Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Gary Nylund]

TRADE MARNER

Just getting in my daily rep, like this savage.

+1

As a fan of the team, that would make me happy.
As a fan of the team, what bugs me is history repeating intself with Marner signing for a lot more than was necessary. They could have locked him up for 8 years at 8.5mm the last time had Dubas weighed the cost risk of Marner killing it in his first year with Tavares. There is no team in the league that wants to be like the Islanders who lost a stud for nothing.
a. That is the worse case scenario.
b. The second worse case is the leafs sign Marner late for huge money and it doesn't work out. Even a voluntary move would be way more complicated. The team loses out moving him and potentially have to eat cap.
c.The third worse is they sign him this off season. If it doesn't work out, he will not be able to bear the scrutiny of the fans and media for 8 years and will agree to a trade. Given his current cap hit percentage and a projected cap of 92MM in 2025, his projected salary would be 12.3MM. 12.5MM might get it done. 1MM/year more than Willy is more than fair.

I don't give a shit that people are ok with losing him for nothing just as I don't care that people think a lot of stupid things.
He is an asset and brinkmanship is the strategy of fools.

This is just wrong. It already hasn't "worked out" so signing him for another 8 years is madness.

Marner as of today wants to be a Leaf for life, thinking that this will change at some point is very risky to say the least. He has people like you fawning over him because he'll be our all time leader in some offensive categories and near the top in others (regular season of course) and that's enough for you and some others to build statues for him. Bottom line, if he refuses to be traded over the next couple of months when there will be a ton of heat on him, there's zero guarantee that he'll agree to a trade at some future date. He'll just keep doing what he does, telling the media that "we don't care about what anyone says that's not in the room", and laugh all the way to the bank. And if by "if it doesn't work out" you mean he'll start sucking during the regular season in addition to the playoffs, then who the hell would want to take on that albatross of a contract even if he did agree to a trade?

We should have traded this man child years ago. Letting him walk for nothing is obviously not ideal but the worst case scenario is that Marner gets extended for the 12+ million he is more than likely demanding.

Go ahead, continue ranting now about how everyone that doesn't see it your way is stupid.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

This is just wrong. It already hasn't "worked out" so signing him for another 8 years is madness.

Marner as of today wants to be a Leaf for life,

He doesn't. That's just the smart posturing statement. I believe Marner wants out kind of desperately. He looks like a deer in headlights.

thinking that this will change at some point is very risky to say the least. He has people like you fawning over him because he'll be our all time leader in some offensive categories and near the top in others (regular season of course) and that's enough for you and some others to build statues for him. Bottom line,

if he refuses to be traded over the next couple of months when there will be a ton of heat on him,

he should know he wont be able to perform. If he does stay I think he'll be out early with injuries.

We should have traded this man child years ago. Letting him walk for nothing is obviously not ideal but the worst case scenario is that Marner gets extended for the 12+ million he is more than likely demanding.

for sure.

 

[Notsince67]

they are more important.

your best players need to perform in key games.

@ACC1224 - do you think the Leafs may extend Marner ?

I know you have a habbit of making proclamations but it is really hard to follow when you never make an effort to justify such proclamations with a lucid argument that have facts backing up presuppositions. It kind of feels like a school yard with no adults.

+1

This is just wrong. It already hasn't "worked out" so signing him for another 8 years is madness.

Marner as of today wants to be a Leaf for life, thinking that this will change at some point is very risky to say the least. He has people like you fawning over him because he'll be our all time leader in some offensive categories and near the top in others (regular season of course) and that's enough for you and some others to build statues for him. Bottom line, if he refuses to be traded over the next couple of months when there will be a ton of heat on him, there's zero guarantee that he'll agree to a trade at some future date. He'll just keep doing what he does, telling the media that "we don't care about what anyone says that's not in the room", and laugh all the way to the bank. And if by "if it doesn't work out" you mean he'll start sucking during the regular season in addition to the playoffs, then who the hell would want to take on that albatross of a contract even if he did agree to a trade?

We should have traded this man child years ago. Letting him walk for nothing is obviously not ideal but the worst case scenario is that Marner gets extended for the 12+ million he is more than likely demanding.

Go ahead, continue ranting now about how everyone that doesn't see it your way is stupid.

Not every one but those who I think are stupid usually know who they are. Might you know one or two?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

@Notsince67 do you think the Leafs may extend Marner ?

 

[cannucky]

Why not trade him at the TDL if we still have no plans to resign him? It is not like he is going to suddenly dominate in April. Get something for him while you still can. He might waive if he did not in July.

Cap hit will be easier to fit in and he is owed very little in terms of real dollars.

This is the only scenario that make any sense really . Why would he accept a deal now ? he gets paid out on July 1st all but 775k and most of the few teams that could absorb his opening night cap are bottom feeders performance wise and or cap floor teams money wise so he won't get a big number on a new deal from them . Come TDL there will be several major contenders playing the LTIR game with a legit shot at the cup looking for his elite skill set . Remember all the haters 3 and 4 years ago that insisted he had to be paired with Mathews for Mathews sake ? they are the same group most vocal here that he must be shipped out , it will be interesting to see what happens to Mathews numbers when he is gone ?
Welcome to the off-season in Toronto , this why we can't have nice things , lets gang up on the guy who leads the team in playoff PPG and is a whopping .005 PPG regular season behind Mathews .

 

[Notsince67]

@Notsince67 do you think the Leafs may extend Marner ?

I do unless there is an offer no one can refuse. These things work out as a negotiation. Brinkmanship is always a losing proposition for all sides.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I know you have a habbit (habit) of making proclamations

With my plethora of proclamations, feel free to pick just one and I'll try to justify my proclamation.

You've never *ONCE* called me out on a proclamation.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Brinkmanship is always a losing proposition for all sides.

his agent is the epitome of brinksmanship.

There is a near zero chance Marner is extended other than:
= Leafs retain FULL trade options.
- or a sign and trade.

and I only think a sign and trade is on the table.

Marner will be traded before the season. It's just a matter of time. Marner wants to be traded.

 

[Notsince67]

With my plethora of proclamations, feel free to pick just one and I'll try to justify my proclamation.

You've never *ONCE* called me out on a proclamation.

My point is that they are hard to argue with when they are devoid of facts. The one specifically that comes to mind is "
"Tre will not sign Marner.
EVER."

 

[ACC1224]

I never said they werent. I wasnt the one throwing up cherry picked stats of the playoffs. I was merely pointing out that players that only show up on game 5,6 & 7 arent the heroes of the playoffs because there might not have been a need to get to these games had everyone been clicking

Yeah, I was adding on to your thought not criticizing it.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Mitch will be a shit show if he steps on the ice as a Leaf.

HE WILL TANK HIS LONG TERM VALUE.

Marner also NEVER lived up to his contract. He took the loser Dubas to the cleaners. Marner is a goner.

 

[ToneDog]

What's interesting is that people believe the last 3 games of a series is more important than the first 4 given that the last 3 are conditional based on the performance of the first 4.

The last three games many not be more important but they are absolutely tougher. Why do you think Leafs have so much difficulty closing out teams?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

My point is that they are hard to argue with when they are devoid of facts. The one specifically that comes to mind is "
"Tre will not sign Marner.
EVER."

Exhibit A:

Exhibit B:

It's not Marner himself even. The Leafs cannot run it back. No one will accept that.

Tre will NEVER LIVE DOWN resigning Marner. EVER.

Marner is gone.

HE HAS TO BE MOVED to enable change.

 

[Notsince67]

The last three games many not be more important but they are absolutely tougher. Why do you think Leafs have some much difficulty closing out teams?

Id also argue that the Leafs have a problem with game 1. I'd say there is a major problem with preparation, mindset and the ability to adjust...a trifecta of responsibilities that the coach carries the most responsibility for. I am personally happy that at least that part of the equation can be eliminated this coming year.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

How differently I'd view this team if Nylander and Marner were developed as centre's instead of wingers. I'd like to point a finger at Babcock. Two premium players playing premium positions reduced to the lowest value position. Weren't both natural centres?

Now if we do trade Marner, we'd probably want a high potential younger centre, defensemen in return.

Dubas/Shanny really botched this contract. A lot of his peers signed after him for over 1M less AND for 8 years. Can't keep making overpays.

And this is without mentioning playoff performance. At some point there has to be recourse for the losses. Shanahan should've lost his job for not trading Marner pre-NMC. But here we are

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I am personally happy that at least that part of the equation can be eliminated this coming year.

Shanny basically said without saying that moving on from Marner IS THE CHANGE.

Management WANT him gone.

They picked Nylander OVER Marner.

anyone, who thinks you can create a balanced with with two RWs making over 10 is incorrect.

Management will NOT do that.

They are moving on from Marner. If Marner won't waive, he's playing third line and PP2.

Marner ... developed as centre

maybe in the Saudi 3 on 3 league. not the nhl.

 

[ACC1224]

I get the impression some feel there is some type of animosity between the team and player.
That seems to be more applying ones feelings to the situation than the reality of it.

A lot of this nonsense should be paused until July 1 when he becomes eligible to be re-signed.

 

[Notsince67]

Exhibit A:
View attachment 880227

Exhibit B:
View attachment 880228

It's not Marner himself even. The Leafs cannot run it back. No one with accept that.

Tre will NEVER LIVE DOWN resigning Marner. EVER.

Marner is gone.

HE HAS TO BE MOVED to enable change.

The team changes every year. The problems that don't change are:
1. Defensive personel that doesn't require every forward to aspire to play like a selke winner.
2. Lack of a stud money goalie that can shut down teams in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

How differently I'd view this team if Nylander and Marner were developed as centre's instead of wingers. I'd like to point a finger at Babcock. Two premium players playing premium positions reduced to the lowest value position. Weren't both natural centres?

Now if we do trade Marner, we'd probably want a high potential younger centre, defensemen in return.

Dubas/Shanny really botched this contract. A lot of his peers signed after him for over 1M less AND for 8 years. Can't keep making overpays.

And this is without mentioning playoff performance. At some point there has to be recourse for the losses. Shanahan should've lost his job for not trading Marner pre-NMC. But here we are

Ignoring Babcock's mental issues, they pulled the rug from under him once Dubas took over. He was 100% a better coach than Keefe but on the ice his beliefs conflicted with the Boy Blunder.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The team changes every year. The problems that don't change are:
1. A material change to the quality of the defensive personel that doesn't require every forward to aspire to play like a selke winner.
2. A stud money goalie that can shut down teams in the playoffs.

that's where Marner's cap space will go.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not every one but those who I think are stupid usually know who they are. Might you know one or two?

You're having trouble remembering what your rants sound like.

 

[thewave]

I know you have a habbit of making proclamations but it is really hard to follow when you never make an effort to justify such proclamations with a lucid argument that have facts backing up presuppositions. It kind of feels like a school yard with no adults.


Not every one but those who I think are stupid usually know who they are. Might you know one or two?

What do you think the odds are of Marner being extended vs. The odds of him developing a shot and physical playoff ready game?

 

[Notsince67]

that's where Marner's cap space will go.

Hard to follow your argument when most of your posts characterizing him as a soft, unskilled generally crappy player. Throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is not an effective method of honing a decent discussion. I can accept the notion that cap space might help and may very well submit an argument that in this case it wouldn't. Knowing that the response would be that he is a soft with character issues as a deflection to the point without dealing with the substance of an argument, is not a debate.
If the issue is cap...then stick to it. If the issue is character, then 1MM in capspace is too much . Somewhere in between may lie the truth but the tradeoffs don't get resolved with histrionic calls to the mob. You argue as part of a collective tribe...neither stating your position on what you feel an appropriate resigning would look like nor stating outright that he should go for nothing. Either would be acceptable but leaves room for debate.
I think I've been pretty clear about my position yet get characterized with pejoratives instead of dealing with the substance of the argument. How is that helpful?

 

[Notsince67]

What do you think the odds are of Marner being extended vs. The odds of him developing a shot and physical playoff ready game?

I don't accept the presupposition that he doesn't have a shot nor cant play is a physical series. Compared to what?
I am 99.9% sure that he could do both of those things to a far greater extent than yourself. Who or what are you comparing him to and why?

 

[Mess]

a more realistic Step 1) is 2 part
Part 1: Treliving meets with the agent, and finds out what type of salary and term Marner is looking for?
Part 2: then ask him, if a deal presents itself, what would be the conditions that Marner would consider it?

part 1 will obviously get an answer, though perhaps not a realistic one (i.e. 13.5x8 as a starting point)
but, its how the agent reacts to part 2 that will determine if Marner is open to a move or not.
If Marner is not open to a move, you work on part 1, because he is too good a talent to toss away, unless he is actually a 'cancer' in the locker room, but, from everything I heard, he's one of the most popular and liked players on the team, and is involved and friendly with everyone, but, if he has soured, then you tell him that he is no longer in the Leafs plans, and see if he'll move now, or at the deadline.

in your scenario, you burn your bridges with the player/agent before you have any idea of what you can get for Marner, and once you do that, the agent will 'leak' it around the league, and your step 2 will be nothing but lowball offers.
Treliving needs there to be no idea that he is not willing or wanting to resign Marner, and have GM's approach him, wherein Tre can ask if certain players would be on or off the table well before anyone knows his real intention is to deal him.
i.e. Buffalo calls because they really need to make the playoffs, so, you ask, if Power available (because I cant see Buffalo have Dahlin, Power and Byram ...Power straight up or you negotiate for Byram and Benson and then you would to talk to Ferris)
GM's can make hypotheticals to get a framework in place before they speak to the agent/player, as what happened with Markstrom, and Krug, you just need to hope the player is willing to waive, which Marner may not, but, if you PO the player and agent, you will lose him for nothing, and he still may have a career year, as he still needs a big $$ contract.

personally, I do not think the Leafs have any interest in trading Marner.

From the reports released so far for public consumption is that neither side is any hurry to talk contract extension.

That to me sends the opposite message you believe, and that Leafs would like to move on from Marner so there is obviously no rush to talk $$ when that will be another teams concern. With BT going public claiming with the already well known knowledge, that Marner has a NMC and he has a lot of say in the proceedings, that is not a sign that a new extension is coming but rather open to trade proposals.

If the Leafs had every desire to retain Marner then the GM would be saying things like that Mitch is a key member of the team and getting him re-signed in a large priority of his this summer. His NMC completely irrelevant to a player you plan on keeping at all costs, and as you believe have any interest in trading. But that is not the case its the exact opposite that is being reported by insiders like Friedman and LeBrun.

Keep in mind no interested GM of another team is not going to waste his time trying to create trade scenarios until they believe Marner would be willing to accept a trade to their team and also on their contract terms. There will be no cart before horse type of trade negotiations until the other team has a clear indication if Marner is a trade option to them because of his full NMC.

I suspect that Leafs will come to Marner and Agent next when/if they get any real serious bidder for his services, or ask for a potential short list eventually that Marner provides of potential teams he might waive his NMC for. Then Treliving can approach those teams to see if there is any interest in his services and discuss potential trade targets as well as then work on making sure what new team would be willing to offer Marner in terms of $$ and length..

Step #1 for all interested suitors is Availability. All else is moot if that player has no interest becoming a member of that organization. BT has already by not declaring Marner an untouchable and priority re-sign that his phone is open for business. Only serious bidders need apply where the conversation has any potential of continuing beyond step #1 !!!