Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[ToneDog]

6.9 was pretty pedestrian compared to 11 mill contracts post elc

The summer they signed Tavares, a friend who knew our goalie coach who went on to the Isles, said Nylander would be a problem. I did not think much of it at the time but I now understand what he was saying. Nylander was closer to Ehlers than more than Pastrnak at the time. People forget just how bad he was the first two years of that contract. Fans wanted him out of here to a lesser extent that they want Marner gone now.

 

[arso40]

The summer they signed Tavares, a friend who knew our goalie coach who went on to the Isles, said Nylander would be a problem. I did not think much of it at the time but I now understand what he was saying. Nylander was closer to Ehlers than more than Pastrnak at the time. People forget just how bad he was the first two years of that contract. Fans wanted him out of here to a lesser extent that they want Marner gone now.

He went for the same percentage of the cap a year later once again his 6.9 a year earlier wasn't even close to the 11 mil forwards

 

[francis246]

Can you imagine the team we would have had if another GM was in and Shanahan was out? The good players Dubas walked out the door. Two moves caused this plus contract negotiations.

Keeping Mitch. Signing JT. Contracts.

Fix that we are for sure conference finalists year after year.

Imo they made two mistakes that set them back. Trading back from the Konecny pick in 2016. You had a chance to walk away with Marner and Konecny. You then could have flipped either one for that defenseman.

Then trading Kadri for peanuts. Essentially trading him just to trade him. Two biggest mistakes and poor asset management

 

[Gary Nylund]

Mitch loves Toronto and the Leafs but he loves money more. The same is probably true for the other 3. Rielly is the exception. Hyman and Kadri would have stayed for slightly less money as well IMO.

Good examples. Rielly took less, Hyman wasn't even listening to other teams before it became clear that the Leafs weren't signing him and Kadri (like Rielly) took a more than reasonable contract before and he loved it here so I'm sure he would have done the same again.

Spezza didn’t take 2 million less than market value. Spezza took league minimum when he could of got what? A million in UFA as a fourth line guy? We all know we are talking about UFAs in their prime not guys signing 35+ contracts that are trying to help teams out. I was very specific, you will not find a superstar who resigned for less than what they made coming of their RFA contracts in the cap era. Literally no one has done that

Re. the first bolded - I never said he did.

Re. the second bolded - can you show me where you were this "specific" because I must have missed that and if you didn't say this before, then all you're doing now is shifting the goalposts.

Also, I can't be bothered to dig around for old news but I'm pretty sure that Spezza could have gotten more than 1 million. I also vaguely remember that projections for Giordano were such that he could have gotten much more as a UFA then we paid him, maybe even to the point where he did leave 2 million a year on the table. He was still playing great hockey when he gave us a discount, you can quibble about the exact discount amount but there is no doubt that it was significant!

 

[ToneDog]

He went for the same percentage of the cap a year later once again his 6.9 a year earlier wasn't even close to the 11 mil forwards

Yeah the Willie overpay was nothing compared to the Marner, Matthews and Tavares overpays. I did not believe we would be victims of the cap when many fans were saying it, but we were. It is truly a sad ending unless Tre and Berube can get us out of this mess.

Imo they made two mistakes that set them back. Trading back from the Konecny pick in 2017. You had a chance to walk away with Marner and Konecny. You then could have flipped either one for that defenseman.

Then trading Kadri for peanuts. Essentially trading him just to trade him. Two biggest mistakes and poor asset management

Korshkov over Debrincat. Dermott over Aho. Lily over Thomas. Scott over Swayman. The list goes on and on for this incompetant organization.

 

[francis246]

Too had this isn’t how real life works, no player, especially a star player is going to accept a 2 million pay cut, no matter how much they love a city.

Their agents wouldn’t allow it, the NHLPA would be up their ass and probably their families.

Good examples. Rielly took less, Hyman wasn't even listening to other teams before it became clear that the Leafs weren't signing him and Kadri (like Rielly) took a more than reasonable contract before and he loved it here so I'm sure he would have done the same again.


Re. the first bolded - I never said he did.

Re. the second bolded - can you show me where you were this "specific" because I must have missed that and if you didn't say this before, then all you're doing now is shifting the goalposts.

Also, I can't be bothered to dig around for old news but I'm pretty sure that Spezza could have gotten more than 1 million. I also vaguely remember that projections for Giordano were such that he could have gotten much more as a UFA then we paid him, maybe even to the point where he did leave 2 million a year on the table. He was still playing great hockey when he gave us a discount, you can quibble about the exact discount amount but there is no doubt that it was significant!

Gio is the only one I do agree with left a lot on the table to be here. And I didn’t shift the goal posts at all at the beginning of the argument I literally said star player. Others started talking about 35+ contracts, not star players and shifting the goal posts, not me.

I quoted my original post up top

 

[ruaware41]

He went for the same percentage of the cap a year later once again his 6.9 a year earlier wasn't even close to the 11 mil forwards

You're a good poster but I feel like your biases are running amok a little with this. As someone who also really likes Nylander he was worth $6m at the time based on his play and sat out moping until he got the extra 900k and got the victory on Dubs and set the precedent for the other 2 that the TML gm is a bitch that you can dunk on. He set the precedent. In hindsight did he make his contract worth it? Yes.

 

[ToneDog]

You're a good poster but I feel like your biases are running amok a little with this. As someone who also really likes Nylander he was worth $6m at the time based on his play and sat out moping until he got the extra 900k and got the victory on Dubs and set the precedent for the other 2 that the TML gm is a bitch that you can dunk on. He set the precedent. In hindsight did he make his contract worth it? Yes.

Let's not forget Dubas paying him for the 2 months he sat out and the waste of time he was because he cam in out of shape. The AAV was 6.9m but IIRC he was paid $7.5m.

5 years later Tre repeats the Dubas mistakes with Matty and Willie.

 

[Trapper]

Let's not forget Dubas paying him for the 2 months he sat out and the waste of time he was because he cam in out of shape. The AAV was 6.9m but IIRC he was paid $7.5m.

5 years later Tre repeats the Dubas mistakes with Matty and Willie.

Yes and I worry he’s going to do it one more time.
Marner will take him to the cleaners if given the chance.

 

[ACC1224]

The extra sad part is just how many fans they made believe this (and still do with the core).
OMG you can’t trade player X from the core, we might lose.

I don't think there are very many at all that think that.
You always get a few of course but it definitely seems like there are more crazies on the other side of that.

 

[ToneDog]

Yes and I worry he’s going to do it one more time.
Marner will take him to the cleaners if given the chance.

After the presser I do not think they can or will roll it back. If they do, Pelley will lose whatever credibility he has and Shanny whatever little he has left. Tre will have to stand up and spin why they did not move Marner like he did for Nylander. It will not fly this year IMO.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Gio is the only one I do agree with left a lot on the table to be here. And I didn’t shift the goal posts at all at the beginning of the argument I literally said star player. Others started talking about 35+ contracts, not star players and shifting the goal posts, not me.

I quoted my original post up top

Thanks for providing the original quote. So you started with:

"no player, especially a star player"

which you later changed to

"I was very specific, you will not find a superstar who resigned for less than what they made coming of their RFA contracts in the cap era."

That is quite a bit different, at the very least it's different enough that you shouldn't be using words like "literally" and phrases like "I was quite specific".

At any rate, if you agree that Giordano left "a ton" on the table then I think we can put this discussion to bed. Gio took a big discount to play here, he's not the first player in the NHL who has taken a big discount so if Marner (or any other player) wanted to do the same, they can do so regardless of whether their agents like it or not and without worrying about the NHLPA being "up their ass" as you said earlier.

 

[Arzak]

It should be clear by now, Mitch should sign @7M as RFA or the Leafs should let him sign his imaginary offer sheet and drown in picks.
But no, we were scared that homeboy who never left Toronto would play in the Swiss league for $100K a year.... the weakest bluff in NHL history, but enough for Kyle.


He is not worth $11M and unless the cap doubles next year, he never will be.

Not to mention, his scared demeanour is detrimental to the whole team at any price.

 

[thewave]

Yeah the Willie overpay was nothing compared to the Marner, Matthews and Tavares overpays. I did not believe we would be victims of the cap when many fans were saying it, but we were. It is truly a sad ending unless Tre and Berube can get us out of this mess.


Korshkov over Debrincat. Dermott over Aho. Lily over Thomas. Scott over Swayman. The list goes on and on for this incompetant organization.

100% tons of terrible choices. Many of the selections could have been made with Kenzies compiled draft rankings. Fire the scouting staff. Just go off his list and pick off that. Nope gotta galaxy brain everything in Toronto. Cant look like we are doing nothing with all those managers and scouts. Need to be unique. Same with coaching, they never do what craploads of people suggest here. Almost as if they monitor HFBoards etc and cant be made to look like they dont earn their salary.

 

[francis246]

Thanks for providing the original quote. So you started with:

"no player, especially a star player"

which you later changed to

"I was very specific, you will not find a superstar who resigned for less than what they made coming of their RFA contracts in the cap era."

That is quite a bit different, at the very least it's different enough that you shouldn't be using words like "literally" and phrases like "I was quite specific".

At any rate, if you agree that Giordano left "a ton" on the table then I think we can put this discussion to bed. Gio took a big discount to play here, he's not the first player in the NHL who has taken a big discount so if Marner (or any other player) wanted to do the same, they can do so regardless of whether their agents like it or not and without worrying about the NHLPA being "up their ass" as you said earlier.

If you wanna pick a part a few words and nit pick phrasing, go ahead man. I haven’t changed anything. We are talking about Marner who is a star going into his contract that overlaps with UFA. Not a guy who has already made money on the back end of his career. Obviously when making comparisons I’m talking about players who are in the same situation or were in Marner’s situation previously. They didn’t go backwards from their previous contract. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Point, Aho. Whoever else you wanna point out, on their current extensions they didn’t extend for less than money than what they were making prior to the extension. Which is what some people are asking Marner to do and that’s never going to happen.

 

[Gabriel426]

If you wanna pick a part a few words and not pick phrasing, go ahead man. I haven’t changed anything. We are talking about Marner who is a star going into his contract that overlaps with UFA. Not a guy who has already made money on the back end of his career. Obviously when making comparisons I’m talking about players who are in the same situation or were in Marner’s situation previously. They didn’t go backwards from their previous contract. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Point, Aho. Whoever else you wanna point out, on their current extensions they didn’t extend for less than money than what they were making prior to the extension. Which is what some people are asking Marner to do and that’s never going to happen.

Nuge did but I do agree with you as I don’t think players will take less when they hit UFA status unless they flat out sucks

 

[Nineteen67]

It should be clear by now, Mitch should sign @7M as RFA or the Leafs should let him sign his imaginary offer sheet and drown in picks.
But no, we were scared that homeboy who never left Toronto would play in the Swiss league for $100K a year.... the weakest bluff in NHL history, but enough for Kyle.


He is not worth $11M and unless the cap doubles next year, he never will be.

Not to mention, his scared demeanour is detrimental to the whole team at any price.

You offer him a little closer to the 4 pick compensation, hoping he accepts an offer sheet and you get the picks. If he doesn’t accept the offer sheet, then offer the the 7 million.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If you wanna pick a part a few words and nit pick phrasing, go ahead man. I haven’t changed anything. We are talking about Marner who is a star going into his contract that overlaps with UFA. Not a guy who has already made money on the back end of his career. Obviously when making comparisons I’m talking about players who are in the same situation or were in Marner’s situation previously. They didn’t go backwards from their previous contract. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Point, Aho. Whoever else you wanna point out, on their current extensions they didn’t extend for less than money than what they were making prior to the extension. Which is what some people are asking Marner to do and that’s never going to happen.

You're the one who said "specific" and "literally", if you don't mean that then don't say it.

OK then, let's keep it general - we agree that players have taken discounts in the past, therefore if Marner wants to take a discount he can do so and he doesn't have to worry about what his agent thinks or worry about the NHLPA being on his and his families ass like you said earlier.

I don't think anyone is "asking" Marner to do anything. Some people are saying that we shouldn't sign him unless he takes less, but I don't think anyone expects him to actually do so. I myself expect Marner will take every last penny he can possibly take, just like last time.

 

[thewave]

You offer him a little closer to the 4 pick compensation, hoping he accepts an offer sheet and you get the picks. If he doesn’t accept the offer sheet, then offer the the 7 million.

9m would have been the offer. Thats to ensure he has to go over the 10m mark for 4x 1sts to make it make sense. We know he would get 1m in endorsements here roughly and would express that US markets don't know him. He would also lean on the tax rate of the team state he is selecting.

Basically 9m take it or leave it and likely he takes it. If someone blows their brains out and offers 10m+ the 4x 1sts come here.

Anonymous interweb forum posters get that. George Brown boy didnt.

 

[francis246]

You're the one who said "specific" and "literally", if you don't mean that then don't say it.

OK then, let's keep it general - we agree that players have taken discounts in the past, therefore if Marner wants to take a discount he can do so and he doesn't have to worry about what his agent thinks or worry about the NHLPA being on his and his families ass like you said earlier.

I don't think anyone is "asking" Marner to do anything. Some people are saying that we shouldn't sign him unless he takes less, but I don't think anyone expects him to actually do so. I myself expect Marner will take every last penny he can possibly take, just like last time.

And I hate when you say “I don’t think any one” blah blah blah. You say that in this thread everyday when people are making posts that say exactly what you are claiming “i don’t think any one said”. There have been posts saying Marner should take 9 mill, I’ve even seen a bunch of post on main boards also suggesting that he won’t even be signed for 12 mill. And that’s why people get pissed off talking to you. We have seen those posts in this thread, stop telling us what you don’t think.

 

[francis246]

Nuge did but I do agree with you as I don’t think players will take less when they hit UFA status unless they flat out sucks

Thank you for at least being logical and seeing what my main argument was. There are people on here that love to try and nitpick things and stray away from the main point.

You’re going to be very hard pressed to find a guy in their prime do that. Nuge is a good example of one guy who probably did. I think Klingberg is possibly another but he overplayed his hand and then found out the market wasn’t willing to give him what he thought he was worth. So I guess there’s a possibility that could happen to Marner as well.

 

[leafs in five]

Nylander was closer to Ehlers than more than Pastrnak at the time. People forget just how bad he was the first two years of that contract. Fans wanted him out of here to a lesser extent that they want Marner gone now.

I'm glad those fans didn't get their way on Nylander

 

[thewave]

I'm glad those fans didn't get their way on Nylander

Not me. I always liked Nylander and figured he would put it together. Mind you I thought we overpaid him 500k. He was right in the end pricing himself around 7m. Marner on the other hand fought to overpay himself 2.5m or so over his value and here we are wanting to launch him to the moon.

 

[francis246]

I'm glad those fans didn't get their way on Nylander

And I’m not sure people are gonna get their wish with Marner. Even though I truly believe he should be the guy moved. I see this management group trying to move one of Tavares and Rielly first before Marner. I just don’t believe for a second Matthews, Nylander or Marner will ever be moved.

The only thing we can hope for is that Tavares made some friends at the world championships, maybe he’s more open to a move and that teams were impressed with his play at the world championships.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And I hate when you say “I don’t think any one” blah blah blah. You say that in this thread everyday when people are making posts that say exactly what you say “i don’t think any one said”. There have been posts saying Marner should take 9 mill, I’ve even seen a bunch of post on main boards also suggesting that he won’t even be signed for 12 mill. And that’s why people get pissed off talking to you. We have seen those posts in this thread, stop telling us what you don’t think.

I don't even know what you're talking about any more but if my posts upset you then feel free to not read them. You're the one who used words like "literally" and "specific" so you shouldn't have an issue with me holding people to what they say.

As far as what people on the main boards are saying, who cares? And why is the suggestion that he won't be signed for 12 million so outrageous? I don't think he's guaranteed to get that much so what's the problem?