Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Zybalto]

There are different levels of risk... I want to try to avoid the Huberdeau level.

Not a huge amount of risk in a Marner signing really. Great defensiely and super smart. Ideally use the current hate to leverage a better deal.

Nylander going forward is the bigger risk as he's a pure-scoring winger that signed during a career year. He's still young though but the end of the deal might look rough if he loses his wheels a bit.

No one is going to come close to that Hubey deal.

 

[Gabriel426]

When they were young, you could brush it off.

My big problem is that I've been screaming from the hilltops that Campbell and Samsonov would cost us. Would any team have performed with those guys in net? This isnt the Rangers. They arnt wondering what to do with a Shesterkin in net. They are actually asking what to do with a guy like Panarin who is an offensive disappointment and defensive sieve.

I've been waiting for a playoff goalie for years now. No sane person would ever say about this team: "man, despite their goalies play, they lost"....but doesnt every hockey fan say "you need good goaltending to win in the playoffs!"

I guess we saw a bit of it with Woll. I mean, over the last 3 years:

With Woll:

.933 save % + undefeated

Without Woll:

.897 save% (Both Campbell and Samsonov had the same here)

Sub .900 save% isnt gonna cut it from a playoff starter on any team. They would have sunk any time. Im pretty confident of that. It's why all the rest of this is white noise to me. One has been pulled from his last 2 series and both have been pulled from the league this year (one it looks for forever)

I suppose the Oilers with Skinner (.and his .897 save%) may be proving this wrong but they are also an amazing healthy team in a weaker conference. (would they win a thing with just one of Drai or McDavid injured?) My heart actually wants them to win to see McDavid get a chance at a ring but my head says Florida because they are strong everywhere.

If you can’t score more than 2 goals a game, even having Roy or Hasek ain’t going to win you many games in the playoffs.
Not saying goaltending is not a problem but our top guys choking is also a problem.
and don’t use the weaker division or conf as an excuse since I am 100% sure if we played the Canucks, we would still get out goalied by Silvos.
Teams find ways to win but our boys find ways to lose.

 

[Confucius]

Well that really brings us back to the start of the Marner saga.

He already makes 11 million, I wouldn’t give him anymore and since we already have a winger signed to 11.5 million, that leaves him the odd man out. We need a different core piece or a solid 2C + D in a trade return.

Which does bring us full circle, I voted he is staying and will walk at the end of the year for nothing, unless we offer 11 X 8.. I’m not bitter about it, it is his right to fulfill his end of his contract. We will see what we get for 11 million, my guess is a couple if mid level grinders. There will be no star D man or star goalie coming here. Again that is just what I believe the likely outcome will be.

 

[Gabriel426]

The thing is, most teams would've made changes after this much failure. Look at Florida. They were a shit team for years when they first drafted Ekblad, Barkov, Huberdeau. But a lot of that was due to bad management. They bring in a new group, have a couple great regular seasons, after 2 years realize the group doesn't have "it" and made some major changes.

But to answer your question, I'd be dunking on them every chance I get. I loved hating on the Sharks but this Leafs team is so bad they wish they had the Sharks "success"

We are in the Sharks territory without their success in that we might change the Captaincy while keeping the former Captain. Having a joker as face of the franchise. Esp since our guys still look up to Marleau.

 

[notbias]

A reminder that Marner the playoff choker is ahead of these players for playoff PPG (active players only, 20+ GP in their career).

Barkov
Panarin
ROR
Zibanejad
Robertson
Kopitar
Verhaeghe
Backstrom
Hubeardeau
Pettersson
Nylander
Boeser
Stamkos
Stone
Barzal
Kuznetsov
Hintz
Forsberg
Connor
Pavelski
Bennett
Hertl
Tarasenko
Reinhart
Fiala
Etc

Marner is 22nd, one ahead of Matthews, and has the same as Marchand and RNH.

There are 11 players with a PPG of 1.00 or higher.

Marner has been bad, but I think he has been better than he gets credit for, he's had some good series (unfortunately not many recently).

But Sabres and Sens never made the playoffs 8 yrs in a row or have three and soon to be four 11mil plus players on their payroll.

Not making the playoffs is worse to me... maybe people would rather just be a bottom feeder, but not me.

 

[JKG33]

We are in the Sharks territory without their success in that we might change the Captaincy while keeping the former Captain. Having a joker as face of the franchise. Esp since our guys still look up to Marleau.

Yup. At least they got it right in the end putting the C on Pavelski.. but Thornton and Marleau just weren't it. There's a lot of parallels between those two and Matthews/Marner.

Look at how Boston turned around after trading Thornton. That'll be the Leafs once Matthews goes

 

[Gabriel426]

A reminder that Marner the playoff choker is ahead of these players for playoff PPG (active players only, 20+ GP in their career).

Barkov
Panarin
ROR
Zibanejad
Robertson
Kopitar
Nylander
Stamkos
Stone
Barzal
Kuznetsov
Hintz
Forsberg
Connor
Pavelski
Bennett
Hertl
Tarasenko
Reinhart
Fiala
Etc

Marner is 22nd, one ahead of Matthews, and has the same as Marchand and RNH.

There are 11 players with a PPG of 1.00 or higher.

Marner has been bad, but I think he has been better than he gets credit for, he's had some good series (unfortunately not many recently).



Not making the playoffs is worse to me... maybe people would rather just be a bottom feeder, but not me.

My original post was about how you would feel about a team like the Leafs if it is not the Leafs.
Think we will all be dunking on them for entertainment

 

[notbias]

Yup. At least they got it right in the end putting the C on Pavelski.. but Thornton and Marleau just weren't it. There's a lot of parallels between those two and Matthews/Marner.

Look at how Boston turned around after trading Thornton. That'll be the Leafs once Matthews goes

This team can win with Tim Thomas level goaltending...

 

[Gabriel426]

Yup. At least they got it right in the end putting the C on Pavelski.. but Thornton and Marleau just weren't it. There's a lot of parallels between those two and Matthews/Marner.

Look at how Boston turned around after trading Thornton. That'll be the Leafs once Matthews goes

I don’t think AM is a joke like Thornton but he does lack the I will take over DNA

This team can win with Tim Thomas level goaltending...

They still need to score

 

[notbias]

My original post was about how you would feel about a team like the Leafs if it is not the Leafs.
Think we will all be dunking on them for entertainment

I am just pointing out that more comical franchises fly under the radar.

I'd think poorly of the Leafs if I weren't a fan (I still do), but there are worse franchises.

So yes, we are a joke, I also think that it is more of an issue because we are the Leafs, as evident by how people still have faith in Ottawa and Buffalo.

They still need to score

They have been winning with Woll and he isn't doing as well as Thomas did.

Not ignoring their scoring issues, they have them.

 

[JKG33]

A reminder that Marner the playoff choker is ahead of these players for playoff PPG (active players only, 20+ GP in their career).

Barkov
Panarin
ROR
Zibanejad
Robertson
Kopitar
Verhaeghe
Backstrom
Hubeardeau
Pettersson
Nylander
Boeser
Stamkos
Stone
Barzal
Kuznetsov
Hintz
Forsberg
Connor
Pavelski
Bennett
Hertl
Tarasenko
Reinhart
Fiala
Etc

Marner is 22nd, one ahead of Matthews, and has the same as Marchand and RNH.

There are 11 players with a PPG of 1.00 or higher.

Marner has been bad, but I think he has been better than he gets credit for, he's had some good series (unfortunately not many recently).



Not making the playoffs is worse to me... maybe people would rather just be a bottom feeder, but not me.

A lot of those guys also have the overpaid playoff choker label (Pettersson, Huberdeau, Panarin), have put up Conn Smythe level playoffs (Stone, ROR, Kopitar), are selke level players and not paid to just put up points (Barkov), or and most importantly, are so much f***ing cheaper than Marner that they don't belong in the same conversation

I don’t think AM is a joke like Thornton but he does lack the I will take over DNA

I think he's an even bigger joke than Thornton tbh

 

[Gabriel426]

I am just pointing out that more comical franchises fly under the radar.

I'd think poorly of the Leafs if I weren't a fan (I still do), but there are worse franchises.

So yes, we are a joke, I also think that it is more of an issue because we are the Leafs, as evident by how people still have faith in Ottawa and Buffalo.



They have been winning with Woll and he isn't doing as well as Thomas did.

Well who have faith in Sabres and Sens? I think beside their fans, don’t think anyone even care about them. Some here look at them as an up and coming team but not a threat esp with Green being the Sens coach, lol.

 

[notbias]

A lot of those guys also have the overpaid playoff choker label (Pettersson, Huberdeau, Panarin), have put up Conn Smythe level playoffs (Stone, ROR, Kopitar), are selke level players and not paid to just put up points (Barkov), or and most importantly, are so much f***ing cheaper than Marner that they don't belong in the same conversation

I am just pointing out that I think the hate for Marner is a little misguided.

He has been bad in a lot of series, I admit that, I just think he hasn't been as bad as the hate.

I think people assume he is the lower end when it comes to collecting points, and that is not the case, his lows just seem to be very low, and frequent recently, it is an issue.

Well who have faith in Sabres and Sens? I think beside their fans, don’t think anyone even care about them. Some here look at them as an up and coming team but not a threat esp with Green being the Sens coach, lol.

The main board every year

 

[Gabriel426]

I am just pointing out that I think the hate for Marner is a little misguided.

He has been bad in a lot of series, I admit that, I just think he hasn't been as bad as the hate.

I think people assume he is the lower end when it comes to collecting points, and that is not the case, his lows just seem to be very low, and frequent recently, it is an issue.



The main board every year

Think most are just trolling

 

[JKG33]

I am just pointing out that I think the hate for Marner is a little misguided.

He has been bad in a lot of series, I admit that, I just think he hasn't been as bad as the hate.

I think people assume he is the lower end when it comes to collecting points, and that is not the case, his lows just seem to be very low, and frequent recently, it is an issue.



The main board every year

The thing with Matthews and Marner is, their points often feel like empty calories. For what they're paid, they should be taking over the series and putting the team on their back just like McDrai.

Because that's the thing, most of those players you've listed aren't their "peers" based on payscale and not who they should be compared to

 

[notbias]

The thing with Matthews and Marner is, their points often feel like empty calories. For what they're paid, they should be taking over the series and putting the team on their back just like McDrai.

Because that's the thing, most of those players you've listed aren't their "peers" based on payscale and not who they should be compared to

McDavid puts the team on his back, Drai gets PP points, and is an even player at 5v5 usually.

Matthews has put the team on his back a few times, but Marner hasn't done it recently.

I want more out of them and yes, for their pay they should be producing more and taking over games.

Like I said, I just think they get a lot more hate than they deserve (they deserve some, although I am not sure Matthews deserves much).

 

[socko]

A reminder that Marner the playoff choker is ahead of these players for playoff PPG (active players only, 20+ GP in their career).

Barkov
Panarin
ROR
Zibanejad
Robertson
Kopitar
Verhaeghe
Backstrom
Hubeardeau
Pettersson
Nylander
Boeser
Stamkos
Stone
Barzal
Kuznetsov
Hintz
Forsberg
Connor
Pavelski
Bennett
Hertl
Tarasenko
Reinhart
Fiala
Etc

Marner is 22nd, one ahead of Matthews, and has the same as Marchand and RNH.

There are 11 players with a PPG of 1.00 or higher.

Marner has been bad, but I think he has been better than he desgets credit for, he's had some good series (unfortunately not many recently).



Not making the playoffs is worse to me... maybe people would rather just be a bottom feeder, but not me.

This is the logicial fallacy that keeps getting pushed. Marner is a playmaker and his primary job is to generate team offense, that's why he has assists and not goals, and the team offense in the playoffs, with him leading, has been dreadful. That's because a charmin soft winger playing ice capades from the perimeter is not an effective playoff strategy.

 

[Tak7]

As an outside perspective.

We are literally at the very beginning of the Marner offseason trade conversation, the agent saying he wants to play out the year is just literally the start of an extremely complex back-and-forth between Toronto and the player.

Darren Ferris routinely takes his clients straight to the brink of free agency, and often has them test it as well - Taylor Hall and Nazem Kadri are 2 notable free agents in recent times who were both wanted by their teams, but Ferris stood firm.

The same is going to happen with Marner - this won't be a complex back and forth.

Marner has to be traded, the pressure needs to be put on, this is your only shot, it’s going to get way way worse from here.

They've coddled these guys ever since they stepped up to the draft stage and put that Leafs jersey on - they aren't about to go from that way of treating them, to all of a sudden finding the resolve and fortitude required to be firm & ruthless.

It's a fallacy to suggest that this front office has it in them to push a player out the door if a suitable trade is on the table.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Why should I do that work?

You seem so invested in this you should have the whole plan moving forward at the ready no?

Gimmie just one fix. I've given up on you actually coming up with that other number at this point.

It's the GMs job to come up with a fix depending on the information he has available, which NONE OF US are privy to. Oh, and what "number" are you talking about? I won't continue this pseudo intellectual navel gazing exercise with you.

 

[Trapper]

Which does bring us full circle, I voted he is staying and will walk at the end of the year for nothing, unless we offer 11 X 8.. I’m not bitter about it, it is his right to fulfill his end of his contract. We will see what we get for 11 million, my guess is a couple if mid level grinders. There will be no star D man or star goalie coming here. Again that is just what I believe the likely outcome will be.

Do you really think Marner will stay for the exact same salary? A 100K raise?

 

[thewave]

Lets play a little devils advocate from my side of the aisle I guess.

Now Marner has been a matchup guy against Kucherov/Barkov/Pasta the Last 3 years and has put up a PPG (12 highest for a forward in the playoffs) and would be a projected +34 for a season.

Now lets say we traded him and used his cap for something else. Where would you want the money/return to go?

Campbell/Samsonov are up there with the worst goaltending in the playoffs with Samsonov being pulled the last 2 series. Is there a goalie you have your eyes on? That would seem to be of paramount importance.

The Leafs bottom 6 have been outscored very badly 5v5 over this time lending credence to the fact we are too top heavy. Are there any players you think would stop the bleeding on one of the worst bottom 6 in hockey in the playoffs?

Do you think the coaching change will cure the brutal PP in the playoffs? Or is there a piece we can grab?

After all this, how do we replace the fact that Marner is an elite defensive winger who still put up a PPG in the playoffs.

While it still feels like Marner's 10.9 caphit was money well spent compared with a ton of other areas, how does replacing it fix things? Just looking for solutions here.

How about this.

Marner does not perform in the POs.

He constantly flips weak crap on net from way out for his corsi.

He gets rid of the puck as soon as he has it and hopes Matthews scores which increases his points totals.

He does not go into corners or fight for pucks ever. He leaves that for Matthews to do. This takes away from Matthews time space and overall energy in a game.

Marner also does things like cry, throw his gloves and flip the puck out of the rink when he is under pressure to perform in the POs.

He used the media for contract negotiations.

He used the media to complain about a coach and a GM in Lou.

He is now saying will play out the season here. So again. Using the media.

Does not throw checks.

High danger passes in big games..


Ok so who the heck still wants to keep him?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

That's all well and good but Marner's got lots of money to be the type to carry us in times of adversity. And with so many guys making top dollar one of them might go down in the playoffs. Then what, you're 11m short. Just like when Tavares went down and then Matthews/Nylander split the series.
I think all that you said while I agree could be used as evidence against the roster construction and could still lead to the conclusion that he's the one to be moved for other assets.

You and I don't disagree all that much the only difference we have is on whether or not the arguments are emotional, and which "side" exhibits said emotion.

With that said I apologize to you for being condescending towards you and I'll endeavor to eliminate that behavior in the future... the key words being "towards you". Others fully deserve it.

 

[ULF_55]

Could it be sample size? If we just use 7 games as a sample size anybody could look terrible and anybody could look great.

Well, considering they've only played past the 1st. round once, all the sample sizes in their Post Seasons have about the same.

 

[Confucius]

Do you really think Marner will stay for the exact same salary? A 100K raise?

Absolutely, I’m not Dubas, Mitch won’t leave for somewhere else if we offer him 11 X 8. What other offer could he possibly get 7 X12, he is not leaving for that difference. 7 X 13, might be tempting but nope he’s a fan and will stay much like JT was. I’d be more than shocked if anyonee offered 14, just not happening.

 

[socko]

He constantly flips weak crap on net from way out for his corsi.

Marner does this in the hope it creates a goal. Sometimes it will even go in directly if there is enough traffic and the goalie is having an off night. The thing is Rielly does the exact same thing. So we have 2 guys doing this. And we really only need one.