Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[ShaneFalco]

We'll see but I believe you are correct. I have this sick feeling that Dubas is addicted to this core and feels like making a change would be like admitting defeat. Kind of like Babcock who seemingly insisted on winning the way he wanted to win instead of adapting to the tools he had to work with. I really hope I'm wrong but if Dubas is committed to this core and won't consider making a change, I think we can look forward to one more year of not winning a playoff round and then Dubas will be the one who's no longer part of the team. We couldn't even get past MTL, I have zero faith that we'll be able to improve and beat a much tougher opponent next season (assuming we even make the playoffs).

It's pretty clear changing out the whole supporting cast, bringing in "leadership", toughness, a better goalie - just doesn't work when your core can't seem to compete in the playoffs. They were defeated before they even stepped on the ice in game 7

 

[Gary Nylund]

You're looking at this simplistically. In a vacuum, you don't trade a superstar player in their prime like Marner. But we are not in a vacuum. We are in a flat salary cap world. We have THREE 11 million dollar players. This is an unprecedented experiment. And, in the playoffs, it has failed. Like, record breaking levels of failure. If the cap was rising as predicted, then fine. It could work. But we need to freaking face reality here. In a flat cap world, three 11 million dollar players isn't going to work. It creates endless depth problems that are quite literally impossible to fix.

Now, when it comes to those three 11 million dollar players, one of them has a ntc. the other just won the Rocket. That leaves Mitch. It sucks. We don't want to lose him. But it's what should happen.

Excellent point. I would also ask this - if a player puts up a ton of points in the regular season but is mediocre in the playoffs, is he really a superstar?

 

[Beyonder91]

You said that trading Marner was a "bigger risk" - I say you're wrong.

And I say you're wrong? Haha
We can both have our opinion

 

[forecheck]

I wouldn't trade Marner unless you get a significant return which after this playoff series I doubt you're getting. Marner's a great player but him and Matthews just don't understand how to battle in the playoffs. At least that can be learned if they want it.

The roster isn't deep enough IMO to blame Matthews & Marner for the loss.

The guaranteed thing you are getting is Cap flexibility - which is a huge value in itself . Picks - Prospects -Player+ the ability to sign 2-3 VG players is nothing to sneeze at .

 

[Beyonder91]

You're looking at this simplistically. In a vacuum, you don't trade a superstar player in their prime like Marner. But we are not in a vacuum. We are in a flat salary cap world. We have THREE 11 million dollar players. This is an unprecedented experiment. Only one player EVER making over 10 mil has won a playoff series, and it happened Monday against us. And, in the playoffs, this experiment has failed. Like, record breaking levels of failure. If the cap was rising as predicted, then fine. It could work. But we need to freaking face reality here. In a flat cap world, three 11 million dollar players isn't going to work. It creates endless depth problems that are quite literally impossible to fix.

Now, when it comes to those three 11 million dollar players, one of them has a ntc. the other just won the Rocket. That leaves Mitch. It sucks. We don't want to lose him. But it's what should happen.

I'll just let Matthews talk for me...
Marner ain't going anywhere

 

[Gabriel426]

Salary cap era makes it too difficult. Trading Marner would be a franchise altering decision and he is still only 24. It's just not going to happen... especially as he is signed for 4 more prime years and just finished 4th in scoring. Management will look towards other issues for the playoff loss: Tavares going down, Coaching, Our bottom 6 forwards producing absolutely nothing etc...
Talent like Matthews/Marner can't be replaced.

Not saying it is a must trade but definitely should look into bc the core is not working. I really would not put JT getting injured in the consideration bc the team won all 3 games without JT.
Like I said, they are not dumping Marner and AM or other, they need to make trades that help the team. WE kept hearing salary cap....but teams always find a way.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Irony. The reality is that Marner's work ethic is better than Kessel, he is worlds better defensively that Kessel ever was.. and there is a good chance that if he keeps that up his fortunes will reverse.

For all his faults, Kessel plays within his limitations and doesn't turn into a crying child the second the checking picks up. I'd rather have a guy who's a consistent offensive presence than a guy who pretends to be a two-way superstar but fails on both ends of the ice if the game doesn't immediately go his way.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'll just let Matthews talk for me...
Marner ain't going anywhere

Great - they love eachother, tight bond etc So despite losing year after year, let's keep them together because they're buds

 

[Gabriel426]

This.. plus I still have quite a bit of confidence that Marner is going to turn his playoff reputation around. Lots of players have reversed that. Hell, if Kessel could do it, anyone can.

Kessel always perform in playoffs and stuff. Even with the Yokes in the playins.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's pretty clear changing out the whole supporting cast, bringing in "leadership", toughness, a better goalie - just doesn't work when your core can't seem to compete in the playoffs. They were defeated before they even stepped on the ice in game 7

It does seem that's our calling card - the bigger the situation, the less likely we are to show up.

Game 7 against MTL - almost shut out.
Game 5 against CLB - shut out.
Game 7's against Boston - blown out one time, kept it close until getting blown out 4-0 in the 3rd period in the other.

That's 4 years in a row now. Stay the course and hope that things will be different next season because ... ??

LOL at people who say that making a change would be based on emotions. How many more years of this do people need?

 

[forecheck]

I'll just let Matthews talk for me...
Marner ain't going anywhere

So I guess AM is running the show now .. Dumb answer - Play hard and collect your pay and let the management team do their job .... This is just a Country Club for spoiled Millionaires at this point.

 

[ECYCLE]

Kessel always perform in playoffs and stuff. Even with the Yokes in the playins.

Say what you will about Kessel and his hot dog ways, he proved his doubters wrong. Gah, that picture of him eating hot dogs from the cup is forever burned in my memories.

Let's see if Marner will.

 

[Beyonder91]

So I guess AM is running the show now .. Dumb answer - Play hard and collect your pay and let the management team do their job .... This is just a Country Club for spoiled Millionaires at this point.

He is the best goal scorer in the NHL. You better believe he is running the show. His contract proves that.
The same goes for McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby etc...

 

[Martin Skoula]

Great - they love eachother, tight bond etc So despite losing year after year, let's keep them together because they're buds

Imagine your good buddy Spezza comes out in the locker room and tells his best friends that this might be his last run, they watch him put in a 100% effort every time he's on the ice, and that's what they look like in game 7.

 

[koyvoo]

So I guess AM is running the show now .. Dumb answer - Play hard and collect your pay and let the management team do their job .... This is just a Country Club for spoiled Millionaires at this point.

The guy didn’t take accountability for his own spineless effort, I wouldn’t expect him to call out someone else’s.

 

[forecheck]

He is the best goal scorer in the NHL. You better believe he is running the show. His contract proves that.

Great - and you see no problem with that ?

 

[Beyonder91]

Great - and you see no problem with that ?

Sure... that's just the reality of the situation and it isn't isolated to Toronto.
There is limited amount of top talent in the league. The Leafs will do everything they can to keep him happy and make sure he re-signs.

 

[forecheck]

He is the best goal scorer in the NHL. You better believe he is running the show. His contract proves that.
The same goes for McDavid, Mackinnon, Crosby etc...

well you added the other names after your post ... I dont hear the Crosbys ... Mcdavids and Mckinnons flaunting this in the media ....

 

[Beyonder91]

well you added the other names after your post ... I dont hear the Crosbys ... Mcdavids and Mckinnons flaunting this in the media ....

They don't have to do that to prove my point. I'm sure you saw Mackinnon chew his coach out in the playoffs last year I believe, right?

 

[Gabriel426]

Say what you will about Kessel and his hot dog ways, he proved his doubters wrong. Gah, that picture of him eating hot dogs from the cup is forever burned in my memories.

Let's see if Marner will.

Actually I like Phil, just not a leader for any teams but you can always count on him to score and stuff when the pressure is high. Didn't he led the Olympics in scoring one year and Babs even suggested everybody will remember who Win the Gold Medal but not the highest scorer.

 

[ECYCLE]

Actually I like Phil, just not a leader for any teams but you can always count on him to score and stuff when the pressure is high. Didn't he led the Olympics in scoring one year and Babs even suggested everybody will remember who Win the Gold Medal but not the highest scorer.

Phil is a beauty. Don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise.

 

[forecheck]

They don't have to do that to prove my point

It proves his arrogance and I don't buy into your premise So it does nothing for your "Point".

 

[Beyonder91]

It proves his arrogance and I don't buy into your premise So it does nothing for your "Point".

I edited my post again. Did you see Mackinnon chew his coach out on the bench in the playoffs a couple years ago?

 

[Stephen]

Excellent point. I would also ask this - if a player puts up a ton of points in the regular season but is mediocre in the playoffs, is he really a superstar?

Another interesting math question to consider is do you take a player who can give you 95 points, 90 in the regular season and 5 in the playoffs. Or do you take a haircut on the regular season with a 70 point guy who can chip in 25 in the postseason plus whatever you can get in salary saved.

It’s simplistic and obviously not a black and white answer but captures the dilemma of a scoring title threat who disappears or a lower ceiling higher floor star player who you can depend on to chip in 5-6 points over 4 rounds.

 

[forecheck]

I edited my post again. Did you see Mackinnon chew his coach out on the bench in the playoffs last year?

HAHA - Hard to keep up with your edits ... Yes I did see that ..... We agree these players do and should have influence on the shape of the team ... These players are key asserts for the Franchises ... But at the end of the day Management should always decide the team make up - I didnt like the way AM responded to that question implying his buddy was going nowhere .


The tail should never wag the dog !