Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[Havoc]

I was feeling similar to you but this should be happening. The Leafs just blew a 3-1 series lead vs an inferior team and fans are upset. This type of response is inevitable... especially on a message board where the most vocal people are going to be the angriest.

The fact is Marner isn't going anywhere. He is still only 24 years old and signed for 4 more prime years.

Let the fans vent. The wound is still fresh.

This hit me on a deep level lol. Majority of my rips have come when I was at the lowest of lows following this loss. Just need to talk some shit and roast some guys to help deal.

However most years I feel guilty for what I said when I calm down later. This is the first year I feel like I'd be okay if a block buster went down involving Marner. All depends who comes back. Marner value is still sky high.

 

[McSnypsky]

Another interesting math question to consider is do you take a player who can give you 95 points, 90 in the regular season and 5 in the playoffs. Or do you take a haircut on the regular season with a 70 point guy who can chip in 25 in the postseason plus whatever you can get in salary saved.

It’s simplistic and obviously not a black and white answer but captures the dilemma of a scoring title threat who disappears or a lower ceiling higher floor star player who you can depend on to chip in 5-6 points over 4 rounds.

That's the thing though, baring bad injuries I don't think Leafs miss playoffs with 60-70 point player in Marner's place but the playoff scoring would help immensely!

 

[Myopic]

This much is certain, Marner does not play well when the game gets rough. He's soft and a coward with no push back to his game. That will never change. He's got to go.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'll just let Matthews talk for me...
Marner ain't going anywhere

Sounds a hell of a lot more like a country club than a professional sports team.

You just don't get it. It's not about how good Marner is. It's not about how much the guys like him. It's not about the value we'd get back in a trade.

It's not about any of that.

It's about the fact that you can't have three 11 million dollar players in a flat cap world. We've now run the experiment twice against very VERY mediocre teams. Couldn't even get out of the first round. I'm not saying it wasn't worth a try. It was an interesting experiment. But the flat cap has decided for us that it's time to try something safer.

 

[stickty111]

So lets see the player who literally insulted the team through the media and used childish antics in contract talks. Cried about bonuses with the previous GM, and was so upset at being demoted to the 4th line, and we are supposed to believe him?
Yeah I think I am going to believe the reports and writers who are in tune with the team.

 

[WTFMAN99]

So lets see the player who literally insulted the team through the media and used childish antics in contract talks. Cried about bonuses with the previous GM, and was so upset at being demoted to the 4th line, and we are supposed to believe him?
Yeah I think I am going to believe the reports and writers who are in tune with the team.

Talented player but just shouldn't be in the leadership group.

 

[ToneDog]

According to some on this board (mostly disciples of Dubas) luck is the reason the Isles have had so much playoff success and why we have not. News flash, you make your own luck.

 

[Gabriel426]

According to some on this board (mostly disciples of Dubas) luck is the reason the Isles have had so much playoff success and why we have not. News flash, you make your own luck.

We have been unlucky for the past 4 yrs. Just like I have been unlucky all my life when it comes to winning the Lotto Max

 

[Beyonder91]

Sounds a hell of a lot more like a country club than a professional sports team.

You just don't get it. It's not about how good Marner is. It's not about how much the guys like him. It's not about the value we'd get back in a trade.

It's not about any of that.

It's about the fact that you can't have three 11 million dollar players in a flat cap world. We've now run the experiment twice against very VERY mediocre teams. Couldn't even get out of the first round. I'm not saying it wasn't worth a try. It was an interesting experiment. But the flat cap has decided for us that it's time to try something safer.

You just don't get it. The group has at least 3 more years to get it done and in the case of Marner, Matthews & Nylander they are all PRIME years.

As Matthews said... have fun with your outside noise

I'd be happily to bet that Marner doesn't get traded. PM me!

 

[WTFMAN99]

According to some on this board (mostly disciples of Dubas) luck is the reason the Isles have had so much playoff success and why we have not. News flash, you make your own luck.

Isles got nothing for JT too, he just walked.

We won't be in that situation if we move Marner. I don't want them to give him away. It'll be important to keep him out of the leadership group, let guys like JT, Matthews, Muzzin, Spezza etc be those voices.

If we get a proper return, round out the team like the Isles did.

 

[limeyleafsfan]

He deserves to be traded for that abortion of a media-availability session alone! Utterly disgraceful performance. He has the empathy and social skills of a barn door.

 

[ToneDog]

You just don't get it. The group has at least 3 more years to get it done and in the case of Marner, Matthews & Nylander they are all PRIME years.

I'd be happily to bet that Marner doesn't get traded. PM me!

Two more years because unless Matty signs he has to be traded before year 3.

 

[Beyonder91]

HAHA - Hard to keep up with your edits ... Yes I did see that ..... We agree these players do and should have influence on the shape of the team ... These players are key asserts for the Franchises ... But at the end of the day Management should always decide the team make up - I didnt like the way AM responded to that question implying his buddy was going nowhere .


The tail should never wag the dog !

I'd heavily bet Dubas will be moved before Matthews is. I'd also argue that it would be the same with Marner too.

 

[Beyonder91]

Two more years because unless Matty signs he has to be traded before year 3.

That's a good point.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It's about the fact that you can't have three 11 million dollar players in a flat cap world. We've now run the experiment twice against very VERY mediocre teams. Couldn't even get out of the first round. I'm not saying it wasn't worth a try. It was an interesting experiment. But the flat cap has decided for us that it's time to try something safer.

It's not even that. Matthews and Marner were the problem, and in the end, how much they get paid is irrelevant in this case. They could both be on bridge deals and we could have one or two more good role guys that could get us past Montreal (although our team was already more than good enough to beat Montreal so even that probably doesn't matter) but if Matthews and Marner continued playing like they did, we are not winning the Cup.

Cap should not be the (main) consideration when moving Marner. You don't move him just to open up cap, because ultimately any cap considerations revolving around him is not the reason we have lost the past few years. You move him because you believe he is not the right fit for the core as a player (even if he was making market value) and if that opens up money for something else, then bonus. For example, moving Marner for a guy like Eichel does not save us all that much cap and still puts us at 30+ mill on 3 forwards but it does likely change the core for the better.

 

[29Potvin]

According to some on this board (mostly disciples of Dubas) luck is the reason the Isles have had so much playoff success and why we have not. News flash, you make your own luck.

The Isles have the best coaching staff in the NHL and that staff has proven countless times that they get the best from the players they have. Preds,Caps and Isles have all been able to achieve in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

Isles got nothing for JT too, he just walked.

We won't be in that situation if we move Marner. I don't want them to give him away. It'll be important to keep him out of the leadership group, let guys like JT, Matthews, Muzzin, Spezza etc be those voices.

If we get a proper return, round out the team like the Isles did.

Only way you get full return is from a team that has a disgruntled player who wants out. Eichel or Jones are two candidates. Marner is only owed $6m/year for the final 4 years so no reason to sell low.

 

[Beyonder91]

It's not even that. Matthews and Marner were the problem, and in the end, how much they get paid is irrelevant in this case. They could both be on bridge deals and we could have one or two more good role guys that could get us past Montreal (although our team was already more than good enough to beat Montreal so even that probably doesn't matter) but if Matthews and Marner continued playing like they did, we are not winning the Cup.

Cap should not be the (main) consideration when moving Marner. You don't move him just to open up cap, because ultimately any cap considerations revolving around him is not the reason we have lost the past few years. You move him because you believe he is not the right fit for the core as a player (even if he was making market value) and if that opens up money for something else, then bonus. For example, moving Marner for a guy like Eichel does not save us all that much cap and still puts us at 30+ mill on 3 forwards but it does likely change the core for the better.

Finally some reason. Well said!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You just don't get it. The group has at least 3 more years to get it done and in the case of Marner, Matthews & Nylander they are all PRIME years.

As Matthews said... have fun with your outside noise

I'd be happily to bet that Marner doesn't get traded. PM me!

I'm not saying he WILL be traded necessarily. I'm saying he SHOULD.

Question, if we had four players as good as Mitch that all made 11 mil, would you still be saying "Keep em all. You don't trade players like Mitch". Five? Six? Seven? Where is the line?

Know where that line is for most teams? ZERO. The majority of teams have zero players making over 10 mil. Only TWO teams have 2 (the other team being complete trash). And only one team stupid enough to have THREE. And it's not even 10. It's ELEVEN. Projected cap increases made this at least in the realm of possibility to be manageable. But the flat cap has sealed our fate. You like the player too much to be reasonable about this.

 

[ToneDog]

Talented player but just shouldn't be in the leadership group.

You are probably right but I do not see it happening. Wasn't Paul Marner upset Mitch was not considered for the "C" ? Want to have their fingers in the pie but shit the bed when it is time to do your part. Maybe he matures soon and find a way to break through in the playoffs. They should give him some homework over the summer. Watch video of Patty Kane in the playoffs.

 

[Beyonder91]

I'm not saying he WILL be traded necessarily. I'm saying he SHOULD.

Question, if we had four players as good as Mitch that all made 11 mil, would you still be saying "Keep em all. You don't trade players like Mitch". Five? Six? Seven? Where is the line?

Know where that line is for most teams? ZERO. The majority of teams have zero players making over 10 mil. Only TWO teams have 2 (the other team being complete trash). And only one team stupid enough to have THREE. And it's not even 10. It's ELEVEN. Projected cap increases made this at least in the realm of possibility to be manageable. But the flat cap has sealed our fate. You like the player too much to be reasonable about this.

I'd argue Tavares should be moved before Marner. He is making more money, is 6 years older and has already showed signs of slowing down. He wasn't the best skater to begin with. Now he has had a bad concussion... Far more riskier to hang on to him for 4 more years than Marner IMO.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Isles got nothing for JT too, he just walked.

We won't be in that situation if we move Marner. I don't want them to give him away. It'll be important to keep him out of the leadership group, let guys like JT, Matthews, Muzzin, Spezza etc be those voices.

If we get a proper return, round out the team like the Isles did.

Islanders are far down the list of teams we should be looking at. If we wanted a team that has a moderate amount of success, look at Carolina. Other than goaltending somewhat letting them down the past few years, they are a team that looks like they can win a Cup.

Otherwise, Colorado and Tampa are the teams to be looking at right now, but ultimately you need to come up with your own plan that works.

 

[WTFMAN99]

You are probably right but I do not see it happening. Wasn't Paul Marner upset Mitch was not considered for the "C" ? Want to have their fingers in the pie but shit the bed when it is time to do your part. Maybe he matures soon and find a way to break through in the playoffs. They should give him some homework over the summer. Watch video of Patty Kane in the playoffs.

No shot threat like Kane. Matthews was swarmed because they'd rather Marner have the puck, won't beat Price clean like Matthews can.

Marner is a good player and the return should show it, no reason to force it for a Hall-Larsson type situation.

Islanders are far down the list of teams we should be looking at. If we wanted a team that has a moderate amount of success, look at Carolina. Other than goaltending somewhat letting them down the past few years, they are a team that looks like they can win a Cup.

Otherwise, Colorado and Tampa are the teams to be looking at right now, but ultimately you need to come up with your own plan that works.

Yes if you try to carbon copy other teams, you become a poor version of them. There are elements you can take though.

We had no physical presence, Foligno/Simmonds didn't deliver but MTL finished all their checks. We need to figure out how to make the team better for when things change from reg season vs post-season.

I don't want to copy the Isles specifically, just saying spreading the $$ around can help.

 

[ECYCLE]

You are probably right but I do not see it happening. Wasn't Paul Marner upset Mitch was not considered for the "C" ? Want to have their fingers in the pie but shit the bed when it is time to do your part. Maybe he matures soon and find a way to break through in the playoffs. They should give him some homework over the summer. Watch video of Patty Kane in the playoffs.

There's supposedly a rumour that he refused to change his PP position so he could be like Patrick Kane.