Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[francis246]

Those sports don’t have hard salary caps so the onus then goes back to the owner willing to pay the luxury tax.

Marner could ask for 20 million a year and no one would care if the cap wasn’t there. The Leafs are rich enough to ice three NHL teams and have money leftover so that would never be an issue. Since there is a cap, he is now directly hurting the team and that’s what sours fans.

As for sacrificing his body, the entire sport is built on putting your body on the line. You don’t join the UFC and then refuse to take a punch. You don’t join the NFL and then shy away from tackles. Same goes for playoff hockey. You take a hit to make a play. This is something Marner struggles with.

Like I said Marner is within his rights to ask for the moon but it also reveals his mindset. It’s selfish. Dubas should have got a read on it by now and sent him packing. Once the selfishness trickles into the player’s play or interviews, it’s time to send them packing.

knowing what you’re worth and wanting that for yourself doesn’t make you selfish. Again it is not his responsibility to make sure the team has enough cap room and also make the fans happy. His first obligation (when it comes to SALARY, NOT ON ICE PLAY) is to himself, his brand/networth and his family. That’s it. I’m going to keep repeating it. It does not make you selfish to fight for what you’re worth. Again he had a 96 point season he was the leading scorer of the team two out of the 3
Years he was on his ELC. No other Maple Leaf after the Sundin era has come close to 100 points. He was well within his rights to ask for the money he did. It’s not his job to manage that cap. You can call him selfish all you want it, doesn’t make it true. Dubas f***ed up bc he thought the cap would go up and completely mismanaged the cap.

it’s easy from an outsiders perspective to call someone selfish because we as fans in a normal circumstance would never have to negotiate for that amount of money. So it’s easy for us to say “oh I would take less” because we would probably never see 1 million in our lifetime let alone 10.93 million. But if you were in Marner’s shoes and had the season he did, it would be a very difficult situation and negotiation.

what Marner is guilty of right now is not living up to his contract in this current moment

 

[studebaker17]

Those sports don’t have hard salary caps so the onus then goes back to the owner willing to pay the luxury tax.

Marner could ask for 20 million a year and no one would care if the cap wasn’t there. The Leafs are rich enough to ice three NHL teams and have money leftover so that would never be an issue. Since there is a cap, he is now directly hurting the team and that’s what sours fans.

As for sacrificing his body, the entire sport is built on putting your body on the line. You don’t join the UFC and then refuse to take a punch. You don’t join the NFL and then shy away from tackles. Same goes for playoff hockey. You take a hit to make a play. This is something Marner struggles with.

Like I said Marner is within his rights to ask for the moon but it also reveals his mindset. It’s selfish. Dubas should have got a read on it by now and sent him packing. Once the selfishness trickles into the player’s play or interviews, it’s time to send them packing.

Fans have always cared about players salary's . It's how they relate to them and the team structure . I remember endless discussions on here and penalty box on salary structure of the Leafs to the point there was all kinds of guys guessing revenue they made to try and figure out exactly how much the Leafs could afford to spend . Fans used to rip on McCabe for making to much and wished we had more Kaberle's because he was cheaper . Salary cap has magnified it even more though .

 

[-DeMo-]

Broadly speaking, the players are the greedy ones is one of the greatest feats of grifting ever produced. Just a master class in manipulation by billionaire owners who jack up ticket prices, sell pieces of fabric with a logo on it for hundreds of dollars, all while suppressing the salaries of the labour who generates their revenue.

Just curious which other businesses in the world give there employee's 50% of the entire businesses revenue? also every time they jack up ticket prices, and Sell fabric with a logo on it the players benefit just so were clear that benefits both sides, equally.

 

[ER89]

so's Johnny but he get's a free pass for some reason and at least Mitch will pick it up , Johnny i'm not so sure of

I've been just as critical of JT. The only thing he has going for him is a better attitude. Mitch is just a crying wuss.

 

[jimmycarter]

He couldn’t even break a stick on the bench. He’s a little kid.

 

[The Iceman]

I am a Marner backer.
Truth be told there isn't a single current Leaf that I do not support (Well maybe not Kerfoot and his $3.5). And I do waiver on Engvall a bit because of his frustrating ups and downs.

But

One thing stuck out for me about Marner and the Prime series. An under the radar comment by Matthews.
They were talking about food and diet and it was mentioned that Mitch could eat that. And basically Mitch still eats what he wants.

I have sort of held a grudge about this since I heard this. A top player should do everything to make him the best possible player he can be.
Kessel would be my example of this. Was very good but how good could he be?

 

[VanW27]

knowing what you’re worth and wanting that for yourself doesn’t make you selfish. Again it is not his responsibility to make sure the team has enough cap room and also make the fans happy. His first obligation (when it comes to SALARY, NOT ON ICE PLAY) is to himself, his brand/networth and his family. That’s it. I’m going to keep repeating it. It does not make you selfish to fight for what you’re worth. Again he had a 96 point season he was the leading scorer of the team two out of the 3
Years he was on his ELC. No other Maple Leaf after the Sundin era has come close to 100 points. He was well within his rights to ask for the money he did. It’s not his job to manage that cap. You can call him selfish all you want it, doesn’t make it true. Dubas f***ed up bc he thought the cap would go up and completely mismanaged the cap.

it’s easy from an outsiders perspective to call someone selfish because we as fans in a normal circumstance would never have to negotiate for that amount of money. So it’s easy for us to say “oh I would take less” because we would probably never see 1 million in our lifetime let alone 10.93 million. But if you were in Marner’s shoes and had the season he did, it would be a very difficult situation and negotiation.

what Marner is guilty of right now is not living up to his contract in this current moment

That's all fair enough, at the end of the day the buck stops at Dubas.

Marner can ask for whatever he wants and whatever he feels he is worth, Dubas has to decide if its worth it to the team - so far the answer to that is a resounding no. In fairness to Dubas a pandemic nerfed inflation and tanked any chance of the Leafs getting value out of the deal.

At the same time, comparables have taken less, so fans hoping Marner would not go full out for max money aren't bringing a view that's completely unreasonable. He's a local kid, already ridiculously wealthy, loves the Leafs so we're told, there were reasons to think the Leafs could have/should have got a nice deal. We've seen what his comparables signed for at the same time, Aho, Rantanen, Point. And while you could argue he was the best of the bunch at the time you could also make strong contradictory arguments (Position, Goals vs. Assists, team success, playoff performance) to say he's right in line or should even be making less than them.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

He couldn’t even break a stick on the bench. He’s a little kid.

He actually gained 18 lbs over summer and tried to beef up his strength .. but again he was misguided .. core strength is not built in a gym (it can be enhanced yes) you either have it innately or you don't .. Mitch has never had it since he was little and will never get it .. he is better off as a little buzzsaw weaving in and out on his edges .. unless of course he decides to change his stride technique which i have been in favour of since he was 6 years old .. now he needs to get back on bike and a diet and re engineer himself back to last years build

 

[francis246]

That's all fair enough, at the end of the day the buck stops at Dubas.

Marner can ask for whatever he wants and whatever he feels he is worth, Dubas has to decide if its worth it to the team - so far the answer to that is a resounding no. In fairness to Dubas a pandemic nerfed inflation and tanked any chance of the Leafs getting value out of the deal.

At the same time, comparables have taken less, so fans hoping Marner would not go full out for max money aren't bringing a view that's completely unreasonable. He's a local kid, already ridiculously wealthy, loves the Leafs so we're told, there were reasons to think the Leafs could have/should have got a nice deal. We've seen what his comparables signed for at the same time, Aho, Rantanen, Point. And while you could argue he was the best of the bunch at the time you could also make strong contradictory arguments (Position, Goals vs. Assists, team success, playoff performance) to say he's right in line or should even be making less than them.

fair points, but I think Marner said it best. He compared himself to McDavid and Matthews while the others compared themselves to him. So he wasn’t even thinking of Aho, Point and Rantanen as comparables.

I also think it’s part of the reason why fans are so angry. We are comparing him to players that were ultimately not even used as a comparible in negotiations

 

[Sundinisagod]

He actually gained 18 lbs over summer and tried to beef up his strength .. but again he was misguided .. core strength is not built in a gym (it can be enhanced yes) you either have it innately or you don't .. Mitch has never had it since he was little and will never get it .. he is better off as a little buzzsaw weaving in and out on his edges .. unless of course he decides to change his stride technique which i have been in favour of since he was 6 years old .. now he needs to get back on bike and a diet and re engineer himself back to last years build

Looking at his slight frame i have to question how much of the weight gain is lean muscle mass? He doesn't look any stronger than last year. Did he just add more Skittles to his diet?

 

[djdev]

People keep saying this but, yes, I also blame Marner.
People seek money because it helps bring them happiness.
Do people really believe Marner is happier now with $70 million and all the constant negativity surrounding him?
Would he not be happier with $50 million and positivity surrounding him?
Marners situation is as much on him as it is on Dubas.

he is becoming a pariah in the city he claims to love. Is that worth the extra money?
If it’s worth it, than all the power to him I guess. I would think it must suck to head out for a bite to eat and have people look down on you rather than the way he was hoping in that stupid letter he wrote to the city.

athletes careers arent infinite, they could have a career ending injury tomorrow. you get what u can as soon as u can. everyone can hate him because he asked for that kind of money, but again, the team wasnt required to pay him.

if he was producing like normal marner and had a better 7 game stretch to end last year this narrative wouldnt exist.
the same argument was being made for nylander up until recently as well.

 

[djdev]

How many industries to people blame the person who got overpaid on the employee and not the person who agreed to it? People just blindly support Dubas for some reason instead of realizing his whole analytics and new approach were hollow pitches of a snake oil salesman.

lol im not here to blame anyone, and dubas takes plenty of heat here. but ye, dubas and shanny and the board all agreed to what he was asking for.
if i go into my job and the boss says "how much do you think you are worth?" im shooting for the moon lol.

 

[djdev]

You should never sign a contract ASSUMING the cap will go up. That was his first mistake.

it wasnt really an assumption, im sure they have projected numbers to show these things, predicting what happened next was impossible and a once in a lifetime thing(lets hope at least)

 

[Apex Predator]

Keefe calls them out in the media and what happens next game ... No response ... Are these guys gonna quit on another Coach ??

They might be that’s why i don’t want to fire Keefe and give them a third coach.

 

[Apex Predator]

I've been just as critical of JT. The only thing he has going for him is a better attitude. Mitch is just a crying wuss.

Mitch has been talked up his whole life as being so great. He dominated the OHL and never went through adversity till now. Now he has people not talking him up and doesn’t know how to deal with adversity.

He’s too concerned with what others are saying and should be more focused on tuning them out and just do what Mitch can do. I bet if he just delates all his social media it would help clear his head. I feel that would also help a lot of people in the world not just famous people.

 

[VanW27]

fair points, but I think Marner said it best. He compared himself to McDavid and Matthews while the others compared themselves to him. So he wasn’t even thinking of Aho, Point and Rantanen as comparables.

I also think it’s part of the reason why fans are so angry. We are comparing him to players that were ultimately not even used as a comparible in negotiations

Regardless, the contract is on the books now. Not much point arguing about it, the question is what do we do next? Trade, hope he gets it together, alter the team around him, other?

The issues I'm seeing from Mitch are mental. I have no idea how much effort the Leafs and Marner are putting in on the psychological side but I definitely think Marner should be seeing a sports psychologist. MacKinnon has spoke up about how going to a sports psychologist changed his career. Everyone sees the player Nate is now but only a few years ago he was a disappointing 20G/50pts, 1OA pick, until he straightened himself out mentally and exploded in 2017/18

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In Marner's last 20 games (including playoffs)

0 goals/9 assists.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Start by taking MM off the #1 PP - ease up the pressure a tad. Also mix up the lines, he's become far far too predictable. dIt's too bad he wears the A b/c he should have as little to do with the media as possible.

 

[ER89]

Mitch has been talked up his whole life as being so great. He dominated the OHL and never went through adversity till now. Now he has people not talking him up and doesn’t know how to deal with adversity.

He’s too concerned with what others are saying and should be more focused on tuning them out and just do what Mitch can do. I bet if he just delates all his social media it would help clear his head. I feel that would also help a lot of people in the world not just famous people.

I don't particularly how he does it. Just do it. And IF he plays at a 90pt pace - great that is his job given his contract. Although he'd still have to show the f*** up during playoffs.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Marner could ask for 20 million a year and no one would care if the cap wasn’t there. The Leafs are rich enough to ice three NHL teams and have money leftover so that would never be an issue. Since there is a cap, he is now directly hurting the team and that’s what sours fans.

As for sacrificing his body, the entire sport is built on putting your body on the line. You don’t join the UFC and then refuse to take a punch. You don’t join the NFL and then shy away from tackles. Same goes for playoff hockey. You take a hit to make a play. This is something Marner struggles with.
.

Once everyone noticed Marner was pushed off the puck easily and avoided contact, that was it. He took the league by surprise for a couple of years but the NHL is filled with PROs who learn. And when I say everyone I mean Fans and ofcourse the other players on other teams.

It is not an accident or a coincidence how he is getting 0 goals, and all assists since last years playoffs - He is playing hot potato with the puck more than anyone else.

Unless something changes drastically in his play, physique, or approach to the game... Its gonna be bad this season.

We needed that cap space to balance the team.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

it wasnt really an assumption, im sure they have projected numbers to show these things, predicting what happened next was impossible and a once in a lifetime thing(lets hope at least)

Doesn't it seem to you that Dubas never seems to have a plan B? They get caught off guard on things but seem to take forever to fix the problems...be it Salaries or goalies...they seem to have a vision of how things will turn out and when they don't turn out as intended...they are just flabbergasted about what to do.

I have a cousin that if you ask to move a social gathering because circumstances have changed...she will not even comprehend an alternative...she will just say "But we planned for the 14th...the 14th was the day...how can we do something else when we planned for the 14th?

That is what Dubas seems to be like..."The cap was going up...Marner would not be taking up such a high cap %"...etc.

 

[HarryLime]

l

 

[francis246]

I am a Marner backer.
Truth be told there isn't a single current Leaf that I do not support (Well maybe not Kerfoot and his $3.5). And I do waiver on Engvall a bit because of his frustrating ups and downs.

But

One thing stuck out for me about Marner and the Prime series. An under the radar comment by Matthews.
They were talking about food and diet and it was mentioned that Mitch could eat that. And basically Mitch still eats what he wants.

I have sort of held a grudge about this since I heard this. A top player should do everything to make him the best possible player he can be.
Kessel would be my example of this. Was very good but how good could he be?

meh he probably has a good metoblism, it’s still a bad habit he should fix. But that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. Some people can eat so bad but be in top physical shape. It’s not fair lol

 

[francis246]

Regardless, the contract is on the books now. Not much point arguing about it, the question is what do we do next? Trade, hope he gets it together, alter the team around him, other?

The issues I'm seeing from Mitch are mental. I have no idea how much effort the Leafs and Marner are putting in on the psychological side but I definitely think Marner should be seeing a sports psychologist. MacKinnon has spoke up about how going to a sports psychologist changed his career. Everyone sees the player Nate is now but only a few years ago he was a disappointing 20G/50pts, 1OA pick, until he straightened himself out mentally and exploded in 2017/18

i think you stay patient on mitch. The upside on mitch alone is worth staying the course. He’s already shown you he can completely dominate. I think you hedge your bets on him figuring it out. Because you will forever regret trading a 22 year old 90 point getter in his prime because he had a poor series and slow start to the year.

also the cap will go up and the contract will eventually be a steal based on the real money left on the contract. The extensions being made to players currently not even in the same atmosphere as Marner is crazy. Soon 10 mill for 60 point players will be the norm. Brady and Suzuki getting 8 million for 40 points is just brutal.

 

[djdev]

Doesn't it seem to you that Dubas never seems to have a plan B? They get caught off guard on things but seem to take forever to fix the problems...be it Salaries or goalies...they seem to have a vision of how things will turn out and when they don't turn out as intended...they are just flabbergasted about what to do.

I have a cousin that if you ask to move a social gathering because circumstances have changed...she will not even comprehend an alternative...she will just say "But we planned for the 14th...the 14th was the day...how can we do something else when we planned for the 14th?

That is what Dubas seems to be like..."The cap was going up...Marner would not be taking up such a high cap %"...etc.

there are reasonable things to plan for, this wasnt one of them. its like every location in the city capable of having an sort of social gathering being booked for an unknown amount of time at the last moment. how is that supposed to be planned for and how do you reschedule that???

all of our current cap problems have stemmed from this one completely out of left field global crisis, every NHL team is jumping through hoops to get under the cap. TB has "favourable" salaries with their stars and still needed to do outrageous shit with the cap last year lol.