Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Zybalto]

I'm not the biggest marner fan, but I think we can all agree he is a very good forward.
Too bad he couldn't play center, might have been their next Keon.
Do we know why his production this year was so poor in the post season?

View attachment 879703

I think if you were an outsider, you would say the brutal PP (some of this IS on Marner), loss of McMann, Nylander and Matthews (all top 6 guys) destroying our scoring depth, the fact Swayman was (and still is) one of the keepers of the finals plays a part. Marner and Tavares drew the job of going head to head with Bsotons big Pasta line while Domi and Matthews were matched away to feast on depth (which worked until Matthews got hurt right) McMann being out hurt the plan. Nylander getting hurt made everything patchwork. Matthews getting hurt was just insane. Thank god it gave us a glimpse of the first playoff goaltending since Belfour though (before Woll went down) but wanting to get rid of Marner is a little much after all that. It's all very Leafy actually but when you stand back and look at it, thats insane injury luck combined with the obvious many of us had been predicting (goaltending is gonna sink us).

The bottom 6 were and have been a far bigger issue than Marner although maybe its the top heavy nature thats the problem too.

 

[hotpaws]

It's funny that you and I don't agree with each other on a few things yet we can accept other fans have a different view, while others simply cannot.

and that is what this message board should be

for others it's just about waving the pom poms and believing you have to support/defend the teams every move , to each their own

 

[Zybalto]

So 3 years is a good enough sample size but 8 is not. Time to move on. The party is over.

Still no solutions. Its a pattern in here.

 

[Zybalto]

It's not our job to come up with solutions nor to answer your loaded questions. It's not worth the time. Look back thru the thread. Many alternatives have been offered.

Why should I do that work?

You seem so invested in this you should have the whole plan moving forward at the ready no?

Gimmie just one fix. I've given up on you actually coming up with that other number at this point.

 

[Gabriel426]

Think by July, we will have an idea of where MM will be. No point discussing for now.
Would be quite entertaining to see how MM’s play if he stays with the Leafs esp in playoffs. As that’s will be the defining moment of MM’s Leafs, would it be him celebrating or in tears sitting on the bench or watching the opposing forward skate past him for the winning goal.

 

[QJo]

I think if you were an outsider, you would say the brutal PP (some of this IS on Marner), loss of McMann, Nylander and Matthews (all top 6 guys) destroying our scoring depth, the fact Swayman was (and still is) one of the keepers of the finals plays a part. Marner and Tavares drew the job of going head to head with Bsotons big Pasta line while Domi and Matthews were matched away to feast on depth (which worked until Matthews got hurt right) McMann being out hurt the plan. Nylander getting hurt made everything patchwork. Matthews getting hurt was just insane. Thank god it gave us a glimpse of the first playoff goaltending since Belfour though (before Woll went down) but wanting to get rid of Marner is a little much after all that. It's all very Leafy actually but when you stand back and look at it, thats insane injury luck combined with the obvious many of us had been predicting (goaltending is gonna sink us).

The bottom 6 were and have been a far bigger issue than Marner although maybe its the top heavy nature thats the problem too.

That's all well and good but Marner's got lots of money to be the type to carry us in times of adversity. And with so many guys making top dollar one of them might go down in the playoffs. Then what, you're 11m short. Just like when Tavares went down and then Matthews/Nylander split the series.
I think all that you said while I agree could be used as evidence against the roster construction and could still lead to the conclusion that he's the one to be moved for other assets.

 

[Trapper]

I'm not the biggest marner fan, but I think we can all agree he is a very good forward.
Too bad he couldn't play center, might have been their next Keon.
Do we know why his production this year was so poor in the post season?

View attachment 879703

They are all good players ULF. I don’t think anyone who wants player X traded has says they are bad. As a playoff core, they are bad. As a group of contracts on one team with multiple holes elsewhere they are bad.

As for the stat sheet, how are the point totals for the 4 in games 5,6 and 7 of the playoffs. Also for point totals, how many of their points came in relation to a 7-3 game where everyone got 4 points. Then nobody got any?

 

[rumman]

I'm not the biggest marner fan, but I think we can all agree he is a very good forward.
Too bad he couldn't play center, might have been their next Keon.
Do we know why his production this year was so poor in the post season?

View attachment 879703

I sure hope your not implying if Marner played centre he’d be on Keon’s level as a player?

 

[QJo]

and that is what this message board should be

for others it's just about waving the pom poms and believing you have to support/defend the teams every move , to each their own

This message board should be talking leafs and sharing opinions. The fact that half of some people's posts are gradeschool level insults is the problem not that some people lean towards supporting team decisions and some people lean towards trashing team decisions and a lot more people lean towards supporting or rejecting team decisions on an individual basis.

 

[rumman]

They are all good players ULF. I don’t think anyone who wants player X traded has says they are bad. As a playoff core, they are bad. As a group of contracts on one team with multiple holes elsewhere they are bad.

As for the stat sheet, how are the point totals for the 4 in games 5,6 and 7 of the playoffs. Also for point totals, how many of their points came in relation to a 7-3 game where everyone got 4 points. Then nobody got any?

THIS. The core has been a playoff failure for years, it’s not just Marner, but he’s the easiest to move on from. JT shouldn’t be resigned either, sure he’s still a good player (not at 11 mil) but the culture change isn’t happening without changing the players. I wish they could move on from Marner and JT now, see how things pan out and move others if losing two of them hasn’t made a difference……..

 

[Zybalto]

That's all well and good but Marner's got lots of money to be the type to carry us in times of adversity. And with so many guys making top dollar one of them might go down in the playoffs. Then what, you're 11m short. Just like when Tavares went down and then Matthews/Nylander split the series.
I think all that you said while I agree could be used as evidence against the roster construction and could still lead to the conclusion that he's the one to be moved for other assets.

Oh, thats certainly a solid argument. Spreading the wealth around helps mitigate injury issues. But even in that series, the depth issues hurt us by having certain players in certain situations they probably wouldnt have been and Muzzin going down was especially rough and I didnt see Price letting in floaters from the blueline in game 7 (thanks jack). The same issues are still haunting us and I dont think Marner stood out as the big issue that series either (goaltending differential, depth players getting outscored 2-1, etc..)

Matthews is the only untouchable on this team but a Marner subtraction that doesnt involve us getting a top end goalie AND a decent top 6 at the same time seems insane to me.

 

[Zybalto]

They are all good players ULF. I don’t think anyone who wants player X traded has says they are bad. As a playoff core, they are bad. As a group of contracts on one team with multiple holes elsewhere they are bad.

As for the stat sheet, how are the point totals for the 4 in games 5,6 and 7 of the playoffs. Also for point totals, how many of their points came in relation to a 7-3 game where everyone got 4 points. Then nobody got any?

It doesnt look good for them, although it doesnt look good for other teams too including Tampa the last few years. Tampa had a Vasy though. We dont need a Vasy but I'd settle for a Keumper. We are in the Division and Conference with the best goalies in the league. We need to be able to compete there.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Do me a favor and tell me where you want the $ to go then.

I dont want to get into the same old muslinging circle jerk the trolls are trying to spur on around here. I'm sure you have some solutions.

Solutions is the wrong word. First see if he agrees to waive and if he does, we'll get something back and depending on how that plays our we'll see what the priorities are. But in general terms, we need to improve our D so that's a good place to start.

 

[Gabriel426]

They are all good players ULF. I don’t think anyone who wants player X traded has says they are bad. As a playoff core, they are bad. As a group of contracts on one team with multiple holes elsewhere they are bad.

As for the stat sheet, how are the point totals for the 4 in games 5,6 and 7 of the playoffs. Also for point totals, how many of their points came in relation to a 7-3 game where everyone got 4 points. Then nobody got any?

I think you nailed it.
Can the Leafs or any teams be a contender with three(going to throw next year out) 11.5mil plus forwards in the League?
People kept saying cap is going up….but how many teams even have two 10mil plus players?
Panthers got two, one is a C and the other is a Goalie. Even if you add Tkachuk at 9.5mil, that’s still 29.5mil on three players, that’s still 3.5mil less than AM, MM and JT. If you add that 3.5mil to the average salary of the 12th forward-950, that’s 4.5mil. Which means instead of having someone like Dewar or Edmundson on the Leafs, Leafs could had someone like Toffoli or Tanev on the team.
People kept saying Leafs got 18mil to spend this off season… but they need to either resign or replace Domi and Bert, that’s two forward spots need 9mil. Then three Dmen(Reilly, Timmins, McCabe and Benoit under contract) and a goalie.
Unless Tre got huge bargains for a few players, there are just not enough money to build a proper team.

It doesnt look good for them, although it doesnt look good for other teams too including Tampa the last few years. Tampa had a Vasy though. We dont need a Vasy but I'd settle for a Keumper. We are in the Division and Conference with the best goalies in the league. We need to be able to compete there.

Won’t really use TB as a comparison to the Leafs since as strangely as it sounds, WE won more games and series than TB the past two playoffs, lol.

 

[Zybalto]

Solutions is the wrong word. First see if he agrees to waive and if he does, we'll get something back and depending on how that plays our we'll see what the priorities are. But in general terms, we need to improve our D so that's a good place to start.

Considering our overall D numbers fell this season, not a bad choice but Marner is one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs. Are you talking D as in trying to grab a true 2 way transition D?

Rielly has been pretty good at that lately but grabbing a solid guy eats up most of Marners salary. If you use the rest to put towards goaltending, I can even get on board. The players returning are what is important here.

Hell, lets go big!

To Preds:
Marner
Robertson
1st

To Leafs:
Saros
Carrier
Forsberg


That would be a fun trade heh.

Won’t really use TB as a comparison to the Leafs since as strangely as it sounds, WE won more games and series than TB the past two playoffs, lol.

Oh, Im talking even during their cup runs.

Their stars feasted on teams early but In elimination games, they were largely shut out and guys like Goodrow and Coleman were heroes along with Mr.Clutch Vasy of course.

 

[Gabriel426]

Oh, thats certainly a solid argument. Spreading the wealth around helps mitigate injury issues. But even in that series, the depth issues hurt us by having certain players in certain situations they probably wouldnt have been and Muzzin going down was especially rough and I didnt see Price letting in floaters from the blueline in game 7 (thanks jack). The same issues are still haunting us and I dont think Marner stood out as the big issue that series either (goaltending differential, depth players getting outscored 2-1, etc..)

Matthews is the only untouchable on this team but a Marner subtraction that doesnt involve us getting a top end goalie AND a decent top 6 at the same time seems insane to me.

I think in order to get a top end goalie, a top pairing Dman or a shutdown Dman or a top 6 forward, you need the cap space created by a MM trade.
Now I don’t think a MM trade can get all that and might not even get one. But if Tre use the cap space to sign Marchessault for 7.5mil and someone like Perce at 4mil. That’s already looking like a more balance lineup. Plus the picks and prospects from the MM trade.

 

[ToneDog]

They are all good players ULF. I don’t think anyone who wants player X traded has says they are bad. As a playoff core, they are bad. As a group of contracts on one team with multiple holes elsewhere they are bad.

As for the stat sheet, how are the point totals for the 4 in games 5,6 and 7 of the playoffs. Also for point totals, how many of their points came in relation to a 7-3 game where everyone got 4 points. Then nobody got any?

Problem is they are not greater than the sum of their parts. Not the same story for a lesser group of players like Barkov, Verhaeghe, Bennett, Tkachuk, Montour, Forsling, Lundell, Lomberg, Listerine etc.

 

[ACC1224]

This message board should be talking leafs and sharing opinions. The fact that half of some people's posts are gradeschool level insults is the problem not that some people lean towards supporting team decisions and some people lean towards trashing team decisions and a lot more people lean towards supporting or rejecting team decisions on an individual basis.

Yep, opinions are fine it's the idiocy used by some (most of which have nothing to do with the play on the ice) to arrive at their opinion that's the issue.

 

[thewave]

fixed

the deal on the draft show was we offered to trade down or the Jackets were looking to trade up and we wanted some 2nds

No I am sure there was some deal with PHI or something that was 4 for 7 and 16. There were two really solid players that we could have grabbed. Its been a while though. There was no 2nds in that talk for number 4. It was 2x 1sts 100%

It may have been our 4 + an early 2nd or late 1st we had for 7 and 16 or something similar.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Considering our overall D numbers fell this season, not a bad choice but Marner is one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs. Are you talking D as in trying to grab a true 2 way transition D?

Rielly has been pretty good at that lately but grabbing a solid guy eats up most of Marners salary. If you use the rest to put towards goaltending, I can even get on board. The players returning are what is important here.

Hell, lets go big!

To Preds:
Marner
Robertson
1st

To Leafs:
Saros
Carrier
Forsberg

That would be a fun trade heh.

Whatever. I'm not big on discussing trades because although people love to to so, 99.999% of all proposed trades never happen.

I don't care what stats you can dig up, IMHO Marner wasn't one of the best anythings in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

Oh, thats certainly a solid argument. Spreading the wealth around helps mitigate injury issues. But even in that series, the depth issues hurt us by having certain players in certain situations they probably wouldnt have been and Muzzin going down was especially rough and I didnt see Price letting in floaters from the blueline in game 7 (thanks jack). The same issues are still haunting us and I dont think Marner stood out as the big issue that series either (goaltending differential, depth players getting outscored 2-1, etc..)

Matthews is the only untouchable on this team but a Marner subtraction that doesnt involve us getting a top end goalie AND a decent top 6 at the same time seems insane to me.

We don't know what Marner will get us. It is up to Tre to make the best deal if there is one to be had. With Nylander and Matthews out, Marner clearly was not able to step up and be a difference maker. He is not worth anything near his ask and why he will not be resigned so we need to get something for him rather than use him as rental and have him walk for nothing.

 

[81Leafs50]

Marner will play out his last year. He will go to free agency and he will put all the pressure on the Leafs to either OVERPAY or lose an asset for NOTHING.

this is typical Marner and Ferris (his agent). They dont care how they hurt the team and franchise.

Marner is selfish. His agent always to free agency knowing that is where the most money is. All he cares about is the commission check.

Marner will leave the Leafs as one of the most hated players and will get BOO'd for his entire NHL career in Toronto.

 

[Zybalto]

I think in order to get a top end goalie, a top pairing Dman or a shutdown Dman or a top 6 forward, you need the cap space created by a MM trade.
Now I don’t think a MM trade can get all that and might not even get one. But if Tre use the cap space to sign Marchessault for 7.5mil and someone like Perce at 4mil. That’s already looking like a more balance lineup. Plus the picks and prospects from the MM trade.

Like both those players but the only thing scary there is both those guys are on the decline now through age/miles and I'm not big on handing out what would have to be pretty long contracts to win them.

 

[Nineteen67]

Lets play a little devils advocate from my side of the aisle I guess.

Now Marner has been a matchup guy against Kucherov/Barkov/Pasta the Last 3 years and has put up a PPG (12 highest for a forward in the playoffs) and would be a projected +34 for a season.

Now lets say we traded him and used his cap for something else. Where would you want the money/return to go?

Campbell/Samsonov are up there with the worst goaltending in the playoffs with Samsonov being pulled the last 2 series. Is there a goalie you have your eyes on? That would seem to be of paramount importance.

The Leafs bottom 6 have been outscored very badly 5v5 over this time lending credence to the fact we are too top heavy. Are there any players you think would stop the bleeding on one of the worst bottom 6 in hockey in the playoffs?

Do you think the coaching change will cure the brutal PP in the playoffs? Or is there a piece we can grab?

After all this, how do we replace the fact that Marner is an elite defensive winger who still put up a PPG in the playoffs.

While it still feels like Marner's 10.9 caphit was money well spent compared with a ton of other areas, how does replacing it fix things? Just looking for solutions here.

They have lots of holes. They need two top 4 D, one that’s a legitimate #1, maybe goaltending depending on Woll, a 2 and 3 C, top 6 wing, some bottom 6 F.
The D man is the toughest position to find.

 

[Gabriel426]

Considering our overall D numbers fell this season, not a bad choice but Marner is one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs. Are you talking D as in trying to grab a true 2 way transition D?

Rielly has been pretty good at that lately but grabbing a solid guy eats up most of Marners salary. If you use the rest to put towards goaltending, I can even get on board. The players returning are what is important here.

Hell, lets go big!

To Preds:
Marner
Robertson
1st

To Leafs:
Saros
Carrier
Forsberg


That would be a fun trade heh.



Oh, Im talking even during their cup runs.

Their stars feasted on teams early but In elimination games, they were largely shut out and guys like Goodrow and Coleman were heroes along with Mr.Clutch Vasy of course.

I don’t think MM trade needs certain players to come back our way to make it a hockey trade, it is who to sign with that cap space that matters more.
If a MM must include players that help the Leafs, then MM to the Blues for Parakyo, Binnington and 1st would be a good deal. A shutdown RHD although not as physical and nasty as some might want, but that nastiness will be fill by Team Canada #1 goalie.

Well Goodrow and Coleman were really good against the Habs but Kuch was better that series. Also the Dallas series, it was pretty much all Kuch, Point, Cirelli and Palat(Stammer was injured).
You can’t really use one example that only benefits your point and ignore the rest. Makar and Landy were amazing two Finals ago while Mack and Rantanen were clutch and scored when mattered. Marchessault was on a different planet last year. Top players do perform in the SC.

Like both those players but the only thing scary there is both those guys are on the decline now through age/miles and I'm not big on handing out what would have to be pretty long contracts to win them.

The thing is Leafs is in win now mode and not they are building to win 3 yrs from now.
Also, there are also the futures that generate from the Marner trade that should be able to provide a more solid depth pipeline than now.