Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[93LEAFS]

Which is only a tenable solution if he doesn't care where he plays, or doesn't care about being in Toronto specifically (which it's probably safe to assume he does).

And of course he could end up in another market with a similarly rabid fanbase. Can't imagine he'd be having an easier time in basically any other Canadian city right now. So what then? Keep asking for trades and uprooting your life every so often? Would've been easier to just leave a few bucks on the table.

Except for the idea that it guarantees you less criticism is ridiculous and built on a flawed premise. So, take as much as you can. You can't dictate how people respond to you. You don't give up 15% of your salary for a variable that can't be controlled, and only a fool would do as such.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Which is only a tenable solution if he doesn't care where he plays, or doesn't care about being in Toronto specifically (which it's probably safe to assume he does).

And of course he could end up in another market with a similarly rabid fanbase. Can't imagine he'd be having an easier time in basically any other Canadian city right now. So what then? Keep asking for trades and uprooting your life every so often? Would've been easier to just leave a few bucks on the table.

The other part about it is...You (Marner) are taking money out of the pockets of your teammates...You're not taking extra from a big corporation and going home as if you worked for Bell or Rogers. How do you look at Spezza in the eyes when he is working for practically free and you had to squeeze out every last cent? You're helping send Hyman to the Oilers...etc.

There is a salary cap...Bell can't just raise their long distance rates or charge extra to make up for greedy players. That's why this team is called a group all the time and not a team by management. There is no team here...just a bunch of rich guys and then mercenaries that take the minimum wage jobs to fill out the roster.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I avoid any products or services that MM endorses...just plain not going to give any money to those companies that use Marner to slog their wares...I am not alone in that...I guarantee it.

I don't even know what any of them endorse.

 

[keonsbitterness]

So it's still all about the money with Marner, gotcha...

Not all, but a lot, as with other players. They don't have agents for nothing.

 

[LilySmoov]

Except for the idea that it guarantees you less criticism is ridiculous and built on a flawed premise. So, take as much as you can. You can't dictate how people respond to you.

This assumes, again, he doesn't actually want to be a Leaf specifically, and furthermore that we can know exactly how much criticism he can handle before it starts getting to him. And obviously you can't dictate how people respond to you, but you can certainly influence it. If he's meaningfully invested in his perception among Leaf fans, then he dropped the ball, period.

 

[93LEAFS]

This assumes, again, he doesn't actually want to be a Leaf specifically, and furthermore that we can know exactly how much criticism he can handle before it starts getting to him. And obviously you can't dictate how people respond to you, but you can certainly influence it. If he's meaningfully invested in his perception among Leaf fans, then he dropped the ball, period.

Except taking less money doesn't guarantee less criticism. Which is why you don't give up actual money on the notion it might happen. Fans are fickle, if he plays up the level he believes he's capable of, then they'll praise the ground he walks on again. Taking less money so people criticize you less when you might be playing bad is a defeatist attitude that probably is relatively non-existent among top-tier professional athletes.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If he's meaningfully invested in his perception among Leaf fans, then he dropped the ball, period.

Both can be true.

 

[LilySmoov]

Except taking less money doesn't guarantee less criticism. Which is why you don't give up actual money on the notion it might happen. Fans are fickle, if he plays up the level he believes he's capable of, then they'll praise the ground he walks on again. Taking less money so people criticize you less when you might be playing bad is a defeatist attitude that probably is relatively non-existent among top-tier professional athletes.

I think you're getting too caught up in the concept of guarantees, that's way too strict a way to frame this. Almost nothing anyone does anywhere guarantees anything ever. And it's kinda funny you use the word "defeatist" when the idea that you shouldn't have even attempted to mitigate a potential consequence because you can't know with infallible certainty that your attempt will be successful is literally one of the most defeatist positions it's possible to have.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think you're getting too caught up in the concept of guarantees, that's way too strict a way to frame this. Almost nothing anyone does anywhere guarantees anything ever. And it's kinda funny you use the word "defeatist" when the idea that you shouldn't have even attempted to mitigate a potential consequence because you can't know with infallible certainty that your attempt will be successful is literally one of the most defeatist positions it's possible to have.

Money is guaranteed in an NHL contract. Public perception of you can't be. You don't trade guarantees for maybes, and anyone who advises such a course of action is being ridiculous.

 

[Ports]

Marner is Superstar in pond hockey not physical pro hockey. Other teams know that and that he has a below average shot. He’s lost his effectiveness because he hasn’t been able to up his game. Needs another 20 pounds and stronger wrists. It’s like a boy against men.

 

[Ports]

I can tell by posts who’s actually been a high level athlete or has been around high performance and people who have no idea about high performance or the mentality athletes need to have day to day. This is standard, this is what we teach athletes (I’m saying we because I work with high performance athletes daily). Move on to the next game, you have to let go of bad performances, no use dwelling on it. What more do you want him to say in his press conferences.

At this point a lot of you are just being assholes, I thought this was his best press conference to date. He was honest, he answered the question, direct quote “I need to create more second chance opportunities, I need to get to the dirty areas. We need to get guys in on shots” so to say that he isn’t willing to change is just a bullshit made up HF narrative. At this point I hope he leaves the leafs and wins multiple cups like Kessel did and we never see the light of day. The so called “fans” of this team make being a leaf fan worthless. Y’all suck.

Who cares about press conferences. He needs to show and up play with heart and courage and earn his pay cheque. He’s playing scared and his holding out and putting the team over the barrel looks pretty bad now and that’s what fans are unhappy about. Tired of coddled kids who don’t earn their pay cheques.

 

[Ports]

Marner's psyche or state of has always been in the back of my mind since he took a leave of absence in London to regroup . He seems to fall into self doubt more easily than most players at his level . I see his play from last playoffs to now as him having no confidence in himself . All this crap that teams have figured him out , he's one dimensional ect are just that , crap. His play is dictated by himself , when he's confident and playing his game he's almost unstoppable but when he's not he's a shell of himself . If there was ever a player who needs a player psychologist it's Marner . Unfortunately playing for the Leaf's may always be to much pressure . He wouldn't be the first to falter under the pressure . Gilmour himself left under similar situation.

Comparing Marner to Gilmour is a joke. Dougie was a leader and a winner with the heart of a lion. Marner is a still a kid but wanted to be paid like a leader and he can’t live up to it.

 

[francis246]

Marner is Superstar in pond hockey not physical pro hockey. Other teams know that and that he has a below average shot. He’s lost his effectiveness because he hasn’t been able to up his game. Needs another 20 pounds and stronger wrists. It’s like a boy against men.

lmao best winger in the NHL last year. NHL 1st All-Star team.

“pond-hockey superstar” dumbest narrative.

 

[francis246]

The other part about it is...You (Marner) are taking money out of the pockets of your teammates...You're not taking extra from a big corporation and going home as if you worked for Bell or Rogers. How do you look at Spezza in the eyes when he is working for practically free and you had to squeeze out every last cent? You're helping send Hyman to the Oilers...etc.

There is a salary cap...Bell can't just raise their long distance rates or charge extra to make up for greedy players. That's why this team is called a group all the time and not a team by management. There is no team here...just a bunch of rich guys and then mercenaries that take the minimum wage jobs to fill out the roster.

It’s not Marner’s responsibility to get those guys paid. Now you guys are just taking this shit way to far. He is not responsible (salary wise) for anyone but himself. Each player has representation for a reason. Zach Hyman if he really wanted to be here would have taken less to be here. He didn’t, guess what, it had nothing to do with Marner’s 11 million. It had everything to do with him wanting a huge payday that he’ll never get otherwise. All these players are driven by money, it’s a big part of why they play. They sacrifice their bodies, time with their families in order to earn the maximum income they can.

Spezza is making league minimum because he wants to. He’s made over 60 million in his career already I believe. Spezza can leave and make more if he wanted to, he doesn’t want to. That’s not Mitch Marner’s problem.

 

[LilySmoov]

Money is guaranteed in an NHL contract. Public perception of you can't be. You don't trade guarantees for maybes, and anyone who advises such a course of action is being ridiculous.

There are plenty of reasons to trade guarantees for maybes, like when the guaranteed thing is something you already have in abundance, and the maybe is something you ostensibly value quite highly and would reasonably want to increase your odds of acquiring.

And your framing of this remains disingenuous. Again, it's not:
Money + decreased probability of positive fan reception
vs.
No money + increased probability of positive fan reception

It's:
A f***load of money + decreased probability of positive fan reception
vs.
A marginally smaller f***load of money + increased probability of positive fan reception

If you're an already rich person (who is about to become substantially richer no matter what) who is also quite affected by what people think of you and you still choose the former option, you're stupid (and/or greedy) in a way that defies description.

And not for nothing, but you know we're posting on a hockey forum right now, yeah? Trading guarantees for maybes literally happens multiple times a year, every year. Like there's a whole day dedicated to general managers and the media making a spectacle of exactly that. Average people take the day off work to ensure they don't miss it. Someone should've told David Poile to not trade a guarantee for a maybe when he traded Martin Erat for Filip Forsberg. The idea that "you don't trade guarantees for maybes" is demonstrably false.

This conversation might be getting too abstract.

 

[93LEAFS]

There are plenty of reasons to trade guarantees for maybes, like when the guaranteed thing is something you already have in abundance, and the maybe is something you ostensibly value quite highly and would reasonably want to increase your odds of acquiring.

And your framing of this remains disingenuous. Again, it's not:
Money + decreased probability of positive fan reception
vs.
No money + increased probability of positive fan reception

It's:
A f***load of money + decreased probability of positive fan reception
vs.
A marginally smaller f***load of money + increased probability of positive fan reception

If you're an already rich person (who is about to become substantially richer no matter what) who is also quite affected by what people think of you and you still choose the former option, you're stupid (and/or greedy) in a way that defies description.

And not for nothing, but you know we're posting on a hockey forum right now, yeah? Trading guarantees for maybes literally happens multiple times a year, every year. Like there's a whole day dedicated to general managers and the media making a spectacle of exactly that. Average people take the day off work to ensure they don't miss it. Someone should've told David Poile to not trade a guarantee for a maybe when he traded Martin Erat for Filip Forsberg. The idea that "you don't trade guarantees for maybes" is demonstrably false.

This conversation might be getting too abstract.

You don't trade financial guarantees when the return is highly abstract and offers no clear path to re-earn that money. And, I framed it as removing 15% of his salary. So, you saying what I'm saying is disingenuous is misleading. No agent or athlete would agree with this path. Since even if Marner was making 9m right now he would still be getting raked over the coals. Do people not bash Tavares despite the fact we know he took 2m less than San Jose was offering to play here? Did we take it easy on David Clarkson because he took less money than what Edmonton offered to come home?

Also, players aren't guaranteed. They are variables. Martin Erat of 2012 isn't guaranteed to be the same level of player in perpetuity. Guaranteed 10.6m USD is guaranteed to stay 10.6m USD (unless you want to get into currency exchanges and escrow).

 

[LilySmoov]

You don't trade financial guarantees when the return is highly abstract and offers no clear path to re-earn that money. And, I framed it as removing 15% of his salary. So, you saying what I'm saying is disingenuous is misleading. No agent or athlete would agree with this path. Since even if Marner was making 9m right now he would still be getting raked over the coals. Do people not bash Tavares despite the fact we know he took 2m less than San Jose was offering to play here? Did we take it easy on David Clarkson because he took less money than what Edmonton offered to come home?

They're guaranteed immense sums of money regardless; the disingenuous part is the mere usage of the phrase "trading financial guarantees" as though that's the complete picture of what's actually happening.

And the claim that no athlete or agent would agree to such a path needs to be accompanied by a caveat specifying the athlete in question is potentially quite susceptible to being fairly negatively affected by fan backlash. And if an athlete (knowing themselves) or an agent (knowing their athlete) fails to take such a thing into consideration, then, again, they're simply stupid and/or greedy to an objectively detrimental degree.

Tavares would be getting it worse from fans if he was making 13M instead of 11M almost without question. And Clarkson was still obscenely overpaid even with the paycut - why would anybody have taken it easy on a 4th liner being paid like a low-end 1st liner simply because he wasn't being paid like a high-end 1st liner instead?

 

[Gabriel426]

If Marner taken less like 9mil instead of 10.893mil. It won’t mean he will get less criticisms if he plays the way he has been playing. Let’s face it, even if he signs for 7mil on a bridge deal, if he plays the way he has been playing, he will still get criticisms.

 

[Lenovs]

If Marner taken less like 9mil instead of 10.893mil. It won’t mean he will get less criticisms if he plays the way he has been playing. Let’s face it, even if he signs for 7mil on a bridge deal, if he plays the way he has been playing, he will still get criticisms.

that's true, because he's playing like an underperforming 2.5 mil player right now.

 

[BigBlu]

Time for an old-fashioned benching.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Except taking less money doesn't guarantee less criticism. Which is why you don't give up actual money on the notion it might happen. Fans are fickle, if he plays up the level he believes he's capable of, then they'll praise the ground he walks on again. Taking less money so people criticize you less when you might be playing bad is a defeatist attitude that probably is relatively non-existent among top-tier professional athletes.

McDavid did.

They gave him a blank cheque and initially agreed on 13.25M x 8.

He realized the fans wouldn't like it so he cut it down to 12.5M x 8. And this guy is one of the greatest talents to play hockey who was always going to outplay his contract.

Marner's greed was his right but it deserves criticism. Such a selfish mindset and now it's leaking into everything he does. Constantly fails to accept his shortcomings, barely improves his game, and refuses to sacrifice his body in the playoffs.

 

[francis246]

McDavid did.

They gave him a blank cheque and initially agreed on 13.25M x 8.

He realized the fans wouldn't like it so he cut it down to 12.5M x 8. And this guy is one of the greatest talents to play hockey who was always going to outplay his contract.

Marner's greed was his right but it deserves criticism. Such a selfish mindset and now it's leaking into everything he does. Constantly fails to accept his shortcomings, barely improves his game, and refuses to sacrifice his body in the playoffs.

this is why the NHL is the least entertaining big four sport. No other sport critiques their players on contracts as much as the NHL and their fans. Cry over everything. In no other sport do players really leave money on the table. There’s this weird code in the NHL that’s so outdated. It’s also why NHL stars never maximize their career earnings.

each player has a brand that they need to take care of, they need to make sure their value is where they want it. It doesn’t make them greedy it makes them smart. Its their body they are putting on the line. Not yours, so you have no right to make any comments on anything lol. It’s not even your money LMAO.

Good for Connor for taking less to appease the fans, it’s still a bad financial decision. The notion that EVERYONE has to take less to appease the fan base is just complete horse shit.

 

[ZEBROA]

What he has done(when being his best) he can still do. Need some easy points to get going.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

July 2018 was a long time ago. It can be possible to have been excited for the Leafs future at the time of the signing and then having lived the future realize that big splash came at a big hidden cost.

This is true but not when evaluating a GM. If Tavares doesn't come through, it's on Tavares. If your GM doesn't want to sign Tavares in 2018 when he's saying you're his no.1 destination, you replace your GM with one that does.

I personally think this is borderline facts but people are too far gone in anger to accept this view.

 

[Peasy]

this is why the NHL is the least entertaining big four sport. No other sport critiques their players on contracts as much as the NHL and their fans. Cry over everything. In no other sport do players really leave money on the table. There’s this weird code in the NHL that’s so outdated. It’s also why NHL stars never maximize their career earnings.

each player has a brand that they need to take care of, they need to make sure their value is where they want it. It doesn’t make them greedy it makes them smart. Its their body they are putting on the line. Not yours, so you have no right to make any comments on anything lol. It’s not even your money LMAO.

Good for Connor for taking less to appease the fans, it’s still a bad financial decision. The notion that EVERYONE has to take less to appease the fan base is just complete horse shit.

This is likely due to the fact that every other sports league has flexibility with contracts. This is not the case in the NHL. Once a player signs the contract, you're essentially stuck with it. In every other sport there are so many options to get rid of a contract from an underperforming player.

Hypothetically speaking Marner could produce at a 40 point pace the rest of his contract and the leafs would just be stuck with it. Yeah of course fans are gunna talk about that. If his contract was in the NFL he could just get cut and be done with it.