Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

Trade or Keep Marner?

  • Trade Marner

    Votes: 420 67.5%
  • Keep Marner

    Votes: 183 29.4%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 19 3.1%

  • Total voters
    622

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
11,602
9,750
Its not the player its his contract the main reason he would be traded.

Leafs have too many double digit contracts on their books and it impacts Cup competitiveness.

How many is too many? Keep in mind the talking point last year was that you can't win with even 1.

The winners this year had one, and a 9.5 million dollar contract.

The runners-up had 2 + 5 million in dead cap space + a 9.5 million dollar contract.
 
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notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
11,602
9,750
Holy smokes. I mean I knew this is what was happening, I just didn't realize the drop-off was that steep.

Games 5-6-7, 17 games, 7 assists and 1 goal. The opposite of clutch, hard to understand why so many seem to worship this guy.

It's weird how hard Marner gets critiqued for something like this when there are people who are considered great playoff performers who do terribly too.

I'd assume as the series go on, the checking gets tighter because people don't want to make a mistake.

Kucherov in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Kane in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 5A - 5P

Malkin in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 6A - 6P

Crosby in game 7's - 8GP - 2G - 4A - 6P

Ovechkin in game 7's - 12GP - 4G - 4A - 8P

Stamkos in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Point in game 7's - 3GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

A lot of these guys are considered big game players for some reason.

I agree he has to be better, but I don't think this is unique to just Marner, I think it just becomes harder to score in these games.
 
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Smif

Registered User
Jan 23, 2008
10,124
4,049
Hamilton
Its not the player its his contract the main reason he would be traded.

Leafs have too many double digit contracts on their books and it impacts Cup competitiveness.
That's not a reason to trade Marner, that's just reason to wait it out, let JT's contract expire and wait until the cap goes up and there are 2-3 10M+ guys on every team
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,376
11,467
the time the alleged 8.5 deal is rumoured to have been offered (zero proof outside of message board banter) marner was a 69 point player and willie was a 61 point player.
folks balked at willie's supposed ask of 8.5 but now, with revisionist history behind them feel the need to blame dubas for not signing marner at that point to 8,5X8
not absolving dubas, but at least when criticizing be accurate and truthful

in my mind dubas' biggest mistake was not altering the philosophy in 2020/21 when the flat cap was projected for a number of years ... that is mistake #1 and I still have my wonder on how much involvement shanny had in all this

the marnerites look for any twist to justify his salary
So here are the facts. Marners agent publicly said they had been lowballed. Not once did Dubas or TMSE make a claim that no offer went out. It's pretty obvious an offer was made so the question is how much. Furthermore it is insane that Marners camp did not ask for an amount.
So do you think it is remotely possible that Marner was seeking a lot higher than 8.5 and/or Dubas offered an amount larger than this number to which Marners camp turned down? It just doesn't make sense that this happened. No way were the numbers justifying 9s or 10s with the half year track record he had. Furthermore, it would have been on Marner and his agents mind that there was always a risk of injury. 8.5 would have been a sweet spot of a number for both sides. 9 or 9.5 would not have been called a lowball. 8 to 8.5 wouldn't have either.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
41,526
11,877
I thought Dubas was going to leave nothing but ashes of this team, but then he went and got himself fired. And while the damage is immense, there are still some parts left to build from. It would take amazing work from Tre to pull-off a cup though. He would have to hit move after move out of the park.

That's how I see it. He need W after W after W on the trade and contract negotiations front to put use there. The longshot is we catch lightning in a bottle this year and the tandem is fire between the pipes. It could happen I guess.

I am sick of all the skating this team does, enough already, maybe start trying to win a cup instead? just an idea

That's how I feel as well. I just want to see Leafs Cup in my lifetime.
 

Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
11,808
11,832
Leafs top picks next 3 drafts. Leafs don't have a 2nd round pick until 2027.

View attachment 732306

Leafs made the fewest picks of any team the past 3 season combined with 2 of the past 3 drafts making only 3 picks total.. So of a possible 21 picks 2021-2023 drafts Leafs made 11 picks just above 50% participation.

NHL.com just released its current prospect rankings per team and Leafs prospect pool is ranked #25 of 32 and near the bottom of the league.

View attachment 732314

The damage that Dubas did to the Leafs future is substantial and irreversible and the full effects still not felt on future years.

To offset the high cap prices of the Leafs Core 4 it would be your prospect pool and drafting that would do that. Because of the weak prospect pool the talk has switched to trade away some of those big contracts like Marner and Nylander because you can't build a competitive team around them while they use up 1/2 a teams salary cap.
Wow this really flies in the face of the poster that say Dubas left the team with a great prospect pool.
Further indication it’s going to take years to did out of the mess Dubas and Shanny made of what should have been a great tank and rebuild
 
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KPower

Registered User
Jan 17, 2012
9,382
4,390
It's weird how hard Marner gets critiqued for something like this when there are people who are considered great playoff performers who do terribly too.

I'd assume as the series go on, the checking gets tighter because people don't want to make a mistake.

Kucherov in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Kane in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 5A - 5P

Malkin in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 6A - 6P

Crosby in game 7's - 8GP - 2G - 4A - 6P

Ovechkin in game 7's - 12GP - 4G - 4A - 8P

Stamkos in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Point in game 7's - 3GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

A lot of these guys are considered big game players for some reason.

I agree he has to be better, but I don't think this is unique to just Marner, I think it just becomes harder to score in these games.
Justin Williams in game 7’s 9GP- 7G- 8A - 15 points. 8 wins- 1 loss

Mr game 7…crazy eh
 
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keonsbitterness

Registered User
Sep 14, 2010
36,279
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south of Steeles
Wow this really flies in the face of the poster that say Dubas left the team with a great prospect pool.
Further indication it’s going to take years to did out of the mess Dubas and Shanny made of what should have been a great tank and rebuild
Mess conveniently excluded 2020 when we drafted 12 players.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
21,133
15,877
Agreed but the part where our prospect pool is considered 25th out of 32 is alarming considering we have had almost zero playoff success.
NHL Network's rankings of anything are always laughably bad. They're not worth anything. They don't even have the KHL rookie of the year in our top 10 prospects lol.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,961
24,291
You call me a bully yet you spend all your time trolling and picking fights. Only a real narcissist calls someone a bully when they get taken apart from a fight they started. Little self reflection is required there bud. I didn't even break a sweat.
Yet another in a long line of your posts in Marner threads that's far removed from reality.

It's weird how hard Marner gets critiqued for something like this when there are people who are considered great playoff performers who do terribly too.

I'd assume as the series go on, the checking gets tighter because people don't want to make a mistake.

Kucherov in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Kane in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 5A - 5P

Malkin in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 6A - 6P

Crosby in game 7's - 8GP - 2G - 4A - 6P

Ovechkin in game 7's - 12GP - 4G - 4A - 8P

Stamkos in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Point in game 7's - 3GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

A lot of these guys are considered big game players for some reason.

I agree he has to be better, but I don't think this is unique to just Marner, I think it just becomes harder to score in these games.
It's not just game 7's with Marner. The general trend is that his production drops off when the playoffs start, and the longer the playoffs go, the more it drops off.

Wow this really flies in the face of the poster that say Dubas left the team with a great prospect pool.
Further indication it’s going to take years to did out of the mess Dubas and Shanny made of what should have been a great tank and rebuild
Someone actually said that? Yikes!
 

ULF_55

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,779
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Mountain Standard Ti
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It's weird how hard Marner gets critiqued for something like this when there are people who are considered great playoff performers who do terribly too.

I'd assume as the series go on, the checking gets tighter because people don't want to make a mistake.

Kucherov in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Kane in game 7's - 6GP - 0G - 5A - 5P

Malkin in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 6A - 6P

Crosby in game 7's - 8GP - 2G - 4A - 6P

Ovechkin in game 7's - 12GP - 4G - 4A - 8P

Stamkos in game 7's - 8GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

Point in game 7's - 3GP - 0G - 0A - 0P

A lot of these guys are considered big game players for some reason.

I agree he has to be better, but I don't think this is unique to just Marner, I think it just becomes harder to score in these games.

I know Kane has a Cup winning goal, and didn't Stamkos play like 2 shifts and score in a Cup winning game? I guess hard to score in game 7 if it ends in 6?

Wow ... the Kane was over a decade ago? Time just flies by doesn't it?
 

Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
2,379
1,699
We have two 1st round picks and three 3rd round picks, and an abundance of picks in later rounds, with all of our top prospects still in the system. Which is pretty good for a consistent top tier team, and more than what Dubas was able to find good pieces and improve our prospect pool with. If Treliving isn't able to draft as well as Dubas, the lack of 2nds could impact us a bit in the late 2020s and into the early 2030s, but it doesn't have much relevance to what internal options or depth we've had over the past 5 years or right now.

What people miss is that they largely have carried their play over to the playoffs - especially when healthy. The only thing that hasn't carried over to the playoffs as much is production in a select few series (two of which Matthews was injured in), but that's not a result of our players performing worse. It's a result of running into external situations in a few series that would and did decrease the production of anybody that runs into it. An individual forward is only part of the equation that determines production. We use it as a rough proxy for a forward's offensive quality because over a regular season or multiple regular seasons, many of the external factors smooth out and trend towards what is internally driven, but those external factors do not equalize in the playoffs, since we're talking about small samples against vastly different singular teams and goalies over a short period of time.

You can have two forwards of the exact same offensive quality give the exact same performance over a series, and end up with massively different raw production. It doesn't mean one was better than the other. It means that their situations were different.

Probably not as bad as most people think, but I don't know or care, because all playoff games matter. Playoff series in general tend to get lower scoring closer to the end of a series.

The players are not entitled. The fans are. And management didn't do anything to make anything any way. They just re-signed their top players to appropriate contracts like every other management team does with their players.

Nylander likely won't get 10m, but he has a good case for being worth a similar amount to somebody like Aho.
His ask has nothing to do with getting deserved criticism from Keefe. Nobody has been given special treatment relative to Nylander.
Nylander just has more moments to criticize and aspects of his play to improve from a coaching perspective than somebody like Matthews/Marner.
Keefe and Nylander have also spoken on the type of coaching style he prefers, which can differ from player to player.

No, because it never happened.

They're actually pretty easy to like when you don't arbitrarily refuse to like them for no reason. These are some of the best players this team will have in our lifetimes, homegrown no less, and they seem really committed to improving, and winning, and winning here. Not to mention the quality of them as individuals, and the amount they help the community.

That's not true, of course. They were not overpaid, and there was consideration for the team and what worked well for the team.

Primarily because a team being good enough to make the playoffs five seasons in a row, especially directly after being the worst team in the league with their core starting as teenagers, is really rare. And taking each series to the limit isn't a bad thing. Lots of teams and cores didn't win a cup by this point of their core's progression.
You're putting way too much emphasis on rounds, without the context of what actually happened, and what they actually faced.
Could not bold this part:

An individual forward is only part of the equation that determines production. We use it as a rough proxy for a forward's offensive quality because over a regular season or multiple regular seasons, many of the external factors smooth out and trend towards what is internally driven, but those external factors do not equalize in the playoffs, since we're talking about small samples against vastly different singular teams and goalies over a short period of time.

What are you trying to say??? To me, it sounds like you’re contradicting yourself. You say that Matthews and Marner “deserve” to be paid what they’re getting because of their enormous talent, which by the way has yet to carry on throughout a playoff run, as in it decreases by a fair amount the longer a series goes on. Yet up above it sounds like you’re saying that a player’s talent is only part of the equation. Can’t have it both ways, Dekes.

Yes, you’re right about our future draft picks. Having 5 out of 9 in the first 3 rounds isn’t bad.

Yes, all playoff games matter, but games 5-7 are even more crucial. The saying, you have to win 4 games to win a series, will always be true every time, but it sure has proven to be almost next to impossible for the Leafs to win that 4th game.

Not sure why you can’t see that they are entitled. How much would it take for either one of them to lay the blame for a loss squarely on their shoulders? How often have they ever said that their own effort needed to be better in games (and surely you’re not going to counter with that has never happened)? Isn’t that what leaders are supposed to do? They never do! So what do you call that?

You’re correct in saying that not every team and their core have won a Cup in their first 7 years, but they are in the bottom third of the league in terms of how long it has taken them to win one playoff round. You almost elevate these two to God status. If they’re that good, it shouldn’t have taken them this long to win one playoff round.

Slice the pie up any way you want to, you can only pay so many of your star players big money. If you have too many of them, would it not be more beneficial to your team to trade at least one of them so that you can allocate more money to other areas that need to be addressed? After all, even Pridham is no god, and these two have also proven not to be.
 

leafs in five

Registered User
Feb 4, 2007
5,169
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engelland
the solution to a prospect pool ranked 25th of 32 by NHL dot com or wherever is trading Mitch Marner for some picks or prospects who will almost certainly not be close to as good as Mitch Marner.
 
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andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,492
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Victoria
Outside of trying to rank the prospect pool.. which is stupid in my opinion i think we have a pretty standard or average prospect pool

What do we have with true nhl projection? Honest question - i would say knies and holmberg as our only true nhl projectionable at this point players

Knies has the ability to become an impact player and holmberg a safe player. Beyond that we have a group of players that are just standard prospects - not taking away the potential for someone to just keep elevating and become something

Is it a success that we have this while attenpting to contend for 5 years? I would like to have seen more depth at C and D positions in our pipeline.. it seems we have fallen into the winger trap so often
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,517
24,843
Richmond Hill, ON
Tell you why majority of our fans are hated by others.

It’s most likely the same 70%.

However this doesn’t reflect real life fans. Only on line fans.
I haven’t met one leaf fan that would trade Marner
Most would trade Nylander before Marner but I can understand why some fans would trade him due to his cap hit, the fact that we have been up against the cap since 2018 and his game has not translated in key playoff games.
 

Lemontree

Fire Dubas
Feb 12, 2018
1,407
1,563
Tell you why majority of our fans are hated by others.

It’s most likely the same 70%.

However this doesn’t reflect real life fans. Only on line fans.
I haven’t met one leaf fan that would trade Marner
If you haven't met one Leaf fan that would trade Mitch Marner than I don't know who you speak to. Fans of a team want the team to experience success and generally don't get completely wrapped up into individual players (unless you are a younger fan). If you could trade Mitch Marner and get back a solid #2 Center and a Top 4 (right shot) Dman, both of whom are in their mid 20s and under contract for multiple seasons at a combined cap hit of Marners, I would do that trade.
 

Craig Button

The C is for Coward - Brad Marchand 2024
Jul 28, 2015
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Leaf Nation Torontonistan
If you haven't met one Leaf fan that would trade Mitch Marner than I don't know who you speak to. Fans of a team want the team to experience success and generally don't get completely wrapped up into individual players (unless you are a younger fan). If you could trade Mitch Marner and get back a solid #2 Center and a Top 4 (right shot) Dman, both of whom are in their mid 20s and under contract for multiple seasons at a combined cap hit of Marners, I would do that trade.

Im I’m my early 40’s.
Live in downtown core have multiple properties in the Don Mills Area. Haven’t met one Leaf fan that would trade Mitch Marner.

Now as for your trade. Name this 2nd line Centre and top 4 Right hand D who are both in their mid 20’s and under contract and also play on the same Team to make this trade possible
 

Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
2,379
1,699
In the 2011, 2012, and 2013 playoffs, Kane failed to produce a single point in the final game of 5 out of 6 series.
It didn't mean he was a bad playoff performer.

We haven't even had 8 game 1s since Boston in 2018, for the record. Not sure where you got your numbers.

Actually, if you go back to the start of the 2017 playoffs, there have been 8.
 

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