Mitch Marner Offseason Continued

[CabanaBoy5]

Unquestionably patience is required, but only with the majority of the core. Our patience with the petulent, immature $11M player named Marner has run out. Nobody strung out their hometown team to the point he did without really having accomplished anything of consequence. So, if you're going to want to be paid based on potential, then you better put out when it matters and things get difficult. It's one thing to have skill when things are loose and you have room, another to continually flip the puck out because you're afraid of being hit and feel hurried. With Marner, it's all about himself, not team, and you don't win with those kinds of guys occupying so much of your cap space.

 

[myleafs]

Dubas did a great job putting together the roster this past year.

You said we didn't have much in the pipeline. That's false.

Sounds like something that could hurt his linemates. Yet you're still lamenting the possibility of not re-signing him into his mid-30s...

He did not play at his pay grade, and really, his contract is irrelevant at that point. Expectations for him were much higher, and yet he escapes criticism. Because this isn't about properly evaluating how each player played. This is about people desperately searching for reasons to pile on Marner because of their misguided issues with his contract.

Good. Most teams should not be paying significant amounts for goalies. None of this changes the fact that Campbell played well. Our goalie is on a great contract. Oh no! The horror!

Dubas didn't create any cap hell. He's the one effectively navigating it.

Is this just playing devils advocate or just arguing for the sake of arguing or do you really believe everything you are saying? Or are you related to said player and or management? I really cant tell.

 

[Stephen]

Nobody really compares against that team.

Makes you wonder what the Leafs actual goals have been over the past 2-3 years if we are admitting that we can’t compare and compete against Tampa. Are we spending this money on the core and mortgaging future assets to win a playoff round, or build a real championship team?

 

[myleafs]

Not a chance; especially being swept after a season like that. People would be saying that they've had long enough to prove it, the core is faulty, the team is soft, the team doesn't care, they don't have what it takes to go all the way, etc. The same people advocating for trading Marner would be wanting to blow it up. As we have seen time and time again, that would be a horrible decision.

Reading peoples minds and knowing what they would say....interesting talent. Fwiw if we had the same success that Tampa did and then shit the bed one year there is no way I would want to blow it up...if they did it again the next year and the next after that then sure maybe. So in my case you are way off base with your assessment.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh right on. Now that it's possible that Hyman won't be returning to the Leafs - is he now a new target for you to shit on and berate?

I didn't berate Hyman at all. I literally said that I love Hyman. The point was to show the inconsistency at play here. At least by the same incomplete metrics people are using to dump on Marner, Hyman fell well below his expectations and given role on the team in the exact same playoffs being referenced, yet there is massive contrast in how both are being discussed. Because this isn't about properly evaluating these players, how they played, and identifying what actually happened and the issues that need to be fixed. A large portion of this thread has just been people making wild exaggerations and ignoring context to dump on a player they already disliked, and suggest things that would do nothing but set this team back. And for the record, I was fine leaving people to get all their ranting out - you're the one that chose to tag me into this discussion.

 

[Zarley Zalapski]

And the year before that, they didn't even make the playoffs. Fact is they hadn't won anything with their competitive team in a long time, and had just experienced one of the worst losses of the modern era. You know as well as I do that beating New Jersey the year before would not have been consolation. You know as well as I do that the Leafs would be torn apart after that Columbus series, if it had happened to us. You know as well as I do that many of the people advocating for trading Marner would have done the same type of thing with a player like Point. That clearly would have been a horrible decision, just like trading Marner would be.

Why do you keep saying the Lightning hadn't won anything prior to the Columbus sweep? Tampa Bay reached the conference finals in 3 of the 4 seasons prior and had 1 Stanley Cup finals appearance. You don't blow up a young team that has proven capable of deep playoff runs just because of 1 disastrous 1st round exit.
There's an enormous difference between failing to win the Stanley Cup every year and failing to advance past the first round.
Also, you should probably stop comparing Marner's playoff performance with Brayden Point's. It's just an awful take that gets worse with each passing day. Just some friendly advice.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

 

[Metroid]

This TB comparison has gone on for awhile now and I dont understand it.

They currently have who many would consider the best defenceman in the league.
They currently have who many would consider the best goalie in the league.
They currently have who many would consider the best winger in the league.

We cant come anywhere close to saying that and the first two positions are extremely important especially in the playoffs.

They also get total buy-in from all their players, finish their checks consistently and dont take shortcuts to the puck.

We might be similar in that both teams have a nice amount of skill but the comparison ends pretty quickly after that.

In hindsight, maybe we should have drafted a high end D when we had those top picks... obviously you take Matthews.. I forget if there was any good D in the Nylander draft (not saying hes bad pick) maybe trading down from the Marner pick to grab Prov would have been good, I know there was a plan to move down depending on who Arizona took, but I forget that whole story.

 

[egd27]

There's this weird idea from some leaf fans that the secret to a cup is "patience". If we just "wait around" long enough, a cup will eventually fall into our laps.

People can point to examples where "patience" DID pay off (like Tampa)... but it's ignored that for every Tampa, there's countless teams that correctly gave up on an underproducing core... or even held onto an underproducing core for far longer than they should have.

This team won ZERO playoff rounds... and we still gave it another year after losing to (lol) Columbus in round one. Dekes is acting like we'd be LESS patient if the core had already won FOUR playoff rounds. It's an insane argument.

The first part stems from the weird idea that Keefe and The Kid know what they are doing.

I'm not sure how Tampa needed patience with an underproducing core. Prior to being swept by CBJ, they had been to at least the Final Four for 3 or the previous 4 seasons. If that's an underperforming core, then we need a new word to describe the Leafs core.

 

[IPS]

I didn't berate Hyman at all. I literally said that I love Hyman. The point was to show the inconsistency at play here. At least by the same incomplete metrics people are using to dump on Marner, Hyman fell well below his expectations and given role on the team in the exact same playoffs being referenced, yet there is massive contrast in how both are being discussed. Because this isn't about properly evaluating these players, how they played, and identifying what actually happened and the issues that need to be fixed. A large portion of this thread has just been people making wild exaggerations and ignoring context to dump on a player they already disliked, and suggest things that would do nothing but set this team back. And for the record, I was fine leaving people to get all their ranting out - you're the one that chose to tag me into this discussion.

Then why did you even bring up Hyman? He's the complimentary piece of the line - his offense only goes as far as the players he retrieves the puck for. This isn't even taking into account that he was obviously playing injured.

"Hyman fell well below his expectations"

You mean relative to the $2.25M paycheck he gets? What exactly are Hyman's expectations when 34 and 16 aren't accomplishing anything?

 

[hamzarocks]

The first part stems from the weird idea that Keefe and The Kid know what they are doing.

I'm not sure how Tampa needed patience with an underproducing core. Prior to being swept by CBJ, they had been to at least the Final Four for 3 or the previous 4 seasons. If that's an underperforming core, then we need a new word to describe the Leafs core.

Man I sometimes forget how young Dubas actually is. He's only 35, meaning he was 32 when he got the GM Job. Dude is only like 10 years old old our core forwards, that's pretty crazy. We gave him the role at such a young age with him having no experience or reputation amongst the players/agents.

Keefe himself is only 40 which is really young.

Are the leafs the youngest Coach-GM duo in the league. We have a total of 5 combined seasons of experience with these two(3 for dubas and 2ish for Keefe). Wish we could get someone in upper management who had high end experience and success in the past. Get rid of Shanny and bring in a no-nonsense type of President to steer the ship back on target

 

[egd27]

Wish we could get someone in upper management who had high end experience and success in the past

You mean management that could take an organization from being a perennial laughing stock to an up and coming franchise that could hang with President's Trophy winners? Yea, if only we could find people like that.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Mitch’s contract is the greatest heist in Toronto history.

 

[Stephen]

Man I sometimes forget how young Dubas actually is. He's only 35, meaning he was 32 when he got the GM Job. Dude is only like 10 years old old our core forwards, that's pretty crazy. We gave him the role at such a young age with him having no experience or reputation amongst the players/agents.

Keefe himself is only 40 which is really young.

Are the leafs the youngest Coach-GM duo in the league. We have a total of 5 combined seasons of experience with these two(3 for dubas and 2ish for Keefe). Wish we could get someone in upper management who had high end experience and success in the past. Get rid of Shanny and bring in a no-nonsense type of President to steer the ship back on target

I’m personally in the same age group, so professionally I understand where Dubas and Keefe are at and how they want to reinvent the wheel and put their own stamp on things and are eschewing the old way of going about business. I get it.

But it’s so damn frustrating following along as a fan and have to listen to them talk about all these learning experiences and evolving constantly. Like they’re the smartest guys in the room and yet still learning the basics and wisdom of the game.

 

[Havoc]

If Marner isn't already going eye of the tiger Rocky Balboa on his training after two straight years of being a boy among men, I dont think he ever will.

Its all in this guys hands now. The skill he was born with took him this far but I believe it has flat lined now. At least as far as playoffs are concerned. If he's not willing to take the next step now and put in work, it's time to cash in on his elite trade value. He's naturally weak so he'll remain a boy among men even into his 30s if he doesn't do anything about it from now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I see your point about patience. I don't think reactionary changes are good. On the other hand you can't keep running back the same core with minor tweaks and expect new results. Not when they have yet to earn a playoff series win 5 years AFTER the rebuild.

5 years after being the last place team in the league*, and sport, and especially hockey, is dominated by new results from what I guess you would classify as "minor tweaks". And that's before even factoring in that much of the "old results" are from a team that was quite different from what we have now. People also don't seem to realize that results occur due to so much more than just what you have, and all of our results have been so incredibly close.

If Tavares doesn't get injured, or if we didn't challenge the goal, or if Marner's flip of the puck is one inch lower, or if our goals are more evenly distributed throughout the series, or we score in one of the overtimes during those huge pushes, and we move on, does that change anything about our chances in future years? No. Truthfully, we haven't even really got to see this team, as built, in the playoffs. We had a new starting goalie and and a top defense for the first time this year, but we didn't have Tavares for essentially the entire series. So I'm not really sure how people are concluding that this "formula" doesn't work.

Are there concerns about the last couple years? Yes.
Are there things that need to be worked on? Yes.
Is the solution trading away one of the best players in the league after their age 23 season? No.

If we do that, we'll get to enjoy watching him lead another team to a cup.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There's an enormous difference between failing to win the Stanley Cup every year and failing to advance past the first round.

Not nearly as much as people seem to think, especially when they're ignoring the context involved.

Then why did you even bring up Hyman?

I didn't. You quoted part of a response to another individual who brought up Hyman. I already explained his relevance to the point being made.

 

[Gabriel426]

Point is a good player but Marner on Tampa would rip an opposing teams face off.

Marner still can’t shoot. You are a better poster than that.

 

[egd27]

Other than Binnington, who are the other 2 ??

Murray won in 2016 and 2017. Binnington won in 2019.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why are people against the idea of trading Marner?
What if the return package is Mack? Or the players coming back is Aho.
I think if Marner or Willie or even AM is traded, Leafs will be getting a great player or two in return. Now would the Leafs win the Cup bc of that, not sure but the current team ain’t winning the Cup either.

 

[Gabriel426]

If Marner isn't already going eye of the tiger Rocky Balboa on his training after two straight years of being a boy among men, I dont think he ever will.

Its all in this guys hands now. The skill he was born with took him this far but I believe it has flat lined now. At least as far as playoffs are concerned. If he's not willing to take the next step now and put in work, it's time to cash in on his elite trade value. He's naturally weak so he'll remain a boy among men even into his 30s if he doesn't do anything about it from now.

He is more likely working on skill shots with PS5 than actually putting in the work for shooting.
He is Shaq with his free throws practice in the off season, the diff is Shaq dominated in other areas and while Marner can’t.

 

[egd27]

The cap was going to be somewhere between 84.0m (+2.5m) and 88.2m (+6.7m) last year, prior to many of the factors that were going to be pushing it upward in the coming years.

So we're adding "expected cap" to "expected goals" and "expected wins" in our list of rationalizations as to why this team is failing to live up to it's "expected results"?

 

[ToneDog]

He is saying Murray x2 but IIRC a stiff started the playoffs for the Pens in 2017, Fleury carried the mail when he returned from injury and Murray finished it off after Fleury was lit up.

Soup may be enough but I am not seeing any SC goalies giving up that weak game #7 first goal or swimming for his life only to see the puck tapped in behind him. Yeah let's wait to see who replaces Andy.

 

[Gabriel426]

This thread is alive the moment Dekes comes back

 

[hamzarocks]

He is more likely working on skill shots with PS5 than actually putting in the work for shooting.
He is Shaq with his free throws practice in the off season, the diff is Shaq dominated in other areas and while Marner can’t.

Man if this actually is the case(obviously not him playing PS5 lol as his training, but him being once again lazy and unfocused in his off-season training) I seriously question if marner has a competitive bone in his body.

Mitch Marner is synonymous with loser right now in the hockey world. He's been meme'd/shitted on by both his teams and outside fans alike.

Marners the NHL Pandemic P at the moment. Paul George went put and refined himself and came back dominant. He's been incredible for the clippers this year.

Marner seriously has to be the most unmotivated player ever if he's not writing down the major people doubting him and dedicating this summer to simply become a dominant playoff player for next year.

He has to have pride and show that he's not a weak willed person. I really am pissed at him but I want to see him come and ligntthe hockey world on Fire next year in both the regular and playoffs.


If he's not motivated to pull a kobe and lose himself in the sport after these past 2 years of humiliation then I simply don't know what can make him motivated. His legacy is on the line. It's do or die for MM16 next year. I really hope he has the fire inside of him that legends need to overcome humiliating failures and turn them to a source of motivation onto a path of greatness