Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[socko]

Tkachuk would be a safer trade than Eichel, albeit one with a higher floor and a lower ceiling. I would be onboard with it. Just get someone young and proven. Preferably a forward that can score goals in the playoffs. We need way more goal scoring in the playoffs, not defense.

 

[Stephen]

The problem is not Marner. The problem is the team. It's not built for the playoffs and it's cap is poorly distributed. I posted this in a Kane vs Marner thread.

TLDR;
Great players often don't do so well on bad teams particularly in the playoffs. And YES, this is a bad team because playoff hockey is significantly different.


In their first 5 seasons here are the numbers:

Season		Age		Goals		Assists		Points
Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane
2016-17	2007-08	19	19	0.25	0.26	0.55	0.62	0.79	0.88
2017-18	2008-09	20	20	0.27	0.31	0.57	0.56	0.84	0.88
2018-19	2009-10	21	21	0.32	0.37	0.83	0.71	1.15	1.07
2019-20	2010-11	22	22	0.27	0.37	0.86	0.63	1.14	1.00
2020-21	2011-12	23	23	0.36	0.28	0.85	0.52	1.22	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There should be some GP'ed asterisks but those are the numbers.

In playoff seasons where their team played at most 9 games.

	GP	G	A	P
Marner	32	5	20	25
Kane	33	5	23	28

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yes. these are Kanes worst 5 years in the playoffs but they are also Marners worst and just because their team didn't do well it's probably not entirely their fault. This is how they performed on bad teams in the playoffs.

This would be a convincing argument if $700K man Jason Spezza outscored Marner by a wide margin and Alex Galchenyuk was more impactful.

 

[killer1980]

The handwriting was on the wall for Marner (and Dubas too for that matter) with those lingering contract negotiations. He alienated a lot of people including me. He had better have been a stellar playoff performer which he ain't. Now, for those who tout regular season stats, enjoy the regular season that don't mean squat to me. Dump his ass. He'll never be worth what he's getting paid. Find another incompetent fool who'll give him $4.5 million more than what he's worth.

And all of those who are upset that now he's on the golf course, don't worry, it'll take him more than 17 putts to put it in the hole.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Imagine telling this to Trotz or Torts, he wouldn't be on the PP.

Also does Keefe not have a pair or something?

Marner can go now.

But this is what the fans and players all asked for.... a not tough coach. Well you got one and now the players are apparently calling the shots.

Now you think a coach like Trotz or Torts (or Babs) is what these players need? oh boy.

 

[WTFMAN99]

But this is what the fans and players all asked for.... a not tough coach. Well you got one and now the players are apparently calling the shots.

Now you think a coach like Trotz or Torts (or Babs) is what these players need? oh boy.

You can be tough without being a dick.

Torts is nuclear.

Trotz would be the best but he's not available.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm not sure if it's the right play, but Mitch Marner should be traded this summer, if for no other reason then to send a message to the core group that their performance was unacceptable and won't be tolerated.

I'd seriously consider firing Keefe as well. 2 years in a row the team was just flat and played their worst game of the series in game 7/5

Sending that message is important IMO. Could consider the value of sending that message as part of the return IMO.

Marner and Keefe are at the top of my list as well. Boudreau is the guy I'd love to have and while I'd love to get Eichel or Jones back for Marner, I might be happy to just take what I can get at this point as the idea of beginning next season with him still in the fold is not a pleasant thought.

I wonder what @diceman934 thinks? Haven't seen him post lately but he was Marner's biggest fan, would be interesting to know if he still thinks Marner is a franchise player or if he's soured on him by now.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Folks I know many of you don't get it but Mitch is trying his darndest .. he does well in regular season hockey with his creativity and edges as there is much more time and space on ice for his offensive strategies to work .. in playoff hockey things ramp up speed wise 10%+ and no one gets out of position .. Mitch does not have an extra gear .. never ever had it ever even as a kid .. and he is not strong again never was as a kid either .. so he can't create seperation from opposing player with speed or strength so his offensive skills never get a chance to work .. he may occasionally capitalize on an opponent's mistake but he can't create on his own in playoffs .. so many of you are upset with him because you think he does not care but it is exact opposite situation here .. da kid has been beat up his entire life in hockey and I am not going to get into it further .. he actually is a great kid and it really hurts him emotionally but he can't say it because it was beat out of him from an early age .. he knows what his issues are .. I have told Paul what they are many times as a kid .. but he refused to understand .. it is very unlikely Mitch will improve his stride length or get more strength .. but good on him for getting his $$$ as it is super hard to get folks .. Mitch could be a nice secondary piece (like a 6th/7th guy) on a playoff team which has a top flight tender, 2 top flight centres, 2 stud Dmen and a hard driving winger but unfortunately as I have mentioned many times earlier Dubie way overpaid him based on regular season stats (which is easy to do) but he lacks experience to understand what da true skill weaknesses are

 

[Once]

Not really a Marner fan. There is absolutely no way to justify this contract at this point, even if he is a 'top 5' player in the regular season.

But who takes this contract in today's limited cap world?? We are handcuffed. Because of this, I think we saw the last of Nylander. No one is taking that Marner contract for anything worth coming the other way but teams will pay up for Willy.

 

[KinMan]

I bet Paul Marner is feeling the heat from all the roasting of his boy and preparing a trade request as to "reject them before they reject us"

 

[TMLAM34]

Tkachuk would be a safer trade than Eichel, albeit one with a higher floor and a lower ceiling. I would be onboard with it. Just get someone young and proven. Preferably a forward that can score goals in the playoffs. We need way more goal scoring in the playoffs, not defense.

If Eichel’s neck injury isn’t serious, then yes a Marner for Eichel trade would be nice. Otherwise I’d try and trade Marner for Tkachuk and a 2nd.

 

[ER89]

By the way, what the hell is Zack "Hands" Hyman doing playing on my sons top line?

Hey I agree with that - wait can't you just ask your kid to speak to sheldon?

 

[Blackjackz]

That argument has been made for the last 3 seasons and MM has yet to stop laying eggs in the PO´s. He´s had more than enough time to polish his game up to a point where he is an asset and not a hinderance. He has failed to do so.

I highly doubt the cap is going up in the near future. I´d be surprised if it took less than 3 seasons.
Wethere the cap goes up next season or in 5 seasons, MM´s ROI is abysmal.
We´ve already payed 31M of his contract, which is just shy of half the money he is owed. The AAV remains the same, but for any team wanting him, the real money cost is a lot more palatable. 9.6M next year and 7.25M the 3 remaining years.
Ship him to the Gulag and recoup as much as we can.

I would agree regarding Cap limit, but we will see.. with regards to MM cap hit, it is just shy of $11M. That being the case;
1) Who has the cap room?
2) What are they willing to part with (on top of taking on the contract)?
3) Does this improve the Leafs? (either talent wise or cap flexibility)

I don't see a lot of teams able/willing to take on an $11M cap hit, one that has a Full NMC built into last 2 years of the contract. The NMC is important because it gives less and less flexibility as the term of the contract becomes more and more attractive. A team taking on Marner's contract loses leverage if they should try and recoup in the last 2 years. Mitch is a very good hockey player, but you don't build winning franchises in the NHL by overpaying for talent. Make no mistake, Marner is good but he is NOT a generational player, although he is being paid as one. There are levels in this game, and MM is not in the very top tier of players in this league, he is a complimentary piece.

 

[666]

So your going to use Kane's number during the first half of the 2010s decade to justify Marner's lack of production? Mind you this was a time before the goalie equipment change was implemented and when only ~3-6 players per year reach PPG after the season is over compare to the 20+ player in todays modern era. If we have to back to an era when Jamie Benn won the Art Ross with just 87 points to make Marner's numbers look more acceptable then clearly something here is severely lacking.

No it makes far more sense to compare Marner's numbers with his peers today and the points they are putting up today, not from the time when only prime Crosby and prime Malkin had a chance to break the 90 point barrier. Guys like Aho, Rantanen, Point, Mark Stone and Guentzel (great overall numbers but he did struggle in this playoffs), this are players whom outside of Rantanen, Marner would usually significantly out score during the regular season but come playoff time, while these players would usually maintain their high level of play of the regular season, Marner on the other hand would revert back to the nervous ~19 year old kid he was during his rookie year.

Rantanen, Point and Stone play on great playoff teams. Aho and Guentzel play on arguably better playoff teams than the Leafs. You are making my point for me. Do you really think things would be much different if any of these guys replaced Marner? Do you think that Marner on those great playoff teams would play poorly? It's the team. We have Zack "Hands" Hyman on the top line. Foligo, Thornton and Simmonds are sometimes on the PP etc etc. While we're at it our PP was horrible and could have made the difference in this series at least. Is it ONLY Marners fault that our PP sucks?

 

[Trapper]

Sending that message is important IMO. Could consider the value of sending that message as part of the return IMO.

Marner and Keefe are at the top of my list as well. Boudreau is the guy I'd love to have and while I'd love to get Eichel or Jones back for Marner, I might be happy to just take what I can get at this point as the idea of beginning next season with him still in the fold is not a pleasant thought.

I wonder what @diceman934 thinks? Haven't seen him post lately but he was Marner's biggest fan, would be interesting to know if he still thinks Marner is a franchise player or if he's soured on him by now.

Sending a message only works if you have established who is in charge.

 

[Jozay]

If thats true he refused to move spots on the PP...wow.

 

[Woodman19]

I love how many people know who is and isn't a leader on the team and other behind closed doors workings on players work ethic. Re: Matthews, Tavarez, Marner, Nylander. Fact is y'all don't know shit and are just emotionally assigning blame to what you dont like.

 

[Menzinger]

This would be a convincing argument if $700K man Jason Spezza outscored Marner by a wide margin and Alex Galchenyuk was more impactful.

Kerfoot as well

 

[Subway Schenn]

The team should always be bigger than one player, however you have to pay attention to the fact that Auston and Mitch are best buds and trading Mitch probably decreases the chances of Auston re-signing with us when the time comes....

If the rumours about the PP setup are true, oh man.....

 

[Strangle]

Big brain move is convince them no number is what real fans do and then you won’t need to buy new jersey’s when they get a new favourite player

My jerseys are all no number.

The only player on the team older than me is Thornton. I have a problem putting a kid’s name on my back. It has no appeal to me, as a grown up

 

[81Leafs50]

TRADE MITCH! for Whatever

 

[Woodman19]

If thats true he refused to move spots on the PP...wow.

If its true, its on the coaches. If a player doesnt do what hes told, you don't play him. If he wont move spots on the PP then he gets no PP time, simple solution. Coaches manage players play.

 

[666]

Hey I agree with that - wait can't you just ask your kid to speak to sheldon?

I was just discussing that with Mrs Marner last night. Why the f does a third liner (at best) get to play his entire career so far with superstars? We came to the conclusion that Mitchy and Austin (that's what we call him when he comes over for dinner) must like him on their line for some reason. We don't get it either. We should really talk to him about it but we want him to buy us a house.

 

[TMLAM34]

The team should always be bigger than one player, however you have to pay attention to the fact that Auston and Mitch are best buds and trading Mitch probably decreases the chances of Auston re-signing with us when the time comes....

That’s why you trade Marner for Tkachuk, someone Matthews grew up with and fits exactly what this team really needs.

 

[socko]

Sending a message only works if you have established who is in charge.

And that's why the message hasn't been sent. It would have started with the Nylander contract situation if management was in charge, they're not.

 

[Strangle]

The team should always be bigger than one player, however you have to pay attention to the fact that Auston and Mitch are best buds and trading Mitch probably decreases the chances of Auston re-signing with us when the time comes....

This shouldn’t be a consideration at all. Personal relationships have nothing to do with professionalism. And if a player lets that affect them, they aren’t professionals and we don’t need them