Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[francis246]

wasn’t his contract year before all that?

Edit: nope I am wrong. Carry on lol

noo he scored the 94 that contract year. I think Dubas will also look back and regret saying no to that 8x9 the year before. In hindsight that deal was a steal. Marner at 9, Matthews at 11.5 looks better than it does now.

 

[Nylanderthal]

That is not something that really looks good on Dubas or the Leafs either though. Let a 90+ point 22 year old winger walk? Is that what helps this team get past the first round?

It lets Dubas look like a big man who never caved, but then he has a huge hole in his lineup in the middle of a window and nothing to use to fill it... Because you can be almost 100% sure that Marner's trade value also tanks if he walks away and won't sign any kind of reasonable deal. And if Marner was pissed off over losing some bonuses under Lou, do you really think he is going to take a more "team-friendly" deal after losing a full year of salary in the middle of his prime years?

Hindsight being 20/20 letting him walk for an OS then pivoting with 4 firsts and cap space wouldn’t of been the worst move ever. Theoretically they could’ve just ate marleaus last year (keeping that pick) and then signed someone like a Pietroangelo in FA for $9m, and used that difference to keep Hyman instead of Ritchie. I know it’s not an exact science what I’m saying, but $11m in cap + 4 firsts (maybe 5 with ours) trumps what we have now.

 

[francis246]

I mean... if you're going to defend greed from the top 0.00001% richest elite... what more is there to say?

That extra money doesn't come out of mlse's pockets. It comes out of his much poorer teammates pockets. It's unbelievable that such greed is being defended.

you think his teammates are pissed? The NHLPA is encouraging players to make the most the can make so that more players make more money. NHLPA probably is pissed off at guys like Point for taking less than they are worth. That only hurts the future contracts of players and lesser players.

also I’m defending anyone (not just Marner’s) right to make as much as you can in life. As an athlete you are guaranteed nothing. Maximize your career earnings, let the teams deal with the cap. You have to be selfish in this business.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Hindsight bring 20/20 letting him walk for an OS then pivoting with 4 firsts and cap space wouldn’t of been the worst move ever. Theoretically they could’ve just ate marleaus last year (keeping that pick) and then signed someone like a Pietroangelo in FA for $9m, and used that difference to keep Hyman instead of Ritchie. I know it’s not an exact science what I’m saying, but $11m in cap + 4 firsts (maybe 5 with ours) trumps what we have now.

Marner had to sign an offer sheet too though. Apparently CBJ offered him one; Marner turned it down.

It's the same issue with trading him. What team is going to give us proper value when Marner is going to want to be the highest paid player in the NHL if you want to get him on max term?

At least now most of his real dollars are paid out, so it is a lot more attractive than a Marner where a team needs to pay the full contract. Need to fit in the cap still, but there are a ton of teams who care less about that than the real money.

 

[Nylanderthal]

yes on the ice 100%. Managements job is to manage the cap. Not Marner’s. So what about Matthews, what the hell did he do to deserve 11 million. He’s greedy too then

Matthews cap% mirrors elite top C’s coming off their ELC prior to Eichel and Mcdavid. Each of Malkin Crosby toews stamkos staal Tavares kopitar all signed similar 5-6 year deals at similar cap%. Marners the outlier and an awful one at that.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Marner had to sign an offer sheet too though. Apparently CBJ offered him one; Marner turned it down.

It's the same issue with trading him. What team is going to give us proper value when Marner is going to want to be the highest paid player in the NHL if you want to get him on max term?

At least now most of his real dollars are paid out, so it is a lot more attractive than a Marner where a team needs to pay the full contract. Need to fit in the cap still, but there are a ton of teams who care less about that than the real money.

As shown by aho & kotkeneimi teams and players will sign OS if that’s their best course of action. If Kyle’s stance was 8x9.5 or sit Mitch either would’ve signed it, or signed an OS. I for the most part have defending managements decisions but this was a poor one.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Possibly but he out produced Matthews by 20 points. So I don’t think he was wrong in saying he’s just as valuable to the team. If you don’t like him fine, but don’t try and undervalue what he did. He scored 94 points, that’s not easy. How many players can get close to 100 points in a season? Not many. It was an outstanding season for him.

I'm not under valuing him. The historical precedents are not there. Definitely not Matthews or McDavid.

 

[rielledup]

This is such bullshit. Marner was always heavily overrated by Leafs fans, as many thought he was as good as Matthews and a level above Nylander. He ruined all of that by threatening to sign offersheets or go to Europe if he didn't end up getting an obscene overpayment from Dubas, while throwing teammates under the bus in the process. Speaking of Nylander, he has dealt with way worse from the fans and the media and has only gotten stronger as a player. Marner wilting under the backlash he brought himself is impossible to sympathize with, and only makes him look worse

Up until now he clearly was on a different level than Nylander. Marner has the 5th highest even strength points in the league 3 seasons ago and was on pace for 100 last season. Do you think its a coincidence that JT had 47 and Matthews was on pace for 65 playing with Marner and that half of those goals were created by Marner?Nylander would have never come close to those numbers, Marner's creativity and vision are second to none and on a completely different level than Nylanders.

However, at this point with Nylanders ability to be more effective in the playoffs it's more of a debate.

 

[francis246]

I'm not under valuing him. The historical precedents are not there. Definitely not Matthews or McDavid.

What about Patrick Kane?

also he’s been a consistent top 15 point getter the last 3 seasons. Prior to this one. If we are calling a spade a spade. He hasn’t performed in the playoffs and it’s really the only thing people on here have against him. So if he’s not worth his contract, neither is Matthews.

my biggest gripe is people blaming him alone for everything. Last I checked hockey is is a team sport. He’s also got JT and Matthews lots of open looks to start the season and they’ve just completely missed. JT has been having trouble scoring the last two years, Matthews hits the posts way too much for my liking.

 

[kb]

He needs a fresh start in a city he didn't extort for every single dollar he could.

 

[Gabriel426]

He needs a fresh start in a city he didn't extort for every single dollar he could.

Even that will be hard as given his Caphit, he will most likely be the highest paid player on his new team. Which means he is expected to carry that team.
Marner probably have the vision to be the top dog but he lacks the skills and mentality to be one.

 

[myleafs]

Wouldn’t even have to be much less money. If he took $10mx8 we’d all be overjoyed and probably willing to cut him some slack. It’s the fact he pushed it as far up up up as he could dollar wise while limiting term to 6 years. He had to have his cake and eat it too.

Guaranteed even if he took less he would be raked over the coals...guys making under 2 milly get raked over the coals all the time for under preforming.

 

[93LEAFS]

marner deserves no blame, if he sat out like willy did maybe its a bit more grey, he asked for a number they accepted. hows that on him? would you leave money on the table at your job willingly?

How many industries to people blame the person who got overpaid on the employee and not the person who agreed to it? People just blindly support Dubas for some reason instead of realizing his whole analytics and new approach were hollow pitches of a snake oil salesman.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Guaranteed even if he took less he would be raked over the coals...guys making under 2 milly get raked over the coals all the time for under preforming.

Maybe, maybe not. Leafs nation is massive and therefore has some pretty dim lightbulbs amongst its ranks. I still feel if they did the 8x8 deal that management wanted to do the season before (Paul marner wanted 8x9) or had they agreed to 8x9-10m after his breakout year he wouldn’t be eating the shit he is in public, and definitely wouldn’t be internalizing it as much as he obviously is now.

 

[kb]

How many industries to people blame the person who got overpaid on the employee and not the person who agreed to it? People just blindly support Dubas for some reason instead of realizing his whole analytics and new approach were hollow pitches of a snake oil salesman.

Hahahahaha.....

The lengths minds will go to create and justify things that are hilariously wrong. Marner went on an offer sheet tour FFS. He was trying to embarrass his GM, when all he did is embarrass himself and put his GM in a box.

Marner is the ultimate definition of a selfish non-team playing asshole. And up until last night, I defended him.

Seeing his reaction to Simmonds spoke volumes....the attention and the adoration was not for him....and he cried on the bench about it.

 

[93LEAFS]

Hahahahaha.....

The lengths minds will go to create and justify things that are hilariously wrong. Marner went on an offer sheet tour FFS. He was trying to embarrass his GM, when all he did is embarrass himself and put his GM in a box.

Marner is the ultimate definition of a selfish non-team playing asshole. And up until last night, I defended him.

Seeing his reaction to Simmonds spoke volumes....the attention and the adoration was not for him....and he cried on the bench about it.

The lengths people will go to blindly defend Dubas, when the team is worse than when he got the job..... I guess its always someone else's fault. If Marner is such a terrible player and person, then why did Dubas pay him without being forced by an offer sheet?

Dubas believed he could pay all the stars, and then capitalize on undervalued players on bargains. Outside of Spezza how is that working out?

 

[studebaker17]

Possibly but he out produced Matthews by 20 points. So I don’t think he was wrong in saying he’s just as valuable to the team. If you don’t like him fine, but don’t try and undervalue what he did. He scored 94 points, that’s not easy. How many players can get close to 100 points in a season? Not many. It was an outstanding season for him.

Leaf's haven't had a player even close to that level in 30 yrs almost since Gilmour. Possibly Sundin may of hit that number with better wingers but that's up for debate. What's even crazier is most of his points are 5 on 5 . Leafs had a decent pp and Marner could easily have another bushel of points . He's being criminally underrated on this thread . I mean i was pretty emotional myself after the playoffs and would of traded all of them , but after a little time i realized we're lucky to have all of the big 4. The debate should be more of who would you trade to improve anther position outright. To me it's a goalie , i mean a real money goalie like when we had Belfour and Cujo . Back in those days all we wanted was wingers to play with Sundin . A second line , ect , ect .

 

[studebaker17]

noo he scored the 94 that contract year. I think Dubas will also look back and regret saying no to that 8x9 the year before. In hindsight that deal was a steal. Marner at 9, Matthews at 11.5 looks better than it does now.

From day one it was all wrong. Holding Nylander and Marner back a couple years wasn't smart imo. If they were in the NHL a year earlier their contract years at the end would of been way less leverage . They could of at that time also done a bridge deal if they wanted instead that bought a few years of cheaper production . Tat said they also had a year in advance to get them signed and didn't . Handled very poorly imo.

 

[Racer88]

noo he scored the 94 that contract year. I think Dubas will also look back and regret saying no to that 8x9 the year before. In hindsight that deal was a steal. Marner at 9, Matthews at 11.5 looks better than it does now.

Do you think Marner is even worth 9 with the way he is playing?

 

[francis246]

Do you think Marner is even worth 9 with the way he is playing?

yes because I’m not short sighted and I don’t hold a bad start to the season against them. In order to get to the playoffs you have to perform in the regular season which he has up to this point.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

you think his teammates are pissed? The NHLPA is encouraging players to make the most the can make so that more players make more money. NHLPA probably is pissed off at guys like Point for taking less than they are worth. That only hurts the future contracts of players and lesser players.

also I’m defending anyone (not just Marner’s) right to make as much as you can in life. As an athlete you are guaranteed nothing. Maximize your career earnings, let the teams deal with the cap. You have to be selfish in this business.

And the bolded is the problem.

The players hired shark agents and acted as selfishly as humanly possible facing off against a rookie "nice guy" who overall seems pretty selfless.

Dubas honestly just seems too nice for this role.

 

[GoBuds14]

The lengths people will go to blindly defend Dubas, when the team is worse than when he got the job..... I guess its always someone else's fault. If Marner is such a terrible player and person, then why did Dubas pay him without being forced by an offer sheet?

Dubas believed he could pay all the stars, and then capitalize on undervalued players on bargains. Outside of Spezza how is that working out?

I agree, the team is worse and it is poorly constructed. That being said, you have to take into account how COVID affected the salary cap. When Dubas signed Marner, Tavares, Matthews, it was assumed the cap would be considerably higher than what it currently is, thus making the contracts appear even worse. Don’t get my words twisted, I don’t like either contract, but the circumstances surrounding the cap and how those contracts would fit in with roster construction were out of his control and quite frankly very unlucky

 

[TMLAM34]

I agree, the team is worse and it is poorly constructed. That being said, you have to take into account how COVID affected the salary cap. When Dubas signed Marner, Tavares, Matthews, it was assumed the cap would be considerably higher than what it currently is, thus making the contracts appear even worse. Don’t get my words twisted, I don’t like either contract, but the circumstances surrounding the cap and how those contracts would fit in with roster construction were out of his control and quite frankly very unlucky

You should never sign a contract ASSUMING the cap will go up. That was his first mistake.

 

[francis246]

And the bolded is the problem.

The players hired shark agents and acted as selfishly as humanly possible facing off against a rookie "nice guy" who overall seems pretty selfless.

Dubas honestly just seems too nice for this role.

save me the self-righteous act man lol. Point and those guys didn’t take 9 million to help their team out. They are just as greedy. TB was way over the cap. If point wanted to help he would have taken a lot less than 9 so they didn’t have to throw as many guys overboard as they had to this year.

 

[Brown Dog]

I always kinda thought the whole "change of scenery" thing was mostly B.S., but it sure seems like Marner is in dire need of it. Its like he's seeking to avenge four years of disappointment and the fanbase resentment of his contract every time he touches the puck.