Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[Ducer]

#TRADEMARNER

 

[Mats13]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

 

[Stephen]

The Marner Defenders are coming out. Thought they would come out sooner.

Honestly, AM and Marner both didn’t play well and not only did they didn’t hit that extra gear for playoffs, they hit the reverse gear.
Keefe did bad too with his coaching decision and PP.

One thing I would say is that both AM and Marner played bad but how come most fans and even medias are talking about trading Marner and not AM.

Both are paid like Bruce Wayne. One has Batman potential, the other will always be Robin.

 

[Super Mega]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

yikes, quite the indictment, how aware are other GMs I wonder?

 

[Gabriel426]

Both are paid like Bruce Wayne. One has Batman potential, the other will always be Robin.

I always thought AM is Bucky and Marner is Steve Rogers waiting to get the Serum, lol.

 

[Gabriel426]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

Now the advance stats fans will say advance stats don’t tell the whole picture when it comes to Marner PK and playmaking.

 

[stickty111]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

Yikes. Thats an ugly stat. How many times did I hear Marner made Tavares and Matthews have career seasons. Maybe it's more Marner had great seasons because he played with those players.
Tavares wasn't getting enough credit for the 47 goal season. The argument was it's mainly Marner. Did people forget the wingers he had in NYI and he still became one of the best centres in the game.
This series should make us realize how important Tavares is to this team. Even when he isn't fully executing, there are certain plays that he would have really helped in. I'm also thinking JT wouldn't be easily shutdown as sometimes Auston was in this series. Matthews is more talented, but JT in tight corners is tough to handle and would have excelled in a series like this. Tavares was also playing some of the best hockey he has played here before the injury. There is a certain elegence the way Tavares plays which you appreciate. He also can be a bit better in the playoffs and I think he was going to be.

People will find this crazy and thats fine, but if Matthews was out instead of JT, we win this series. I think the Habs style suits JT's game well.

 

[killer1980]

It would actually be really stupid to turn down the contract he was offered. It was a mistake for the Leafs management to offer Nylander, Matthews and Marner those contracts. Put yourself in his spot. Here @mozz , I'm going to give you 10mill to play for the Leafs. Is the first thing you say, "but what about the rest of the roster?" or would it be "f***ing rights, where do I sign?"

That doesn't take away from how poor he played in the playoffs, but the whole contract discussion lays more at the feet of management than him.

It all lays at the feet of Dubas. Offering some immature kids the keys to the vault. No one in their right mind would turn that down. Truth be told they have nothing left to play for. I never once have seen the kind of fire and determination in their eyes that is necessary to win in the playoffs. They have achieved the ultimate goal without really having to do all that much. They coasted through a season playing flag football. They were totally unprepared or motivated to compete at the level that winning the Stanley Cup demands. In the press conference afterwards they looked like cry babies not grasping nor understanding what went wrong. Dump'em all and start all over again.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yikes. Thats an ugly stat. How many times did I hear Marner made Tavares and Matthews have career seasons. Maybe it's more Marner had great seasons because he played with those players.
Tavares wasn't getting enough credit for the 47 goal season. The argument was it's mainly Marner. Did people forget the wingers he had in NYI and he still became one of the best centres in the game.

It goes back to have Marner elevated any players? He always played with talented players.
We know JT helped a few players getting Career years.
AM made Hyman, Brown, Kap and AJ 20goals scorer. I think the only player who played with AM that didn’t end up scoring 20 goals is Marner.
Have not seen Willie done that on a consistent basis yet. Buy if this playoffs is any indication, think he can do it.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

I know it's a Marner thread, but that chart just backs up the eye test of Bill being able to carry his own line. A healthy forward group would have created matchup nightmares if he and Tavares were on separate lines.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

Makes sense.

Everyone talks about him elevating Matthews + Tavares but no one talks about him never carrying his own line. He is below-par without another star beside him.

This makes his contract look even more ridiculous.

 

[Antropovsky]

Marner's salary negotiation to this playoff collapse is going to be a cautionary tale for agents to review options with their star RFA agents. "Do you want to go for the jugular now and punch your ticket out of town in a few years or work with the team and continue to grow while allowing them to put better teammates around you. How much do you like here. How much do you like winning?"

Some guys will take the money, and others will think "I'm a team guy, I'm not going to pull a Marner." You already hear guys like Mackinnon and Aho alluding to that.

Well said.... used every forceful tactic in the book to get overpaid. Then proceeded to prove over the next two years that he wasn't ready for the pay he got.

Who lost out? (1) The fans and (2) his teammates. Valuable cap space into his pocket - cap space that may have enabled a deep run or even a cup win.

 

[leafsgirl12]

I'm not so sure...Seth Jones is available...even Eichel is available...if you're Dubas, do you stand pat with the same core and hope for a different result next year, and would he trade Marner ahead of Nylander. I'd rather keep Nylander, but I'm not Dubas.

Eichel has a serious neck injury and Jones has a modified no trade clause

 

[rielledup]

Yikes. Thats an ugly stat. How many times did I hear Marner made Tavares and Matthews have career seasons. Maybe it's more Marner had great seasons because he played with those players.
Tavares wasn't getting enough credit for the 47 goal season. The argument was it's mainly Marner. Did people forget the wingers he had in NYI and he still became one of the best centres in the game.
This series should make us realize how important Tavares is to this team. Even when he isn't fully executing, there are certain plays that he would have really helped in. I'm also thinking JT wouldn't be easily shutdown as sometimes Auston was in this series. Matthews is more talented, but JT in tight corners is tough to handle and would have excelled in a series like this. Tavares was also playing some of the best hockey he has played here before the injury. There is a certain elegence the way Tavares plays which you appreciate. He also can be a bit better in the playoffs and I think he was going to be.

People will find this crazy and thats fine, but if Matthews was out instead of JT, we win this series. I think the Habs style suits JT's game well.

Marner had 69 points in his second season and was over a ppg in his last 50 games that season playing with guys like bozak, Kari, jvr.

 

[Superstar]

Makes sense.

Everyone talks about him elevating Matthews + Tavares but no one talks about him never carrying his own line. He is below-par without another star beside him.

This makes his contract look even more ridiculous.

Elevating Matthews? Matthews scored 40 goals as a rookie centre with limited PP time. Marner went from a 69 point player to a 94 point player playing with Tavares, while Tavares only increased his previous career high by 2 points from 86 to 88 playing with Marner. Did Matthews and Tavares needed Marner to elevate their game before they were drafted as #1 overall picks to the NHL?

 

[leafsgirl12]

I doubt that. All he had to do was make simple plays he was not even capable of that.

Game 1: Over the glass penalty; DUMBASS pass that leads to shorthanded goal against
Game 6: over the glass (with no pressure what so ever...)
Game 7: offensive zone turnover (game was 0-0)


Guy making 11 AAV, wearing the "A" cannot be making such mistakes.

Matthews did not make even "one" massive mistake defensively or cost the team the game.

Matthews just didn't score true also a issue but marner had more issues

 

[leafsgirl12]

Having a bad season and choking in the playoffs are two completely different thing.

His play has changed after his ankle surgery looks like

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Yikes. Thats an ugly stat. How many times did I hear Marner made Tavares and Matthews have career seasons. Maybe it's more Marner had great seasons because he played with those players.
Tavares wasn't getting enough credit for the 47 goal season. The argument was it's mainly Marner. Did people forget the wingers he had in NYI and he still became one of the best centres in the game.
This series should make us realize how important Tavares is to this team. Even when he isn't fully executing, there are certain plays that he would have really helped in. I'm also thinking JT wouldn't be easily shutdown as sometimes Auston was in this series. Matthews is more talented, but JT in tight corners is tough to handle and would have excelled in a series like this. Tavares was also playing some of the best hockey he has played here before the injury. There is a certain elegence the way Tavares plays which you appreciate. He also can be a bit better in the playoffs and I think he was going to be.

People will find this crazy and thats fine, but if Matthews was out instead of JT, we win this series. I think the Habs style suits JT's game well.

"hOW mANy pLAyerS hAd caREEr YeArS wITh mARnEr?" was always such a dumb argument. Throughout his career Marner has had the benefit of playing with established, veteran scoring forwards who could put the puck in the net. JVR's "career year" was only one point better than his previous high, Bozak also always floated near 50 points before his career year. He then got Kadri and a still good Marleau to play with in 17-18 to go along with JVR and Bozak as common linemates.

Then Mitch gets stapled to an elite #1C in year 3, his contract year. Tavares got a career high but it was by 2 points more than previous, he had always been a capable 80 point guy if health allowed. That year was also Tavares' 2nd best shooting percentage year, roughly four points higher than his career average.

Now he's chained to a more mature Auston Matthews, who never had the benefit of playing exclusively with vets in their prime for an extended period. He had fellow rookies and sophomores in Nylander and Hyman as common linemates his first two years, then had a mish-mash in that third year with Kapanen, Johnsson, Marleau, and Nylander all taking turns playing alongside him.

Marner has always had favorable conditions to perform here, and from the sounds of it the past two seasons has even dictated things to ensure he himself can succeed.

 

[Gabriel426]

His play has changed after his ankle surgery looks like

Thought he had his surgery before the playins

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It all lays at the feet of Dubas. Offering some immature kids the keys to the vault. No one in their right mind would turn that down. Truth be told they have nothing left to play for. I never once have seen the kind of fire and determination in their eyes that is necessary to win in the playoffs. They have achieved the ultimate goal without really having to do all that much. They coasted through a season playing flag football. They were totally unprepared or motivated to compete at the level that winning the Stanley Cup demands. In the press conference afterwards they looked like cry babies not grasping nor understanding what went wrong. Dump'em all and start all over again.

Matthews and Nylander had that fire and determination... Nylander had 5 goals in 7 games this year.

There should be absolutely no regrets for Matthews or Nylander based on what they've brought.

Marner has been a problem. Not only for Matthews, but for the entire team.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Matthews just didn't score true also a issue but marner had more issues

35 shots, a lot of which were in excellent areas. Goals are what he needed obviously but the frustrating part is that he did not play poorly. Not regular season standards, but it would be easier to criticize him if he was not trying or doing anything well... But he was. Well enough to get the job done and beat Montreal handily. And we still lost.

Also worth noting that just like Marner positively affects Matthews' ability to score when Marner is on, he also negatively affects it when he is off. With Marner touching the puck so often, he plays a large part in how much Matthews touches the puck and where... And then even if you change it so that Matthews is the one dictating the play with the puck on his stick, he is effectively a man down because Marner is not effective off of the puck. He does not have anything that would attract pressure off of Matthews when he does not have the puck.

 

[Subway Schenn]

I'm going to stop coming back to this thread. There's nothing we can do now besides speculate for a few months/until he gets traded. If the guy has any sense he won't show up to the season end scrum in a Red Bull lid....

 

[ACC1224]

Man the level of stupidity in this thread is staggering.

 

[17 Clark]

Marner and co ran a very loud very public negotiation demanding Mitch become the highest paid NHL winger ever. That number clearly wasn’t what Dubas had in mind given the holdout lasted til training camp. Rock and a hard place to sit a key player half a season again in a cup window year. Dubas shares the blame.

however every media leak with Mitch’s negotiated cap hit and when terms broke was pretty well agreed it was a big overpay.

it basically immediately began affecting his play with gripping his stick too tight and playing hero puck and no doubt was continually creeping into his mind throughout periods of underperforming.

dubas gets a share of the blame but the Marner negotiation was bullshit and could have very well punched his ticket off of his childhood team and sullied his name in his own city forever.

There’s another thread saying the fans are to blame for mariners problems So if that’s true Do we get part of his paycheque Time for a little Junior man start being accountable I think they can fix Matthews mariner not a chance plus cap Space is more important than one player

 

[ECYCLE]

5v5 before people say it’s the penalty kill

He’s not worth anywhere near his caphit. If we can move him for a good return, do it and don’t look back.

Keefe should have split Matthews and Marner, it's becoming more evident to me that Marner is bringing Matthews down. Matthews was getting double teamed by Habs because they have the luxury to know Marner is a non-threat.

Ian Tulloch claims that Marner refuses to play goal-line during 5v4. Given Marner's contract debacle or the rumour that he demanded an A in his contract negotiations, I'm inclined to believe that Marner has too much say in his management. Either Marner humbles himself to be a team player or he can go play for Columbus or Buffalo.

The link if you want to read it: Game 7 Analysis: Where on Earth do the Toronto Maple Leafs go from here?