Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[Leafs87]

Campbell finished the series with a better save percentage than Carey Price. And we still lost.

Save percentage is great. However he let some pretty weak goals starting game 5 along with the team quitting.

 

[Brobust]

Remember when Marner was willing to block shots with his face. What happened?

 

[WTFMAN99]

Remember when Marner was willing to block shots with his face. What happened?

He got paid.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

The problem is not Marner. The problem is the team. It's not built for the playoffs

I am tired of hearing this lazy take. Are the Habs built for the playoffs? Were the Jackets? They managed some fluky wins against chokers, big whoop.

And how is Marner not part of the problem? Is he not on the damn ice at least a third of the game? Is his choking somehow Matthews' or Hyman's or Nylander's fault?

 

[17 Clark]

Remember when Marner was willing to block shots with his face. What happened?

Did you daydream this It’s laughable it’s almost like saying Nelander. Is going to the into corners The only way this team will ever win if they take contact out of the league then the prima donnas won’t get hit and they might actually try

 

[dubplatepressure]

Save percentage is great. However he let some pretty weak goals starting game 5 along with the team quitting.

You aren't wrong - he did let in a few that he should have had. But we weren't scoring, and that's the reason why we lost.

 

[Stephen]

Old thread is full, and Leafs season is done, so we can use this new thread to continue the conversation.

Mess, I’m responding to our inmates running the asylum banter in the Keefe thread, but some real hard questions will probably have to be asked how much of the terrible Matthews Marner line and ice time was a result of placating to internal demands of the players? All good when you’re winning and scoring. Not as much when you can’t deliver.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Mess, I’m responding to our inmates running the asylum banter in the Keefe thread, but some real hard questions will probably have to be asked how much of the terrible Matthews Marner line and ice time was a result of placating to internal demands of the players? All good when you’re winning and scoring. Not as much when you can’t deliver.

I have no idea why he never broke them up. He barely replaced Hyman on that line for 88.

You can make a case for Shanahan and Dubas to be fired - results oriented business
You can make a case for Keefe to be fired - no spine
You can make a case for a lot of the players to be traded or let go - history of failure

 

[Leafs87]

You aren't wrong - he did let in a few that he should have had. But we weren't scoring, and that's the reason why we lost.

Like I said. The whole team is to blame. Of course Marner should feel the heat making the money he is. Matthews at least showed up physically. However the whole team gave up and played like hot garbage as a whole. I could care less that some players showed up some games. As an overall effort it wasn’t there

 

[petah]

Honour, Pride, Courage imprinted on the inner collar of the jersey. Obviously Mitch is to wearing the same jersey being sold at the store, he demonstrated none of those qualities.

 

[1specter]

I don’t disagree.
Why sell him at an all time low? Who would take him knowing he’s owed 17 mill?

If we trade him, we have to ensure we get better as we’re a competitive team. I don’t think we would get better while losing Marner. Teams won’t exactly pay full value and I dunno how many owners would even sign off on a Marner trade knowing the money owed to him.

I am not happy at all. I think he’s over paid, just like Tavares was a stupid signing and the team is overall very weak minded and physically weak.

This mess has been made and the course has been set

He's not at an all time low, he finished top 5-10 in scoring in the league. Also, once we pay his signing bonus this summer, he's only owed 6.2M in real dollars / yr going forward for the rest of his deal.

The fact is this kid brings the most drama to this team and the culture won't change until he's gone. This is a move that needs to happen for accountability.

 

[Srsly]

Save percentage is great. However he let some pretty weak goals starting game 5 along with the team quitting.

The five hole goal in game seven was a joke. But with that said, I think he was fine for what he is. This was his first playoff series and he made some key saves and kept us in the game.

The reality is that Toronto just needed to score more and without JT our depth issues were even more evident.

I really think Marner and Matthews needed to be separated. I’m not going to pile on the Mitch hate train like a lot of folks but Montreal was effective because all they really needed to do with shut down one line and Nylander. Nylanders revolving supporting cast was a joke and the aging veterans on our third and fourth lines weren’t what they used to be.

Honestly though, Marner wasn’t that bad. He was disappointing from an offensive perspective but he had some chances and was a big part of our PK early on.

He was better than Matthews to be honest. He set up quite a few beauties that Austin just couldn’t finish.

 

[Menzinger]

that's from Toronto Maple Leafs News, Opinion & Analysis | MLHS

I just came across that and my jaw dropped. Tulloch, the author isn't some rumor monger either, he's written for legit media publications too.

If Marner is back next season (and there s a high probability of that) things will need to change

 

[Gallagbi]

Seeing as we've already seen it... Yes.

We saw it as the happy go lucky second or third liner. Not the $11M underperformer.

Personally I think Mitch has put pressure on himself that he can't handle and it's hurt him from the moment he signed that deal. He wanted to be the big fish, felt he earned it, but didn't understand that comes with expectations which have simply crushed him

 

[Leafs87]

The five hole goal in game seven was a joke. But with that said, I think he was fine for what he is. This was his first playoff series and he made some key saves and kept us in the game.

The reality is that Toronto just needed to score more and without JT our depth issues were even more evident.

I really think Marner and Matthews needed to be separated. I’m not going to pile on the Mitch hate train like a lot of folks but Montreal was effective because all they really needed to do with shut down one line and Nylander. Nylanders revolving supporting cast was a joke and the aging veterans on our third and fourth lines weren’t what they used to be.

Honestly though, Marner wasn’t that bad. He was disappointing from an offensive perspective but he had some chances and was a big part of our PK early on.

Agreed.
Take away the Matthews line which played like shit, and willy, this forward group was a lottery level team. Both on ice and on paper IMO. Losing Tavares stung and since he made up 11 mill we had awful depth

 

[Peasy]

The problem is not Marner. The problem is the team. It's not built for the playoffs and it's cap is poorly distributed. I posted this in a Kane vs Marner thread.

TLDR;
Great players often don't do so well on bad teams particularly in the playoffs. And YES, this is a bad team because playoff hockey is significantly different.


In their first 5 seasons here are the numbers:

Season		Age		Goals		Assists		Points
Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane	Marner	Kane
2016-17	2007-08	19	19	0.25	0.26	0.55	0.62	0.79	0.88
2017-18	2008-09	20	20	0.27	0.31	0.57	0.56	0.84	0.88
2018-19	2009-10	21	21	0.32	0.37	0.83	0.71	1.15	1.07
2019-20	2010-11	22	22	0.27	0.37	0.86	0.63	1.14	1.00
2020-21	2011-12	23	23	0.36	0.28	0.85	0.52	1.22	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There should be some GP'ed asterisks but those are the numbers.

In playoff seasons where their team played at most 9 games.

	GP	G	A	P
Marner	32	5	20	25
Kane	33	5	23	28

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yes. these are Kanes worst 5 years in the playoffs but they are also Marners worst and just because their team didn't do well it's probably not entirely their fault. This is how they performed on bad teams in the playoffs.

That statement is a little bit of an oxymoron isnt it?

"Marner is not the problem...the cap is poorly distributed."

And how would you suggest to build this team for the playoffs? All we heard was how this team lacks grit, it lacks leadership, the defence is terrible etc. Dubas goes and addresses these concerns and the results are still the same, with the same over paid players UNDER producing compared to their peers. But yes, please tell me how Marner is not part of the problem for this playoff loss.

 

[Not My Tempo]

that's from Toronto Maple Leafs News, Opinion & Analysis | MLHS

Matthews: injures wrist and is willing to play the bumper or net front.

Nylander: is willing to play on PP2, and net front

Tavares: is willing to play on PP2, and will play bumper or net front

The fact that Marner was unwilling to move from his position is downright funny. Did we let him handle the zone entries too instead of Nylander to appease him there as well?

 

[666]

I am tired of hearing this lazy take. Are the Habs built for the playoffs? Were the Jackets? They managed some fluky wins against chokers, big whoop.

And how is Marner not part of the problem? Is he not on the damn ice at least a third of the game? Is his choking somehow Matthews' or Hyman's or Nylander's fault?

The Habs are a bad team too but they have Weber and Price. Is Marner partially responsible, of course but so are the rest of them. Put it this way. If you trade Marner for another $11M forward, let's say someone like Panarin, and keep the rest the same, do you really think things would be much different? Of course not. This team needs a prime Hedman and a great goalie before they will be good and we don't have the cap because we gave it to Tavares.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I have no idea why he never broke them up. He barely replaced Hyman on that line for 88.

You can make a case for Shanahan and Dubas to be fired - results oriented business
You can make a case for Keefe to be fired - no spine
You can make a case for a lot of the players to be traded or let go - history of failure

The biggest mistake the organization made was handing out retirement contracts to young kids who haven't actually accomplished anything. That's 100% on Kyle Dubas. Dubas then hired Keefe who is unable or unwilling to make necessary lineup changes to win key matchups in a playoff series.

Dubas should probably be fired. If he isn't fired then he needs to fix the mess he created by making big trades starting with trading Marner and/or Matthews to free cap space.

This team still needs help on Defense and they need a 1B goaltender.

From the forwards they need more passion. It's that simple. They aren't getting it from Marner or Matthews so it's time for them to move on.

Keefe who looks more and more like a stooge for Dubas should also be replaced.

 

[Leafs87]

He's not at an all time low, he finished top 5-10 in scoring in the league. Also, once we pay his signing bonus this summer, he's only owed 6.2M in real dollars / yr going forward for the rest of his deal.

The fact is this kid brings the most drama to this team and the culture won't change until he's gone. This is a move that needs to happen for accountability.

Reason we’re looking to trade him isn’t the regular season….

 

[hockeynorth]

Backs up what Siegel said about the PP a couple of days ago.

Nylander does whatever is best for the team.

Marner does whatever is best for his ego.

What did Siegel say? I missed it

 

[ER89]

The five hole goal in game seven was a joke. But with that said, I think he was fine for what he is. This was his first playoff series and he made some key saves and kept us in the game.

The reality is that Toronto just needed to score more and without JT our depth issues were even more evident.

I really think Marner and Matthews needed to be separated. I’m not going to pile on the Mitch hate train like a lot of folks but Montreal was effective because all they really needed to do with shut down one line and Nylander. Nylanders revolving supporting cast was a joke and the aging veterans on our third and fourth lines weren’t what they used to be.

Honestly though, Marner wasn’t that bad. He was disappointing from an offensive perspective but he had some chances and was a big part of our PK early on.

He was better than Matthews to be honest. He set up quite a few beauties that Austin just couldn’t finish.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Mess]

Money and greed breed complacency.
&
Complacency breeds failure.
&
Most important complacency eventually breeds contempt.

Mitch Marner has successfully achieved complacency, demonstrated failure on both a personal and team level, and now brought on contempt all of which is of his own doing.

Or as famous basketball coach and executive Pat Riley would put it best .

​

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just came across that and my jaw dropped. Tulloch, the author isn't some rumor monger either, he's written for legit media publications too.

If Marner is back next season (and there s a high probability of that) things will need to change

If his attitude is really that bad and his sense of entitlement is really that strong it probably makes more sense to trade him than to hope he'll change.

 

[1specter]

Reason we’re looking to trade him isn’t the regular season….

Of course. But I don't think that's enough to drop his value just yet, he's still an insanely talented player who has had stellar production, and he's only 24. Another team devoid of talent up front will take a chance on him.