Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[SeaOfBlue]

The 8x9M deal was 1yr before his final year of his entry level deal. It would have been crazy to pay him so much after just 2yrs. He wanted that way before Auston signed his extension.

The problem was Dubas caving in at the end. He should have called his bluff and let him walk...he would have stayed because nobody else would have shelled out that kind of money...not even CBJ who wanted him to sign a 7yr deal for the offer sheet but Marner wanted 5yrs.

The absolute worst part about all of this contract stuff is that the team got nothing extra. We gave them NMC and the AAV along with up front money. We got nothing in return...no deal of any sort. That was on Dubas. Now if AM is frustrated and won't sign an extension before his deal is up, we have to either trade him before his last season or worry he walks away for nothing.

That is not something that really looks good on Dubas or the Leafs either though. Let a 90+ point 22 year old winger walk? Is that what helps this team get past the first round?

It lets Dubas look like a big man who never caved, but then he has a huge hole in his lineup in the middle of a window and nothing to use to fill it... Because you can be almost 100% sure that Marner's trade value also tanks if he walks away and won't sign any kind of reasonable deal. And if Marner was pissed off over losing some bonuses under Lou, do you really think he is going to take a more "team-friendly" deal after losing a full year of salary in the middle of his prime years?

 

[Stephen]

While he may have received less criticism, I don't think him taking less money and that money being used elsewhere would have really made any difference. Let's say the cap difference lets us keep Hyman instead of having Ritchie. Do you think that really is really the reason why the Leafs would not progress in the playoffs? Didn't make a difference the first 5 times.

The only difference would have been if Marner also played better, which is not a guarantee even with reduced pressure and criticism. This isn't a team that is missing some big piece from outside of the organization... This is an organization which is missing a big piece that is already in the organization and is not playing up to any kind of the responsibilities that are placed upon him, regardless of whether he is making 8.5 mill or 11 mill.

And it is not really a one time thing anymore. It is fine if he struggled in 2019 but came back strong in 2020 and 2021. That is what happened with the core guys in Tampa, and they got back to back Cups out of it. But Marner struggled in 2019 and then somehow progressively got worse in 2020 and 2021, which is why it is now justifiable for him to feel a lot of the heat he is feeling, and not just because of the contract.

There's a Hockey News Draft preview from around 2015 which talked about how Marner had a very slow start in London during the 2014-15 season and went home at the start of the season. I'll have to dig it up from the archives but it's an interesting insight into his mental makeup. He had a crisis in production in confidence and thought about quitting the game before going back and blossoming as the OHL superstar he became at the time of the draft. That is to say he's a guy probably suffers from confidence issues even though he's got the happy kid persona or at least has high highs and very low lows. As time goes on it seems pretty obvious that's not the stuff of a big market franchise player. But what's worse is that crisis in confidence has now become the personality of the franchise itself. Brittle, arrogant, frustrated, haunted.

 

[francis246]

Your opinion is incorrect.

The extra money/overpayment that Marner demanded doesn't affect his lifestyle in the slightest. He would be of the crazy elite/rich 0.00001% regardless.

Say it to any non-greedy regular person. "Would you rather $50 mil right now, and be seen as a hero, or $60 mil right now an likely seen as a villain?"

Everybody would take the $50 mil.

Marner negotiated as though he is a tier above Rantanen/Point/Aho. But he's not a tier above. Marner's camp were wrong/horrible to demand such an overpayment. And Dubas was wrong/horrible to cave to it.

youre acting like those players didn’t start at 11 million. Ofc they did. That’s how they got to 9 million. It’s a negotiation. Both sides have to agree. If you don’t like it don’t accept. Again I’m not sure why you keep blaming Marner for that. That is not his problem. It’s not his job to be mindful of the cap. His job is to make the most amount of money possible. Simple. It is the team’s responsibility to manage the cap.

if I come to you and say I want 11 million. Are you going to say okay have it? Or you going to tell me to f*** off? Probably the latter right? So why didn’t the leafs do that is the real question.

You keep referencing other players. But by all accounts, they asked for 10+ mill, each and every team said NO, take what we are offering or sit. Especially Brayden Point, that negotiation was not all peaches and roses.

 

[francis246]

The 8x9M deal was 1yr before his final year of his entry level deal. It would have been crazy to pay him so much after just 2yrs. He wanted that way before Auston signed his extension.

The problem was Dubas caving in at the end. He should have called his bluff and let him walk...he would have stayed because nobody else would have shelled out that kind of money...not even CBJ who wanted him to sign a 7yr deal for the offer sheet but Marner wanted 5yrs.

The absolute worst part about all of this contract stuff is that the team got nothing extra. We gave them NMC and the AAV along with up front money. We got nothing in return...no deal of any sort. That was on Dubas. Now if AM is frustrated and won't sign an extension before his deal is up, we have to either trade him before his last season or worry he walks away for nothing.

they should have jumped all over that deal. Because now is that not the going rate for players at Marner’s level?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

That is not something that really looks good on Dubas or the Leafs either though. Let a 90+ point 22 year old winger walk? Is that what helps this team get past the first round?

It lets Dubas look like a big man who never caved, but then he has a huge hole in his lineup in the middle of a window and nothing to use to fill it... Because you can be almost 100% sure that Marner's trade value also tanks if he walks away and won't sign any kind of reasonable deal. And if Marner was pissed off over losing some bonuses under Lou, do you really think he is going to take a more "team-friendly" deal after losing a full year of salary in the middle of his prime years?

I doubt very much that Marner is asking for 3x9m if he sees what Point and Rantaanan sign for. It would have been much more prudent to let the other teams sign the RFA's first and then deal with it. Worst case is everyone over pays their RFA's and you have to over pay Marner....but by going first he really stepped in it.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

There's a Hockey News Draft preview from around 2015 which talked about how Marner had a very slow start in London during the 2014-15 season and went home at the start of the season. I'll have to dig it up from the archives but it's an interesting insight into his mental makeup. He had a crisis in production in confidence and thought about quitting the game before going back and blossoming as the OHL superstar he became at the time of the draft. That is to say he's a guy probably suffers from confidence issues even though he's got the happy kid persona or at least has high highs and very low lows. As time goes on it seems pretty obvious that's not the stuff of a big market franchise player. But what's worse is that crisis in confidence has now become the personality of the franchise itself. Brittle, arrogant, frustrated, haunted.

As you said, I would separate Marner from the rest of the team. We can't project Marner's confidence issues on everyone else, especially when we have seen a positive response from them.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

youre acting like those players didn’t start at 11 million. Ofc they did. That’s how they got to 9 million. It’s a negotiation. Both sides have to agree. If you don’t like it don’t accept. Again I’m not sure why you keep blaming Marner for that. That is not his problem. It’s not his job to be mindful of the cap. His job is to make the most amount of money possible. Simple. It is the team’s responsibility to manage the cap.

if I come to you and say I want 11 million. Are you going to say okay have it? Or you going to tell me to f*** off? Probably the latter right? So why didn’t the leafs do that is the real question.

You keep referencing other players. But by all accounts, they asked for 10+ mill, each and every team said NO, take what we are offering or sit. Especially Brayden Point, that negotiation was not all peaches and roses.

When the other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players saw that they couldn't get more than fair market value, they signed. You make it sound like Marner just asked for 11 mil and Dubas said yes. He was willing to sit. The other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players were not willing to sit in order to get an unprecedented dramatic overpayment.

But don't get me wrong... It's also on Dubas for caving to Marner's outrageous demands.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

When the other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players saw that they couldn't get more than fair market value, they signed. You make it sound like Marner just asked for 11 mil and Dubas said yes. He was willing to sit. The other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players were not willing to sit in order to get an unprecedented dramatic overpayment.

But don't get me wrong... It's also on Dubas for caving to Marner's outrageous demands.

It's on BOTH of them. Marner for squeezing so much and Dubas for giving it. In the end...both will probably be gone from the team in a year if this keeps up. I can see Marner asking for a trade to get out of this mess and that will make things even worse for Dubas in trying to get any value.

 

[francis246]

When the other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players saw that they couldn't get more than fair market value, they signed. You make it sound like Marner just asked for 11 mil and Dubas said yes. He was willing to sit. The other (less awful/selfish/greedy) players were not willing to sit in order to get an unprecedented dramatic overpayment.

But don't get me wrong... It's also on Dubas for caving to Marner's outrageous demands.

LMAO it’s easy to accept something when you’ve already been to a cup final and won a cup. Like come on. There are many different variables that come into play. Not one negotiation is the same. You’re grasping at straws now. We will never know the full external pressure that caused Marner to ask for 11 mill. It’s already out there that his dad had something to do with it. I can’t confirm or deny that.

but I will never fault a player for going after as much as they can make. You only get one career. Either way the salary cap is the biggest joke ever. It punishes both players and teams. NHL should adapt the NBA. Include a luxury tax

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I doubt very much that Marner is asking for 3x9m if he sees what Point and Rantaanan sign for. It would have been much more prudent to let the other teams sign the RFA's first and then deal with it. Worst case is everyone over pays their RFA's and you have to over pay Marner....but by going first he really stepped in it.

Other RFA's weren't willing to sign before Marner. They waited for him to set the market.

Besides, it has nothing to do with those RFA's anyways. Marner wasn't comparing himself to Point and Rantanen, just like he wasn't comparing himself to Sebastian Aho, who signed months before Marner did. Marner was comparing himself to Matthews and McDavid.

 

[Stephen]

As you said, I would separate Marner from the rest of the team. We can't project Marner's confidence issues on everyone else, especially when we have seen a positive response from them.

Exactly. The only way this group can succeed is if we erase the whole failure narrative and just build a normal, honest to goodness team that's just a typical blend of skill and effort, not trying to reinvent the wheel. It's got to be about the 20 guys on the roster and what each of them bring as a collective and not a Mitch Marner redemption tour and not a Kyle Dubas "we can and we will."

Early in the season it seems like we are headed towards a flame out scenario, so maybe too late to switch that, but if things were done differently, I think that would have been better.

 

[Stephen]

Other RFA's weren't willing to sign before Marner. They waited for him to set the market.

Besides, it has nothing to do with those RFA's anyways. Marner wasn't comparing himself to Point and Rantanen, just like he wasn't comparing himself to Sebastian Aho, who signed months before Marner did. Marner was comparing himself to Matthews and McDavid.

What's worse is as time goes on and each of Aho, Rantanen, Point and Barzal achieve more and more in their careers, Marner just grips his stick a little tighter.

 

[Sundinisagod]

youre acting like those players didn’t start at 11 million. Ofc they did. That’s how they got to 9 million. It’s a negotiation. Both sides have to agree. If you don’t like it don’t accept. Again I’m not sure why you keep blaming Marner for that. That is not his problem. It’s not his job to be mindful of the cap. His job is to make the most amount of money possible. Simple. It is the team’s responsibility to manage the cap.

if I come to you and say I want 11 million. Are you going to say okay have it? Or you going to tell me to f*** off? Probably the latter right? So why didn’t the leafs do that is the real question.

You keep referencing other players. But by all accounts, they asked for 10+ mill, each and every team said NO, take what we are offering or sit. Especially Brayden Point, that negotiation was not all peaches and roses.

His job is to make the Leafs a better team. By being overly greedy he has made them worse.

 

[Apex Predator]

What made him think he's this Important? He just signed a RFA contract.

"And now I'm here to stay" ....Mitch you signed a 6 year contract and apparently wanted it to be even less years. Doesn't sound like a guy doing his best to lock himself into his beloved city.

So much bull%$& in this letter.

If he truly cared he wouldn’t be reading if from a piece of paper. It would have came from his heart. No passion in him when reading this. It was PR move for damage control.

 

[myleafs]

THAT IS WHAT YOU TEACH HIGH PERFORMANCE ATHLETES. JFC

it is a standard theme that is taught so Marner is correct, you have to stay patient with your game. When you are a high performance athlete or pro athlete, You do NOT make drastic changes in your approach to the game… at least not in season. That is panic and it usually results in you being a less effective player. You can make minor adjustments like he talked about. But you don’t completely change your approach and how you play the game during the season.

he also isn’t lying. They are creating a ton of offense but they need to finish and make very fine adjustments to actually hit the target and bury in an open net.

please do some research on the art and science of coaching. I don’t want you to take that as an insult. But I’m seeing a lot of posters criticize Marner’s press conference but what he’s repeating is probably the conversations that he’s having with the coaching staff and the mental performance staff as well.

What is missing from his pressers is humility. someone like Jack takes full responsibility and acknowledges he wasn't good enough.

 

[francis246]

His job is to make the Leafs a better team. By being overly greedy he has made them worse.

yes on the ice 100%. Managements job is to manage the cap. Not Marner’s. So what about Matthews, what the hell did he do to deserve 11 million. He’s greedy too then

 

[Sundinisagod]

yes on the ice 100%. Managements job is to manage the cap. Not Marner’s. So what about Matthews, what the hell did he do to deserve 11 million. He’s greedy too then

Matthews probably would have got a 15m x 7 offersheet from Arizona. It was nice of him to not go to rfa status and let that happen. He didn't hold out to get the money he did and there are historical precedents to his contract, unlike Money Mitch.

 

[francis246]

What is missing from his pressers is humility. someone like Jack takes full responsibility and acknowledges he wasn't good enough.

jack seems so full of shit I’m sorry. It’s a bit much and over done. Do you want Marner to go cry and apologize? I think Marner is just being himself, you can’t please everyone when it comes to media availability.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Other RFA's weren't willing to sign before Marner. They waited for him to set the market.

Besides, it has nothing to do with those RFA's anyways. Marner wasn't comparing himself to Point and Rantanen, just like he wasn't comparing himself to Sebastian Aho, who signed months before Marner did. Marner was comparing himself to Matthews and McDavid.

You are correct...he was comparing himself to those 2 guys ....so start producing.

I know this is going to sound a bit far out there but...McDavid will never win any Cups if he keeps burning himself out to get great regular season stats...he is gassed by the time the playoffs come around and I think that applies to Marner and Matthews as well. Leave the record book for the regular season until AFTER you have won a Cup.

 

[francis246]

Matthews probably would have got a 15m x 7 offersheet from Arizona. It was nice of him to not go to rfa status and let that happen. He didn't hold out to get the money he did and there are historical precedents to his contract, unlike Money Mitch.

mitch was the leading scorer….

didn’t miss a game and scored 94 points while also leading the NHL in primary assists. That is a justified ask. I would have loved 9 or 9.5 but it’s the going rate for high end producers

 

[Sundinisagod]

mitch was the leading scorer….

Goals are valued more than assists.

Edit: and center over winger.

 

[francis246]

Goals are valued more than assists.

Possibly but he out produced Matthews by 20 points. So I don’t think he was wrong in saying he’s just as valuable to the team. If you don’t like him fine, but don’t try and undervalue what he did. He scored 94 points, that’s not easy. How many players can get close to 100 points in a season? Not many. It was an outstanding season for him.

 

[myleafs]

jack seems so full of shit I’m sorry. It’s a bit much and over done. Do you want Marner to go cry and apologize? I think Marner is just being himself, you can’t please everyone when it comes to media availability.

I don't get that Jack is full of shit at all. For me he comes across as quite humble and grateful and puts a lot of pressure on himself to perform all the while taking full responsibility for any poor play. I don't know him but his positive chilled vibe feels genuine to me.

 

[Apex Predator]

mitch was the leading scorer….

didn’t miss a game and scored 94 points while also leading the NHL in primary assists. That is a justified ask. I would have loved 9 or 9.5 but it’s the going rate for high end producers

wasn’t his contract year before all that?

Edit: nope I am wrong. Carry on lol

 

[Throw More Waffles]

LMAO it’s easy to accept something when you’ve already been to a cup final and won a cup. Like come on. There are many different variables that come into play. Not one negotiation is the same. You’re grasping at straws now. We will never know the full external pressure that caused Marner to ask for 11 mill. It’s already out there that his dad had something to do with it. I can’t confirm or deny that.

but I will never fault a player for going after as much as they can make. You only get one career. Either way the salary cap is the biggest joke ever. It punishes both players and teams. NHL should adapt the NBA. Include a luxury tax

I mean... if you're going to defend greed from the top 0.00001% richest elite... what more is there to say?

That extra money doesn't come out of mlse's pockets. It comes out of his much poorer teammates pockets. It's unbelievable that such greed is being defended.