Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[IPS]

In the 2011, 2012, and 2013 playoffs, Kane failed to produce a single point in the final game of 5 out of 6 series.
It didn't mean he was a bad playoff performer.

In 2014 vs LA he produced more in games 5-7 in that single series to erase a 3-1 deficit than Marner has produced in his entire career of game 5's-7's. LOVE how you just arbitrarily cut it off at 2013.

Didn't mean he was a bad playoff performer? no shit sherlock.

 

[ACC1224]

Nope ..

Great player bad contract as you and I and many know Mitch should currently be on his 8 year deal X $8.5 mil and just entering his UFA years this season with 4 more remaining, but Dubas turned that down,

While Marner is not to blame for his contract directly either, that him and his agent took advantage of a naive GM to their benefit, his contract still remains a problem.

With Marner expecting a raise on his next deal, the other option to fix this Leafs cap problem would be to trade him away possibly.

However if Treliving can keep his next contract $$/AAV pretty close to his current one, then we can keep that mistake contained to the past GM only. IMO

PS. With Nylander's asking price and only a NTC and not full NMC that makes Willy the more likely player dealt.

Crazy to think how the fortune of the team would have changed had Dubas just accepted the 8.5x8.
This was definitely Dubas’ Rask for Raycroft moment

 

[Captain Crunch]

In the 2011, 2012, and 2013 playoffs, Kane failed to produce a single point in the final game of 5 out of 6 series.
It didn't mean he was a bad playoff performer.

We haven't even had 8 game 1s since Boston in 2018, for the record. Not sure where you got your numbers.

In 2010 he scored the OT winner in the Cup winning game. In 2013 he won the Conn Smythe trophy. Not too shabby! Can’t wait to see Marner do this, that is, if it EVER DOES happen!

 

[Dekes For Days]

In 2014 vs LA he produced more in games 5-7 in that single series to erase a 3-1 deficit than Marner has produced in his entire career of game 5's-7's.
Didn't mean he was a bad playoff performer? no shit sherlock.

In 2010 he scored the OT winner in the Cup winning game. In 2013 he won the Conn Smythe trophy.

So it seems that these small sample statistical occurrences of production in specific games over some arbitrary stretch didn't really give a good representation of the quality of Kane, the quality of Kane in the playoffs (even those playoffs, considering he still won a Conn Smythe), or his ability to produce in those specific parts of series in future series.

 

[IPS]

So it seems that these small sample statistical occurrences over some arbitrary stretch didn't really give a good representation of the quality of Kane, the quality of Kane in the playoffs (even those playoffs, considering he still won a Conn Smythe), or his ability to produce in those specific parts of series in future series.

"Small sample statistical" - Kane's playoff resume is no short sample size
"Arbitrary stretch" Like you literally just did by cherry picking years Kane didn't do so hot and excluding 2014.

Gonna have to do better than that there big guy. Your game is way too easy to figure out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

"Small sample statistical" - Kane's playoff resume is no short sample size
"Arbitrary stretch" Like you literally just did by cherry picking years Kane didn't do so hot and excluding 2014.

Yes, I did purposefully pick an arbitrary stretch (which actually included the year Kane won the Cup and the Conn Smythe, for the record, so not just when he "didn't do so hot"), to match the arbitrary stretch that was being chosen for Marner. That's the whole point. These stretches and quirky statistical occurrences are arbitrary, and any player can go through them without it saying anything about the player, their overall performance in the playoffs, or which specific games they'll produce in in the future - even the very next year.

Picking out a handful of game Xs for a player early in his career is a short sample size. For all you know, Marner in 2024 is going to do what Kane in 2014 did against LA.

 

[Mess]

Crazy to think how the fortune of the team would have changed had Dubas just accepted the 8.5x8.
This was definitely Dubas’ Rask for Raycroft moment

He also had the opportunity at the same time to accept the Matthews bridge deal.

Marner on a 8 X $8.5 mil deal and Matthews signing his bridge deal 3 X $ 9 mil (@ his RFA rate).

Would Willy be asking for $10,5 mil now if Mitch was just 4 years into his $8.5 mil deal?

Treliving current offer of $8.8 - $9 mil slightly leapfrogging Mitch as opposed to trying and closing a +$4 mil gap would make re-signing so much easier.

With Mitch at $8.5 mil + Auston @ $9 mil = $17.5 combined and not current $22.5 mil, there would be no reason to deal a 1st to dump Marleau either as that difference would have allowed him to play out the last year of his deal.

If the Leafs had even a remotely competent GM things could have been so much better and different right now.

IF Mitch was on his current $8.5 X 8 deal that Marner appreciation thread would be bursting at the seams, with Marner on a long-term fair market contract and all of Leaf nation fans united behind his contribution to the team, without the bloated current contract not the biggest issue and distraction because of all the combined signing mistakes putting the Leafs into Cap Hell and what should have been Leafs best competitive window wasted by paying UFA prices for RFA years.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner on a 8 X $8.5 mil deal and Matthews signing his bridge deal 3 X $ 9 mil (@ his RFA rate).

Neither of those contracts existed as options. That's why you have zero evidence for the Marner claim, and all you have for the Matthews claim is a picture of a deleted tweet from a no-name twitter account misrepresenting a second-hand statement from somebody who also wouldn't know, a year after the claimed and obviously false occurrence would have happened, with zero corroboration from anybody at the time of the negotiation, when the tweet was made, or since.
Matthews on a bridge also would have screwed us, as he would have come due directly following his best MVP season, when the cap wasn't rising yet.

Would Willy be asking for $10,5 mil now if Mitch was just 4 years into his $8.5 mil deal?

Nylander's ask has nothing to do with what Marner makes.

With Mitch at $8.5 mil + Auston @ $9 mil = $17.5 combined and not current $22.5 mil, there would be no reason to deal a 1st to dump Marleau either as that difference would have allowed him to play out the last year of his deal.

There's always a reason to dump 6.25m allocated to dead cap/an on-ice liability in a competitive phase.
Underpaying our players on contract options that didn't exist wouldn't have changed that.

 

[ACC1224]

He also had the opportunity at the same time to accept the Matthews bridge deal.

View attachment 732331

Marner on a 8 X $8.5 mil deal and Matthews signing his bridge deal 3 X $ 9 mil (@ his RFA rate).

Would Willy be asking for $10,5 mil now if Mitch was just 4 years into his $8.5 mil deal?

Treliving current offer of $8.8 - $9 mil slightly leapfrogging Mitch as opposed to trying and closing a +$4 mil gap would make re-signing so much easier.

With Mitch at $8.5 mil + Auston @ $9 mil = $17.5 combined and not current $22.5 mil, there would be no reason to deal a 1st to dump Marleau either as that difference would have allowed him to play out the last year of his deal.

If the Leafs had even a remotely competent GM things could have been so much better and different right now.

IF Mitch was on his current $8.5 X 8 deal that Marner appreciation thread would be bursting at the seams, with Marner on a long-term fair market contract and all of Leaf nation fans united behind his contribution to the team, without the bloated current contract not the biggest issue and distraction because of all the combined signing mistakes putting the Leafs into Cap Hell and what should have been Leafs best competitive window wasted by paying UFA prices for RFA years.

I don’t know about Matthews but I do know that the Marner offer was a big miss. At that rate he would have the best contract in the league.

 

[freshwind]

I don’t know about Matthews but I do know that the Marner offer was a big miss. At that rate he would have the best contract in the league.

the time the alleged 8.5 deal is rumoured to have been offered (zero proof outside of message board banter) marner was a 69 point player and willie was a 61 point player.
folks balked at willie's supposed ask of 8.5 but now, with revisionist history behind them feel the need to blame dubas for not signing marner at that point to 8,5X8
not absolving dubas, but at least when criticizing be accurate and truthful

in my mind dubas' biggest mistake was not altering the philosophy in 2020/21 when the flat cap was projected for a number of years ... that is mistake #1 and I still have my wonder on how much involvement shanny had in all this

the marnerites look for any twist to justify his salary

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Crazy to think how the fortune of the team would have changed had Dubas just accepted the 8.5x8.
This was definitely Dubas’ Rask for Raycroft moment

Crazy is also putting him to play with a motivated JT in a contract year and then be surprised that he had a career year and wanted a lot more than that. Dubas really screwed the pooch on all the deals other than Willy...

 

[Notsince67]

Yes there was no data to "support that statement", nobody ever said there was so congrats on your strawman.

As far as your data goes, sample size renders it meaningless. You either
1 - understand that
2 - don't understand that
3 - would understand if your crush on Marner didn't turn your brain into mush whenever he's the topic of conversation

As far as educating you, it's not possible for me to educate someone who behaves like a grade 3 schoolyard bully - it's only possible to learn, if you are capable of listening. But like I said, you lose your mind when it comes to Marner, that's the real problem here. If it was any other player being discussed, you'd know perfectly well that your numbers are useless and you wouldn't dream of making such a ridiculous post.


That's Marner in a nutshell. Perhaps he's worth 11 million during the regular season, he sure as hell isn't in the playoffs though.

Look. No answer again. You offer zero like I said. Stop talking about subject matters you know nothing about. There wasn't even a strawman. You seem incapable of even looking up what logical falacies mean. Let me give you a tip...a straw man isn't a quaint vernacular. Reference Plato and get back when you are sufficiently equipped for an coherent exchange with people

 

[Gary Nylund]

Look. No answer again. You offer zero like I said. Stop talking about subject matters you know nothing about. There wasn't even a strawman. You seem incapable of even looking up what logical falacies mean. Let me give you a tip...a straw man isn't a quaint vernacular. Reference Plato and get back when you are sufficiently equipped for an coherent exchange with people

Yet another in a long line of arrogant nonsensical posts from you. A grade 3 level schoolyard bully babbling about Plato in a discussion about a hockey team. You're amusing, have a nice day.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marchand didn't have six PPG seasons. In fact, he had a grand total of zero PPG seasons.
Why don't you tell me why a player with a career high of 61 points and a career high pace of 65 points deserved 13.7+% of the cap in 2016?
Should be good for a laugh indeed.

2016-2017 - 80 games 85 points
2017-2018 - 68 games 85 points
2018-2019 - 79 games 100 points
2019-2020 - 70 games 87 points
2020-2021 - 53 games 69 points
2021-2022 - 70 games 80 points

Please let me know which of those wasn't a ppg season.

(I was right, you're good for a laugh!)

 

[Notsince67]

Yet another in a long line of arrogant nonsensical posts from you. A grade 3 level schoolyard bully babbling about Plato in a discussion about a hockey team. You're amusing, have a nice day.

You call me a bully yet you spend all your time trolling and picking fights. Only a real narcissist calls someone a bully when they get taken apart from a fight they started. Little self reflection is required there bud. I didn't even break a sweat.

 

[andora]

2016-2017 - 80 games 85 points
2017-2018 - 68 games 85 points
2018-2019 - 79 games 100 points
2019-2020 - 70 games 87 points
2020-2021 - 53 games 69 points
2021-2022 - 70 games 80 points

Please let me know which of those wasn't a ppg season.

(I was right, you're good for a laugh!)

Maybe it means Pass Per Goal

 

[thewave]

At this point who cares. Ownership is going for name recognition and branding. The Leafs are not a team set up for winning. Essentially you are watching them to see some skating and nifty goals. Attaching hope for a cup is almost laughable.

Maybe this year they can have a slight run but after they lose players for nothing or overpay and give NMC out. Its really over for a long while. 7-10 years to correct

 

[Arzak]

2016-2017 - 80 games 85 points
2017-2018 - 68 games 85 points
2018-2019 - 79 games 100 points
2019-2020 - 70 games 87 points
2020-2021 - 53 games 69 points
2021-2022 - 70 games 80 points

Please let me know which of those wasn't a ppg season.

(I was right, you're good for a laugh!)

To be fair I think that the point was he got non prior to 2016 and his contract signing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

2016-2017 - 80 games 85 points
2017-2018 - 68 games 85 points
2018-2019 - 79 games 100 points
2019-2020 - 70 games 87 points
2020-2021 - 53 games 69 points
2021-2022 - 70 games 80 points

Please let me know which of those wasn't a ppg season.

Marchand signed his contract in 2016. Please let me know which of these occurred prior to 2016.

 

[ACC1224]

the time the alleged 8.5 deal is rumoured to have been offered (zero proof outside of message board banter) marner was a 69 point player and willie was a 61 point player.
folks balked at willie's supposed ask of 8.5 but now, with revisionist history behind them feel the need to blame dubas for not signing marner at that point to 8,5X8
not absolving dubas, but at least when criticizing be accurate and truthful

in my mind dubas' biggest mistake was not altering the philosophy in 2020/21 when the flat cap was projected for a number of years ... that is mistake #1 and I still have my wonder on how much involvement shanny had in all this

the marnerites look for any twist to justify his salary

I am being truthful, he messed up.

 

[socko]

At this point who cares. Ownership is going for name recognition and branding. The Leafs are not a team set up for winning. Essentially you are watching them to see some skating and nifty goals. Attaching hope for a cup is almost laughable.

Maybe this year they can have a slight run but after they lose players for nothing or overpay and give NMC out. Its really over for a long while. 7-10 years to correct

I thought Dubas was going to leave nothing but ashes of this team, but then he went and got himself fired. And while the damage is immense, there are still some parts left to build from. It would take amazing work from Tre to pull-off a cup though. He would have to hit move after move out of the park.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marchand signed his contract in 2016. Please let me know which of these occurred prior to 2016.

Moving the posts again - good for you.

Did you have to wait for the other poster to provide you with a way out, or did you come up with that excuse on your own?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Moving the posts again - good for you.

Lol, what? My statement was "Neither Bergeron or Marchand were remotely close to 10m+ players when they signed their contracts."
I also had multiple other statements directly to you that made it clear that I was discussing when they signed and 2016.
Then you started and kept talking about PPG seasons after he signed his contract for some reason - to the point where even people other than me had to correct you.
This after you already came in with goaltenders and defensemen in response to me talking about forwards.
I'm not shifting any goalposts. You're just not reading what I'm saying.

 

[leafs in five]

Moving the posts again - good for you.

Did you have to wait for the other poster to provide you with a way out, or did you come up with that excuse on your own?

good god, man

 

[leafs in five]

At this point who cares. Ownership is going for name recognition and branding. The Leafs are not a team set up for winning. Essentially you are watching them to see some skating and nifty goals. Attaching hope for a cup is almost laughable.

Maybe this year they can have a slight run but after they lose players for nothing or overpay and give NMC out. Its really over for a long while. 7-10 years to correct

I am sick of all the skating this team does, enough already, maybe start trying to win a cup instead? just an idea