have no problems with his contract. Just find our story lines as a team to be comical

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Just find our story lines as a team to be comical

Like I said if a player like Nylander asks for 8x8 that gives you all his prime, you take it and run especially if you have no problem paying marner like he's a generational scorer like matthews. Dubas is clueless.

I want Marner to retire a Leaf but he shouldn't be @ this cap hit internally right now for 6 years and it messes us up on his extension because the extension % increase will have to be on this cap hit, not on what his current cap hit should be. It's the same situation all over again but worse. Marners most expensive years 27-29 are coming off already making almost 11 mil. If you're a GM handing out this cap hit for a non-generational winger, you're a complete clown for not acquiring any of those 27-29 year old years. We should be getting at least one of those years (He should be 28 or older) for this current money and then it makes the % increase less on next contract because you already paid for most of the prime.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Like I said if a player like Nylander asks for 8x8 that gives you all his prime, you take it and run especially if you have no problem paying marner like he's a generational scorer like matthews. Dubas is clueless.

I want Marner to retire a Leaf but he shouldn't be @ this cap hit internally right now for 6 years and it messes us up on his extension because the extension % increase will have to be on this cap hit, not on what his current cap hit should be. It's the same situation all over again but worse. Marners most expensive years 27-29 are coming off already making almost 11 mil. If you're a GM handing out this cap hit for a non-generational winger, you're a complete clown for not acquiring any of those 27-29 year old years. We should be getting at least one of those years (He should be 28 or older) for this current money and then it makes the % increase less on next contract because you already paid for most of the prime.

3 amigos must remain Leafs @ all costs, so at the end of the day I'll defend their cap hits if need be. But yeah, it always boils down to the logical inconsistencies for me, not necessarily what Marner makes, and it goes hand in hand with how I think this team was sabotaged out of some cup wins the past few years by their GM. Everything has a "head scratcher" element to it. Like why do you have a problem giving Nylander 8x8 but sign off on Marner = Matthews so quickly? You don't understand how significant it would have been for us today if Nylander still had 2 years @ 8 mil.

I will end myself here before I derail this thread with my list of 100-200 sabotaging "head scratchers".

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

3 amigos must remain Leafs @ all costs, so at the end of the day I'll defend their cap hits if need be.

Will end it at this too.

 

[Dreakmur]

3 amigos must remain Leafs @ all costs

It is likely to be at the cost of building a winner.

You would rather have a handful of elite regular season players instead of a championship-worthy team?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Had Dubas just taken Marners initial ask of 8.5x8 things would have worked out so much better for everyone involved.

You can't take contracts that never existed, unfortunately.

Be mad at Shanny/Dubas for giving, be mad at Marner for asking.

Be mad at the fans for refusing to accept how contracts work and still complaining about it 5 years later.

 

[Racer88]

You can't take contracts that never existed, unfortunately.

Be mad at the fans for refusing to accept how contracts work and still complaining about it 5 years later.

1 just like you can’t take the reports of other teams offering more for Tavares
2. But you can be mad at the players for not living up to their massive asks……….even 5 years later

 

[Dekes For Days]

1 just like you can’t take the reports of other teams offering more for Tavares
2. But you can be mad at the players for not living up to their massive asks……….even 5 years later

I don't really care about what Tavares was offered elsewhere, but at least there were actual widespread and in-the-moment reports about the offers Tavares was getting. That's a heck of a lot better than some guy on HFboards making up a fake offer that contradicts previous reports, long after the supposed occurrence and signing.

5 years later, all of our core RFAs have lived up to their asks, and proven those contracts to be justified, which make the complaints even more ridiculous.

 

[DarkKnight]

Why should we be mad at Marner lol? Players are always going to ask for the most. The organization is responsible for convincing players to fall under whatever cap structure they want. Rantanen, Point, Aho, Pastrnak we are all told no, you will make this much under their teams cap structure. hell even the organization had no problem telling Nylander no. No one to blame but management really.

I kinda blame them for letting the whole situation get out of control. You look at other teams like LA, Chicago, PIT who had similar situations, you give those players matching deals. One is not made to feel or seem more important than the other (even if that truly is the case) it saves you a ton of headaches down the road.

How can you blame an agent for trying to maximize the return for his player? It’s ridiculous. And if the player was overpaid, whose fault is that, especially for an RFA! We all admit they were over paid, so to expect them to live up to an objective overpay, makes little sense to me. Also, Marner didn’t get the same as Matthews, he got less money and gave up an extra year of UFA. Dubas letting Matthews walk to free agency at 26 freaking years old, max money and an insane signing bonus up front, come on, if you think Marner’s agent wasn’t coming to the trough. It’s all context, and the blame lies with management.