Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[TheGreatOne11]

Lol half the people in here calling out the other half over being "reactionary" Mitch was terrible in the playoffs last season and started out this year not ready to play. Simple facts.

He plays one great vintage Marner game and everybody grovels at his feet, I have the kids jersey, I wanted the Leafs to draft him, I do not hate Marner AT ALL.

But this fan base is so reactionary to both positive and negative, if he finishes top 5 in points and does nothing in the playoffs again this is all pointless. It really doesnt matter.

Having said all that, as much as I love Matty and Mitch together, come playoff time I think it would be for the best to have them split up, rare occasions like last night stacking the line with Matty, Mitch and Nylander would be epic.

I'm rooting for him to go back to vintage Marner, I'm just saying this is all pointless until he proves himself in the playoffs.

If he sputters again, I don't care how nasty that goal was last night, it would be time to go for sure. But if he can pull stuff like that again in the playoffs, I'll be even prouder of the name on the back of my jersey lol.

No Debby downer, I'm glad he's playing well again, but all the doubt was justified, from the playoffs to the first few games, he was absolute trash, where as Tavares was just having bad puck luck as you can see it going in for him now, Marner has completely changed his game to his previous elite level.

 

[Twine Tickler]

So I bad mouthed Marner enough, finally he played part of a game. Don't think he skates hard enough and did not see the ice in last 5 or 6 min.
Nice goal now do it at full speed....when you can make the other team fear you and back up the d and stop the pinching from all the other teams.
Hope he can do the same when he faces a team from Boston.

this is such a terrible take. Marner skates about as hard as anyone on the ice almost every night. He was gripping the stick too tight early on because of the overwhelming volume of idiotic takes like this.

Mitch is an elite player. He may battle with the game in between the ears, but he is a superstar in this league. He plays a very strong 2 way game, and back checks just as hard as anyone on the team.

Is he the right fit for us? only time will tell if he can bury the demons. The skill and effort are never in question. It's his fight or flight instinct in the moments that matter. Till this point, its been flight. But there is plenty of time to change that narrative. He still has a lot of hockey left in his career. Whether or not that is in TOR or not is up for debate. But I would be shocked if Mitch does not have playoff success at some point in his career.

I will say, I can guarantee you that this pessimistic, hoping he fails bullshit is not going to help bring out the best in Mitch. I'm not just specifically talking about your feelings towards Mitch, but also to the decent size portion of this fanbase that wants his head on a stake every time he goes pointless in a given game.

We need to start backing these guys better. Constructive criticism sure, that's part of the business. But downplaying their abilities and effort? Especially after the guy put up 3 pts and was one of the most noticeable players on the sheet... no wonder no one wants to be a Leaf.

 

[Notsince67]

Not at all (and you're trying much too hard). I enjoyed the game last night for example, but if and when we win win a playoff series clinching game again, I'll enjoy it 100 times more.

For me, playoff success is the ultimate goal and everything that happens during the season, happens within that context. What about you - do you differentiate at all between the regular season and playoffs or is it all the same to you?

Just got used to the leafs over the years not winning

 

[Peasy]

Lol half the people in here calling out the other half over being "reactionary" Mitch was terrible in the playoffs last season and started out this year not ready to play. Simple facts.

He plays one great vintage Marner game and everybody grovels at his feet, I have the kids jersey, I wanted the Leafs to draft him, I do not hate Marner AT ALL.

But this fan base is so reactionary to both positive and negative, if he finishes top 5 in points and does nothing in the playoffs again this is all pointless. It really doesnt matter.

Having said all that, as much as I love Matty and Mitch together, come playoff time I think it would be for the best to have them split up, rare occasions like last night stacking the line with Matty, Mitch and Nylander would be epic.

I'm rooting for him to go back to vintage Marner, I'm just saying this is all pointless until he proves himself in the playoffs.

If he sputters again, I don't care how nasty that goal was last night, it would be time to go for sure. But if he can pull stuff like that again in the playoffs, I'll be even prouder of the name on the back of my jersey lol.

No Debby downer, I'm glad he's playing well again, but all the doubt was justified, from the playoffs to the first few games, he was absolute trash, where as Tavares was just having bad puck luck as you can see it going in for him now, Marner has completely changed his game to his previous elite level.

People care more about being "right" than actually discussing the player's play.

 

[Twine Tickler]

did not see the ice in last 5 or 6 min.

not to mention they were up 4 bagel in the last 5-6 mins of the game. Pretty confident the 3rd and 4th line was getting doubled the entire 3rd. Our lowest TOI among forwards was Nick Ritchie at just over 11 mins. I don't see any reason why Mitch would even have to keep his laces tied for the last 5 mins of that game. It was curtains by then

 

[Twine Tickler]

Lol half the people in here calling out the other half over being "reactionary" Mitch was terrible in the playoffs last season and started out this year not ready to play. Simple facts.

He plays one great vintage Marner game and everybody grovels at his feet, I have the kids jersey, I wanted the Leafs to draft him, I do not hate Marner AT ALL.

Ya I agree with this statement entirely. But IMO I think this statement is most valid for the people who jump down Marner's throat at any given chance.

the Facts we know about Marner:

-Elite skill
-Great work ethic
-good 2 way player
-freezes in big moments and moments when we need him to be elite.

the last fact is what garners the most talk amongst this fanbase. Understandably so. I will never refute that. But even in those games, Mitch is working his bag off most of the time. He loses the mental game before the puck even drops. He panics with the puck, and doesn't know how to simplify his game when the ice gets harder to come by. If people want to shit on his inability to block out the noise, fill your boots. It's very valid. But the effort is almost always there for Mitch.

When he has those vintage let down games, I get frustrated just as much as the next person. But his leash with this fanbase is so damn small at this point that he needs to produce at the level he did last night just to get maybe 75% of this fanbase to temporarily support him lol.

Mitch is on the Leafs. We support the Leafs. Maybe wait until if/when he gets dished to hope he fails... The people groveling over one good game, all while completely lashing him the prior 9 games can absolutely go kick rocks IMO. I've got no time for that shit.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just got used to the leafs over the years not winning

I'm not used to it and I don't think I ever will be. I feel your pain though, hopefully it will be alleviated next spring.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ya I agree with this statement entirely. But IMO I think this statement is most valid for the people who jump down Marner's throat at any given chance.

the Facts we know about Marner:

-Elite skill
-Great work ethic
-good 2 way player
-freezes in big moments and moments when we need him to be elite.

the last fact is what garners the most talk amongst this fanbase. Understandably so. I will never refute that. But even in those games, Mitch is working his bag off most of the time. He loses the mental game before the puck even drops. He panics with the puck, and doesn't know how to simplify his game when the ice gets harder to come by. If people want to shit on his inability to block out the noise, fill your boots. It's very valid. But the effort is almost always there for Mitch.

When he has those vintage let down games, I get frustrated just as much as the next person. But his leash with this fanbase is so damn small at this point that he needs to produce at the level he did last night just to get maybe 75% of this fanbase to temporarily support him lol.

Mitch is on the Leafs. We support the Leafs. Maybe wait until if/when he gets dished to hope he fails... The people groveling over one good game, all while completely lashing him the prior 9 games can absolutely go kick rocks IMO. I've got no time for that shit.

I agree that there is no reason to question his effort. Maybe he helps lead the team to playoff success one day and maybe he doesn't, but if he doesn't, it won't be because he isn't trying hard.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I agree that there is no reason to question his effort. Maybe he helps lead the team to playoff success one day and maybe he doesn't, but if he doesn't, it won't be because he isn't trying hard.

yup I agree. I honestly have very little doubt that he will have playoff success at some point in his career. Whether or not he will run out of runway in Toronto before that time comes is up for debate.

I am going to continue to hope for the best. There is reasonable cause to be skeptical or even guarded to some degree. But there is absolutely no reason to doubt his care level, effort level, and skillset. He is a legit superstar in this league, no mater who he plays with he drives play. Not many play driving wingers in the NHL like him

 

[Gary Nylund]

yup I agree. I honestly have very little doubt that he will have playoff success at some point in his career. Whether or not he will run out of runway in Toronto before that time comes is up for debate.

I am going to continue to hope for the best. There is reasonable cause to be skeptical or even guarded to some degree. But there is absolutely no reason to doubt his care level, effort level, and skillset. He is a legit superstar in this league, no mater who he plays with he drives play. Not many play driving wingers in the NHL like him

If he's great for the next 2 years out of the next 10 then sure, he will have had playoff success. The question for me is - can he get to the point where he will have success in the playoffs on a consistent basis? When you're a superstar being paid superstar money, you need to have playoffs success like 8-9 times out of 10 in the playoffs and in that regard, he's fallen behind and if he doesn't excel this coming spring, it's gonna be a shit show around here. Like I said earlier, that's life in the big city, nothing you can do about it. Except play like the superstar you're supposed be and win that is of course.

 

[Niagara Bill]

not to mention they were up 4 bagel in the last 5-6 mins of the game. Pretty confident the 3rd and 4th line was getting doubled the entire 3rd. Our lowest TOI among forwards was Nick Ritchie at just over 11 mins. I don't see any reason why Mitch would even have to keep his laces tied for the last 5 mins of that game. It was curtains by then

Our best players, AM and Nylander played!

 

[Niagara Bill]

this is such a terrible take. Marner skates about as hard as anyone on the ice almost every night. He was gripping the stick too tight early on because of the overwhelming volume of idiotic takes like this.

Mitch is an elite player. He may battle with the game in between the ears, but he is a superstar in this league. He plays a very strong 2 way game, and back checks just as hard as anyone on the team.
Well, we disagree. I say he us not ready to play this year, he is loving life and forgot what git him there. No excuse for this.
We shall see if he is elite. Much harder when 10.5 is in your bank.
You are somewhat looking thru optimistic lenses. His skating style gives him away. He has not been quick, his stick and arms are lose. He is shying away.
We shall see against Boston if his butt is motivated.
I hope it is, I want a winner, not another Gary Leeman and 50 1 season, and laziness after.

Is he the right fit for us? only time will tell if he can bury the demons. The skill and effort are never in question. It's his fight or flight instinct in the moments that matter. Till this point, its been flight. But there is plenty of time to change that narrative. He still has a lot of hockey left in his career. Whether or not that is in TOR or not is up for debate. But I would be shocked if Mitch does not have playoff success at some point in his career.

I will say, I can guarantee you that this pessimistic, hoping he fails bullshit is not going to help bring out the best in Mitch. I'm not just specifically talking about your feelings towards Mitch, but also to the decent size portion of this fanbase that wants his head on a stake every time he goes pointless in a given game.

We need to start backing these guys better. Constructive criticism sure, that's part of the business. But downplaying their abilities and effort? Especially after the guy put up 3 pts and was one of the most noticeable players on the sheet... no wonder no one wants to be a Leaf.

 

[Twine Tickler]

If he's great for the next 2 years out of the next 10 then sure, he will have had playoff success. The question for me is - can he get to the point where he will have success in the playoffs on a consistent basis? When you're a superstar being paid superstar money, you need to have playoffs success like 8-9 times out of 10 in the playoffs and in that regard, he's fallen behind and if he doesn't excel this coming spring, it's gonna be a shit show around here. Like I said earlier, that's life in the big city, nothing you can do about it. Except play like the superstar you're supposed be and win that is of course.

Call me naive, but I honestly think once he gets the taste of post season success, he will never lose it. His issue is in between the ears. Once that monkey is off his back he will flourish.

Having Hockey Canada at the game last night I hope bodes well for him playing for Canada at the Olympics. I am praying he makes the team for a couple of reasons.

1. It will be nice to have a Leaf on Team Canada (obviously)

2. I think Mitch will actually flourish in that environment. He won't be the player who has the most pressure on the team. That will fall heavily on McDavid, Crosby, McKinnon...etc. That's not to say he wont have any pressure, but he won't likely be the fall guy that he is in Toronto. He could easily fill the Toews role in 2010 and the Duchene role in 2014 where he is the skilled depth guy that dominates on the biggest stage. It would give him all the confidence in the world if he could do so. He is more than capable of it.

I'd say the second point is true for all of our olympic bound players. It's f***ed up to say, but they will have way less pressure at the Olympics than they will any given week in Toronto. Like for example, the pressure Mitch, Auston, Willy, JT and all of our skill guys had to feel last week is probably more than anything they'd have to individually take on for their respective countries. Matts is going to be playing to most prominent role for his country, but literally no one in the states gives a flying f*** about Olympic Hockey. It will hardly make ESPN in some states I bet. There will be a desire from the fanbase to win, but not the expectation there is here in Canada

 

[ACC1224]

Our best players, AM and Nylander played!

Show your work.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Call me naive, but I honestly think once he gets the taste of post season success, he will never lose it. His issue is in between the ears. Once that monkey is off his back he will flourish.

I've heard that said a lot about this team for years now - once we win one round, we're just going to keep rolling etc. and I've always called BS, every team is good and every team is tough to beat so no reason to assume once win a series that we'll win the next one. Re. Marner, yeah I'm more optimistic about a positive effect there, he needs to succeed against a really tough to play against team though (not just any team) and fight through that but again, we'll see.

Having Hockey Canada at the game last night I hope bodes well for him playing for Canada at the Olympics. I am praying he makes the team for a couple of reasons.

1. It will be nice to have a Leaf on Team Canada (obviously)

2. I think Mitch will actually flourish in that environment.

I hope he makes it for a different reason. I don't care too much whether or not he flourishes or not in that environment (though I agree he is likely to), what I do hope for is that the experience would help him going forward as a Toronto Maple Leaf and I think it very likely would. Just being around all those experienced winners and watching how they go about their business, yeah I think that could be a huge step in his development. So yes for that reason, I do hope he makes the team and if he does, I have no doubt that he will play well and justify being picked.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Show your work.

?????????

 

[Twine Tickler]

I've heard that said a lot about this team for years now - once we win one round, we're just going to keep rolling etc. and I've always called BS, every team is good and every team is tough to beat so no reason to assume once win a series that we'll win the next one. Re. Marner, yeah I'm more optimistic about a positive effect there, he needs to succeed against a really tough to play against team though (not just any team) and fight through that but again, we'll see.



I hope he makes it for a different reason. I don't care too much whether or not he flourishes or not in that environment (though I agree he is likely to), what I do hope for is that the experience would help him going forward as a Toronto Maple Leaf and I think it very likely would. Just being around all those experienced winners and watching how they go about their business, yeah I think that could be a huge step in his development. So yes for that reason, I do hope he makes the team and if he does, I have no doubt that he will play well and justify being picked.

I just think there can only be benefits from these guys going to the Olympics. They get to play meaningful hockey in an environment where they wont be scrutinized as heavily. Mitch would likely kill it in a secondary/tertiary role and could somewhat shake the narrative of being a loser if Canada managed to win it all. Even if it just shakes the narrative in his own head, that is the most important thing to gain in all of it. Not many players go to the Olympics and come back a worse player.

As for the idea that once they get past round 1, they will flourish. I am not suggesting they will steam roll their way through or even win in R2. But the 1 mental hurdle will be gone forever. I can almost guarantee that when they get to those bigger moments as the playoffs progress, they will not crumble in the same capacity that they always have done in the past. They will not just be armed with the demons of the past, but also the time they persevered through it all. At this point, all they know is failure. So when it counts the most, that is all they can think about. It's all we can think about. But having that sliver of success, even if it's just 1 round will prove to be massive for this group going forward.

It sounds f***ing pathetic, but winning a 7 game series at this point will be a mini Stanley Cup for this group. It's one less narrative that will no longer haunt this core group. Can't win it all until you win a single series. Right now our biggest opponents are not Boston, TB, and FLA. It is ourselves. We need to find a way to win these mental battles before the puck drops, because we stand no chance going into those big games with the fragility we have shown in years past. Little victories like winning an Olympic medal, or winning a round in the playoffs will go a long way to establishing that grace under pressure.

 

[bbgobie]

not to mention they were up 4 bagel in the last 5-6 mins of the game. Pretty confident the 3rd and 4th line was getting doubled the entire 3rd. Our lowest TOI among forwards was Nick Ritchie at just over 11 mins. I don't see any reason why Mitch would even have to keep his laces tied for the last 5 mins of that game. It was curtains by then

I had the over, so would've been nice to have a few more goals

 

[francis246]

Lol half the people in here calling out the other half over being "reactionary" Mitch was terrible in the playoffs last season and started out this year not ready to play. Simple facts.

He plays one great vintage Marner game and everybody grovels at his feet, I have the kids jersey, I wanted the Leafs to draft him, I do not hate Marner AT ALL.

But this fan base is so reactionary to both positive and negative, if he finishes top 5 in points and does nothing in the playoffs again this is all pointless. It really doesnt matter.

Having said all that, as much as I love Matty and Mitch together, come playoff time I think it would be for the best to have them split up, rare occasions like last night stacking the line with Matty, Mitch and Nylander would be epic.

I'm rooting for him to go back to vintage Marner, I'm just saying this is all pointless until he proves himself in the playoffs.

If he sputters again, I don't care how nasty that goal was last night, it would be time to go for sure. But if he can pull stuff like that again in the playoffs, I'll be even prouder of the name on the back of my jersey lol.

No Debby downer, I'm glad he's playing well again, but all the doubt was justified, from the playoffs to the first few games, he was absolute trash, where as Tavares was just having bad puck luck as you can see it going in for him now, Marner has completely changed his game to his previous elite level.

I've been consistent in my messaging. Criticize Marner's play, but a lot of people blaming him SPECIFICALLY for the team's playoff failure, saying he was worse than some of our fourth liners was super reactionary and unnecessary. People did the same thing with Jake Gardiner too. We pick one player who made a critical mistake and attach years of frustration and failure onto them. At the end of the day it's a team sport and if I remember correctly Sandin, Dermott and Galchenyuk were the ones with just brutal UNFORCED give aways that cost us games. Marner not scoring obviously didn't help. But I didn't and still can't understand why he has been the one to shoulder a majority of the blame.

The other reason why I say we are reactionary is because any positivity is always met with some BS skeptics. Just shut it and enjoy the win. There always has to be a negative associated with something positive. Marner is overpaid, sure but the criticism for him alone was overboard. Not one person had anything to say about our golden child Matthews who also played like crap in the playoffs.

Additionally, if they make it out of the first round then what? I keep seeing that referenced, if they make it to the 2nd round and then get slapped was that really a success? The bar is so low for us because we've had no success. They should really be aiming for Conference Finals, Stanley Cup. We need to push that, not this first round nonsense.

 

[nsleaf]

I agree that there is no reason to question his effort. Maybe he helps lead the team to playoff success one day and maybe he doesn't, but if he doesn't, it won't be because he isn't trying hard.

But you want the Leafs to trade him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But you want the Leafs to trade him.

What's your point? Never trade anyone who's trying hard?

And no I don't want to "trade him", you make it sound as if that was a goal in itself but it's not and it never has been. I wanted to see what we could get for him in the summer, I assume the return would have been huge and we'd be a better team for it but if the return wasn't massive then of course I'd rather keep him.

I've also said many times that me wanting to explore opportunities for a Marner trade had as much to do with the flat cap as it did with his play in the playoffs so what is it exactly that's bothering you? Is Marner's success more important to you than the team's success? You sound like the idea of trading Marner offends you somehow, why is that?

 

[Notsince67]

What's your point? Never trade anyone who's trying hard?

And no I don't want to "trade him", you make it sound as if that was a goal in itself but it's not and it never has been. I wanted to see what we could get for him in the summer, I assume the return would have been huge and we'd be a better team for it but if the return wasn't massive then of course I'd rather keep him.

I've also said many times that me wanting to explore opportunities for a Marner trade had as much to do with the flat cap as it did with his play in the playoffs so what is it exactly that's bothering you? Is Marner's success more important to you than the team's success? You sound like the idea of trading Marner offends you somehow, why is that?

Could you provide what you expected to be a realistic return?

 

[Darcy Tucker]

The Ghost of Martine Marincin not boxing out Johansson . A speckle of fluoride . Jerry I just don't know some times.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Could you provide what you expected to be a realistic return?

It's tough be very specific here, could be a combo of players and picks and flipping picks later for players so could be more than one trade before it's all done.

My goal was that in the end, instead of Marner at 11 million and 2 minimum wage guys, we'd have 3 guys making the same combined cap hit but we'd have a more balanced team, something like like 4+4+5 million instead of Marner and two filler pieces. And ideally there would be some positive playoff experience, some physicality and some "will to win" characteristics in there as well.

People will scream at me - you just don't trade guys with that kind of talent. Or Zeke's favourite - would you rather have a no talent team that misses the playoffs? And of my answer is no, we have 4 high end talent forwards, and very little in the way of depth around them so maybe keeping 3 out of 4 but having a much improved supporting cast would make for a better team. We'd still have maybe the same amount of talent, it would just be spread around the forward group more evenly which seems entirely logical And we also lack something, not sure what is is but when you don't show up for deciding games in the playoffs for 4 years in a row, that's a pretty big sign that change might not be a terrible idea.

Maybe we can with this top heavy forward group but I have my doubts about how far this team can go when the drop off after our top 4 is as steep as it is.

 

[Notsince67]

It's tough be very specific here, could be a combo of players and picks and flipping picks later for players so could be more than one trade before it's all done.

My goal was that in the end, instead of Marner at 11 million and 2 minimum wage guys, we'd have 3 guys making the same combined cap hit but we'd have a more balanced team, something like like 4+4+5 million instead of Marner and two filler pieces. And ideally there would be some positive playoff experience, some physicality and some "will to win" characteristics in there as well.

People will scream at me - you just don't trade guys with that kind of talent. Or Zeke's favourite - would you rather have a no talent team that misses the playoffs? And of my answer is no, we have 4 high end talent forwards, and very little in the way of depth around them so maybe keeping 3 out of 4 but having a much improved supporting cast would make for a better team. We'd still have maybe the same amount of talent, it would just be spread around the forward group more evenly which seems entirely logical And we also lack something, not sure what is is but when you don't show up for deciding games in the playoffs for 4 years in a row, that's a pretty big sign that change might not be a terrible idea.

Maybe we can with this top heavy forward group but I have my doubts about how far this team can go when the drop off after our top 4 is as steep as it is.

So you thought 3, 4.2MM players replacing Marner and 2 other forwards would be a massive haul and an improvement on the team?