Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[socko]

The first thing Dubas needs to learn is detachment.
It’s great to make a safe work environment and give people every chance to succeed and support.
However, never put an individual above the team, make promises or become so emotionally attached that you can’t move players when necessary.

You also can’t give forever chances when trying to win and keep rolling the same thing that loses.

Dubas clearly isn't going to learn detachment. Your move Leafs... Looks like the Leafs are folding.

 

[seventieslord]

I feel like I'll probably just watch less. With every playoff failure it becomes more clear how irrelevant regular season games are. Generally I feel like the playoffs helps me know what to expect in the playoffs, now I know it doesn't matter. No matter how good they look during the season, in the playoffs they sometimes look great but at other times they look uninterested and in the end they lose. And no I don't GAF about the Rocket or any other individual trophies, all I care about is team success.

I'm going to be watching less for sure, unless there are major offseason changes. I'm also not having company over for a round 1 game until they've won a round.

 

[seventieslord]

There's not a single player in the league that it is "ridiculous" to move. You do it if it will help your team win a Stanley Cup, full stop. There's a great case to be made that the Leafs are too top-heavy and could benefit from moving one of the big four. Given his salary and his recent playoff performances, Marner is the prime candidate. The perfect trade is right there for the taking - Seth Jones. This is far from ridiculous, Dubas.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Dubas clearly isn't going to learn detachment. Your move Leafs... Looks like the Leafs are folding.

It's obvious this management group is fully committed to the M&M combo. That means only Tannenbaum can force change at this point.

Lets hope he's listening.

 

[hamzarocks]

There's not a single player in the league that it is "ridiculous" to move. You do it if it will help your team win a Stanley Cup, full stop. There's a great case to be made that the Leafs are too top-heavy and could benefit from moving one of the big four. Given his salary and his recent playoff performances, Marner is the prime candidate. The perfect trade is right there for the taking - Seth Jones. This is far from ridiculous, Dubas.

Marner for Seth Jones + Eric Robinson is a fair deal.

We offer Jones 7.5M-8M by 8 years to stay long-term which sets an internal cap on Rielly with him being 6.5M-7M

Dubas needs to realize Marner (and the other big RFAs) didn't give a damn about the team, the fans, nor him when they were negotiating. They all did what was best for them. Dubas has to put aside his personal feelings and realize these guys who he considers friends won't be saving him once he gets fired. They won't stick their neck out for him.

Marner is the easiest to move at the moment and we need a big core shakeup. 5 years of failure is to many and it's time that our management starts acting like professionals and make moves that help us become a better team.

We saw in the past 3 years, that 1) Elite star offensive talent is overrated when it does not work harder in the playoffs and isn't able to contribute as expected, and 2) That we have some very overrated perceptions on the offensive capability of guys like Marner, Matthews, JT (was bad in 2019 and 2020) and Nylander (was terrible in 2019, alright in 2020 and great in 2021).

Fix the core and the team fixes itself. Teams like the islanders, habs, 2012-2017 rangers all didn't/don't need so many high skilled offensive talent to win series and have deep playoff runs

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm going to be watching less for sure, unless there are major offseason changes. I'm also not having company over for a round 1 game until they've won a round.

Yeah I'm not going to say I'm done with this team or whatever, I've been fan so long that I doubt I could ever do that. I suspect there will just be many more games where maybe I have the game on in the background while I'm doing something else, we'll see.

 

[mikemar1]

I think they have to look at shredding some cap.

 

[danron1376]

the problem with moving marner at this point is that his value is probably lower than we want it to be given everything that has happened in the playoffs, people pointing out his goalless drought in the playoffs etc. We would probably have to add pieces to get a decent return.

 

[Dreakmur]

There's not a single player in the league that it is "ridiculous" to move. You do it if it will help your team win a Stanley Cup, full stop. There's a great case to be made that the Leafs are too top-heavy and could benefit from moving one of the big four. Given his salary and his recent playoff performances, Marner is the prime candidate. The perfect trade is right there for the taking - Seth Jones. This is far from ridiculous, Dubas.

Marner and Holl for Jones and Jenner would be pretty sweet!

 

[Mickey Marner]

There's not a single player in the league that it is "ridiculous" to move. You do it if it will help your team win a Stanley Cup, full stop. There's a great case to be made that the Leafs are too top-heavy and could benefit from moving one of the big four. Given his salary and his recent playoff performances, Marner is the prime candidate. The perfect trade is right there for the taking - Seth Jones. This is far from ridiculous, Dubas.

Exactly. The goal is for the Leafs to have the best team, not the team the Leafs already have to be the best. Our management is likely emotionally compromised and unwilling to part with "their" team for irrational reasons. They want to win their way with their guys, they don't want to win in general.

 

[IPS]

They all did what was best for them. Dubas has to put aside his personal feelings and realize these guys who he considers friends won't be saving him once he gets fired. They won't stick their neck out for him.

Quite the opposite actually.

They could easily pay the favor back to Dubas by actually doing what it takes in the playoffs and sacrificing the body to win a series. They won't do it. Not for Dubas or the fans - the people responsible for their salaries.

I don't know how or why Dubas keeps trying to shield them from criticism. These guys don't give a f*** about him.

These guys knew right from year 1 with that series against the Capitals how intense and violent the playoffs are. Good GM's will make their stars accept that and embrace it before they get their massive payday. Dubas went ahead and paid them championship money for accomplishing literally nothing. These kids are probably thinking how little damage to their bodies they can get away with to enjoy their $$$'s at the end of their careers.

 

[glue]

Excellent Article I think on Marner..weighing the Pros and Cons of trading him - https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021...arner-weighing-the-arguments-for-and-against/

 

[Egghead1999]

Marner for Seth Jones + Eric Robinson is a fair deal.

We offer Jones 7.5M-8M by 8 years to stay long-term which sets an internal cap on Rielly with him being 6.5M-7M

Dubas needs to realize Marner (and the other big RFAs) didn't give a damn about the team, the fans, nor him when they were negotiating. They all did what was best for them. Dubas has to put aside his personal feelings and realize these guys who he considers friends won't be saving him once he gets fired. They won't stick their neck out for him.

Marner is the easiest to move at the moment and we need a big core shakeup. 5 years of failure is to many and it's time that our management starts acting like professionals and make moves that help us become a better team.

We saw in the past 3 years, that 1) Elite star offensive talent is overrated when it does not work harder in the playoffs and isn't able to contribute as expected, and 2) That we have some very overrated perceptions on the offensive capability of guys like Marner, Matthews, JT (was bad in 2019 and 2020) and Nylander (was terrible in 2019, alright in 2020 and great in 2021).

Fix the core and the team fixes itself. Teams like the islanders, habs, 2012-2017 rangers all didn't/don't need so many high skilled offensive talent to win series and have deep playoff runs

No way, leafs will trade for an unsigned Seth Jones. cbj should sign him first.

 

[Stephen]

the problem with moving marner at this point is that his value is probably lower than we want it to be given everything that has happened in the playoffs, people pointing out his goalless drought in the playoffs etc. We would probably have to add pieces to get a decent return.

Not really. There are a lot of teams in the NHL that could use a top 5 scorer in the league and their team goals and challenges are different than the Leafs. And conversely they would have guys who could fit better for us.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

the problem with moving marner at this point is that his value is probably lower than we want it to be given everything that has happened in the playoffs, people pointing out his goalless drought in the playoffs etc. We would probably have to add pieces to get a decent return.

Doubt it, they won't get a great return but they don't have to add. The best thing they can get is cap space to actually fix this mess of a roster structure. Addition by subtraction at this point and the sooner they do it the better imo (hopefully right after the expansion draft).

Kessel didn't get a fair return either but it's a band-aid that needs to be ripped off.

 

[unitedstars87]

Tkachuk has half the skill and half the brain of Marner.

Right.. like passing to the opposing team in game 7

 

[KPower]

In 30 years of watching hockey I’ve never seen a player more scared than Mitch Marner in the playoffs.

Time to move on from him.

 

[Stephen]

Tkachuk has half the skill and half the brain of Marner.

I'm not sure B. Tkachuk would be the ideal return for Marner but if you think Tkachuk will cost $6-7 million on a long term deal and factor in what you can do with the addition $3-4 million, it's not actually that bad.

You'd be looking at a straight up skills and regular season points downgrade for sure, but you would be getting 18-19 minutes of Tkachuk, another 15 minutes of a $3-4 million player in a middle six role for just under 40 minutes of play time per game as opposed to Marner playing 22.5 minutes.

You'd have to study that further in terms of minutes played, regular/post season points and a bunch of other factors.

 

[frizzer1]

There is no way they can trade Marner for a defenceman .
The idea that they have a high powered offence is a myth.
After the top 4 they have little offensive talent.
And in my opinion, Tavares is a grunt with good hands around the net.
So for me, only eichel would be a fair return, if he’s healthy if course.

 

[Brobust]

I'm not sure B. Tkachuk would be the ideal return for Marner but if you think Tkachuk will cost $6-7 million on a long term deal and factor in what you can do with the addition $3-4 million, it's not actually that bad.

You'd be looking at a straight up skills and regular season points downgrade for sure, but you would be getting 18-19 minutes of Tkachuk, another 15 minutes of a $3-4 million player in a middle six role for just under 40 minutes of play time per game as opposed to Marner playing 22.5 minutes.

You'd have to study that further in terms of minutes played, regular/post season points and a bunch of other factors.

They're talking about offering him $10M over in Ottawa.

 

[APV]

Why is trading Marner even being discussed still? Dubas made it abundantly clear that he will NOT be trading him this offseason. This trade discussion is completely moot lol.

 

[mikeo1]

I don't know if he's just shell shocked from the loss, but Marner came of as a moron in his exit interview. Not only did he lack any insight whatsoever, barely anything he said made any sense.

 

[Gallagbi]

I don't know if he's just shell shocked from the loss, but Marner came of as a moron in his exit interview. Not only did he lack insight, barely anything he said made any sense.

I don't think he's very bright. Seems like a nice kid though

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why is trading Marner even being discussed still? Dubas made it abundantly clear that he will NOT be trading him this offseason. This trade discussion is completely moot lol.

1)
It's summer time, what else are we going to talk about?

2)
If Dubas is considering trading him, he wouldn't say so publicly anyway.

3)
Reality might sink in at some point, what he thinks today might not be what he thinks tomorrow.

 

[APV]

1)
It's summer time, what else are we going to talk about?

2)
If Dubas is considering trading him, he wouldn't say so publicly anyway.

3)
Reality might sink in at some point, what he thinks today might not be what he thinks tomorrow.

Lol dude....very simply, the answers are below:

1) Lets discuss actual realistic scenarios to improve the team. Let's try to avoid trade scenarios that the GM has adamantly gone against and very simply said will NOT happen.

2) If he considered trading him right now, would he have very publicly say that he's NOT trading him? Not only Dubas, but Shanny and Keefe agreed that the core was to stay together their media engagements. Unless all 3 want to look like absolute fools, Marner will not be traded before next season. This is very clear to anyone that isn't living in their own NHL fantasy GM mode.

3) Fair enough. "Reality" may kick at "some point", but I can tell you this will not happen until next offseason at the VERY earliest. Smart managers dont change their mind overnight, especially after publicly stating their firm opinion to the biggest hockey market in the world the day before lol.

Please, let's think before we post so we can engage in a productive discussion that isn't NHL 21 or your fantasy league, or at least pay attention to the press conferences that were conducted yesterday. Mitch Marner will be a leaf for a MINIMUM of one more season.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.