Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[QJo]

Why? So he can make 9 million and still suck in the playoffs? People make no sense.

League minimum he would still suck in the playoffs so even at that price I guess...

 

[WTFMAN99]

There are a lot of moving parts in this.

1. Is Marner willing to buy into Berube's role for him and try something new? Ex. Playing left half wall versus being on the point

2. What are we being offered in a trade for him? This will change all the way up until June/July, and is he willing to waive for the teams offering the best trade packages?

3. What is he asking for on a contract extension?

4. Can I trade John Tavares and/or Morgan Rielly? If yes, maybe I don't need to trade Marner, or the urgency to do so is less.

 

[Kazparov]

Why is he having 1 on 1 meetings with the new coach if his plan is to find a new destination this summer? It looks like the plan is to let him play out his contract year under Berube and then see what happens.

Likely because coach wants to meet with all the players to get a feel for them and see what they think about the team and what happened last year. Coach is doing his job which isn't trading players.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

League minimum he would still suck in the playoffs so even at that price I guess...

That's the problem with Marner. The delta between Marner's regular season performance and Marner's playoff performance is huge. So how do you determine his real market value?

The same goes for Matthews and Nylander BTW, but we're stuck with them for 4 and 8 years respectively.

 

[ToneDog]

There's always room for maturity and growth. One hopes that Mitch has been able to reflect on the past 6 years, and his relationship with the marketplace, and understand that multiple mistakes were made along the way to lead us here.

.....I'm just not sure he is capable of that sort of reflection, though. Obviously don't know him personally, but he does publicly come across very defensively & slightly arrogant, which are 2 traits you simply cannot have when you're being swallowed up.

I've never doubted his desire to win. I have major concerns about his/his team's ability to block out the noise here

So they have paid a player who needs more maturing and growth, $58m and has $8m owing and you think it is a good idea to keep him hoping he finds it. The guy is a one dimensional player, who when is neutralized has nothing else to contribute. He cannot dig pucks, he does not hit anybody, he does not battle in front of the net, and he gives up the puck too often. Get something for him before he walks for nothing after he shits the bed again next April.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

If we were drafting a team to play in the playoffs, how many people here I wonder would take Marner over Hyman?

I'm taking Hyman, that's for damn sure. When it comes to playoff hockey, Hyman's a player and Marner's a wuss, simple as that.

Hyman has more playoff goals this year than in Marner's entire career so it's not particularly close for me either

 

[QJo]

That's the problem with Marner. The delta between Marner's regular season performance and Marner's playoff performance is huge. So how do you determine his real market value?

The same goes for Matthews and Nylander BTW, but we're stuck with them for 4 and 8 years respectively.

I think he is overpaid and will be more so on his next contract but a 9m winger doing all he does even just in the regular season likely makes a difference in standings. Home ice? Playoffs? Head to heads against divisional rivals? Any team that isn't run by emotions would be thrilled to have him at 9m.
The only reason to not want him at 9 is because you are frustrated with a recent loss not because he won't bring 9m value going forward.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I think he is overpaid and will be more so on his next contract but a 9m winger doing all he does even just in the regular season likely makes a difference in standings. Home ice? Playoffs? Head to heads against divisional rivals? Any team that isn't run by emotions would be thrilled to have him at 9m.
The only reason to not want him at 9 is because you are frustrated with a recent loss not because he won't bring 9m value going forward.

Wrong. As usual, the Marner slappies continue to focus on the regular season and not the playoffs. Why am I not surprised?

 

[WTFMAN99]

Hyman has more playoff goals this year than in Marner's entire career so it's not particularly close for me either

Marner will help get you to the playoffs but I don't know how helpful he will be in winning a Stanley Cup.

He seems to wilt in the big moment, you need to identify guys that are either consistent in what they give you in both the regular season and post season or can elevate more in the post-season.

 

[ACC1224]

Hyman has more playoff goals this year than in Marner's entire career so it's not particularly close for me either

It's almost like they play different roles on different teams.

 

[QJo]

Wrong. As usual, the Marner slappies continue to focus on the regular season and not the playoffs. Why am I not surprised?

Not sure what a slappy is but I'm leaning towards them moving Marner. You should work on your manners. There's no need to be rude.

 

[DarkKnight]

As far as finding a role under Berube, I suspect both sides would be amenable there. Despite the lame bullshit here, Marner is a good team player and Berube has a history of asking guys to change their roles, Steen a prime example. Buy in is apparently one of his strengths and he would love a Marner on his team. It isn’t about that.

It’s the contract moving forward. With JT off the books we actually can afford to keep Mitch, but at what number? It seems counter intuitive, but if he took a reasonable number, we could one make it work and two he suddenly presents himself as taking a team friendly deal. The problem here again, the Nylander contract is a joke over payment, and it’s hard to se Marner taking less. So this is where the trade talk comes in, plus an element of changing the culture within.

I’d say it’s 50/50 he is in a Leafs uniform to start the season.

 

[Tarmore]

If we were drafting a team to play in the playoffs, how many people here I wonder would take Marner over Hyman?

I'm taking Hyman, that's for damn sure. When it comes to playoff hockey, Hyman's a player and Marner's a wuss, simple as that.

So the same Hyman who scored 13 points in 32 playoff games for the Leafs?

He figured it out when he want to Edmonton but Marner will never get it? Ever?

 

[WTFMAN99]

As far as finding a role under Berube, I suspect both sides would be amenable there. Despite the lame bullshit here, Marner is a good team player and Berube has a history of asking guys to change their roles, Steen a prime example. Buy in is apparently one of his strengths and he would love a Marner on his team. It isn’t about that.

It’s the contract moving forward. With JT off the books we actually can afford to keep Mitch, but at what number? It seems counter intuitive, but if he took a reasonable number, we could one make it work and two he suddenly presents himself as taking a team friendly deal. The problem here again, the Nylander contract is a joke over payment, and it’s hard to se Marner taking less. So this is where the trade talk comes in, plus an element of changing the culture within.

I’d say it’s 50/50 he is in a Leafs uniform to start the season.

Matthews at 11.6
Nylander at 6.9
Marner at 10.9
JT at 11

= 40-41M range

= 10.25M per player for 4 players

Only 1 team has won a cup with 1 roster player making 10M, the minimum possible for double digit millions

Matthews at 13.25M
Nylander att 11.5
Marner at 11.5M

= 36.25

= 12.08M per player

Even if JT were to take 4-5M, that average drops of course from the 12.08 but all these guys are getting older too, some of those years are going to clearly suck.

I don't see this as a recipe for success, I know the salary cap is going up but having 2 wingers making over 10 million just doesn't seem like smart idea. The other issue is it's not like they're Kucherov or Leon and they dominate in the post-season.

 

[ToneDog]

So the same Hyman who scored 13 points in 32 playoff games for the Leafs?

He figured it out when he want to Edmonton but Marner will never get it? Ever?

Comparing Hyman and Marner are like comparing apples and oranges. Marner is a playmaker but when you compare him to a playmaker like McDavid, it is night and day. Watching the Rangers series, I get Marner vibes from Panarin but Panarin can score.

How long do you wait for a guy you have paid over $60m to and do you want to pay him more tens of millions and keep waiting? f*** no.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

It's almost like they play different roles on different teams.

I wonder if in an alternate universe where Hyman was a Leafs core player and Marner was in Edmonton with McDavid and Draisaitl would Marner have much better numbers and more series wins? My imagination tells me yes.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

It's almost like they play different roles on different teams.

Then we're vastly overpaying for his role

 

[ACC1224]

Then we're vastly overpaying for his role

Yes if you feel his role is to be a goal scorer.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Hyman has more playoff goals this year than in Marner's entire career so it's not particularly close for me either

One thing Shanahan was right about - goals are scored differently in the playoffs. I don't even need any statistical analysis to compare Marner and Hyman, just watch them play for a few minutes and you know all you need to know. Regular season, Marner>>>Hyman but playoffs it's the other way around. And when you factor in the cap hits of the two, it's obvious that we would have been so much better off trading Marner to free up cap space and spending some of that on Hyman instead.

So the same Hyman who scored 13 points in 32 playoff games for the Leafs?

He figured it out when he want to Edmonton but Marner will never get it? Ever?

Hyman played many of those playoff games while badly injured. As far as Marner ever getting it, considering he hasn't got it yet and he's more than half way through his prime, signing him to a long term extension for ~100 million dollars which is what it's likely to cost seems like pure insanity to me.

Yes if you feel his role is to be a goal scorer.

His role is the same as only other player - do your job and play like you're worth your cap hit.

 

[Tak7]

So they have paid a player who needs more maturing and growth, $58m and has $8m owing and you think it is a good idea to keep him hoping he finds it. The guy is a one dimensional player, who when is neutralized has nothing else to contribute.

I do?

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Yes if you feel his role is to be a goal scorer.

He absolutely should be and it must be expected of him. What 11M winger isn't expected to fill the net at key times and produce offense?

 

[Darcy Tucker]

This won't go ever well but why not.

Here are Hymans recent numbers

Here are Marner's recent numbers

Hymans only been over a point per game once in the last six seasons while Marner's point per game numbers kind of justify his large contract demands. Hyman played with world class players in all 6 of those seasons so maybe his hot playoffs this year on a good team is kind of inflating his aura.

In 76 playoff games Hyman has 56 points and +8.

In 57 playoff games Marner has 50 points and +10.

We all know Hyman goes to the net hard and bangs in greasy goals. But up until this year his numbers all round were pretty mid. He's also 31 while Marner is 27. In a vacuum , say an expansion team could sign either player, with no McJesus to play with I am not taking Hyman to build my franchise with over Marner. Hyman has had a great year but it could just be an aberration. Have a great day Marner fans.

 

[Arzak]

It's almost like they play different roles on different teams.

Could you tell me about Mitchs role these playoffs?

He is forward getting mostly O-zone starts making $11M. "Maybe he has a different role" F*ck me, he makes the best coffee? The spin is strong with you my friend.

Tell us more about the role of $11M Winger that's getting O-zone starts the whole playoffs. . . Unless his role is to cry on the bench (and I'm not saying it's worth $11M), he is out there to score.

"Mitch would outscore Hyman, but but but but..."

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

He absolutely should be and it must be expected of him. What 11M winger isn't expected to fill the net at key times and produce offense?

It's also exasperating to say the guy who quarter backs the PP and is known for point production shouldn't be burdened with expectations to score goals if he wants 100M.

 

[Nineteen67]

Then we're vastly overpaying for his role

I always thought Kerfoot was over paid in that role and he was little bit better than Mitchy.