Mitch Marner Offseason Continued

[Dekes For Days]

Had they bridged him do you really think he gets as good or better deal than he has now?

Absolutely. Especially if the unforeseen global pandemic didn't mess with the cap.

So many people using Tampa's loss to CBJ are forgetting that they were missing Kutcherov (suspension) and Hedman (injury).

Kucherov only missed one game, and Hedman missed two. I guess Toronto wasn't missing anybody important, eh?

 

[Racer88]

Not sure what this, or anything else you wrote, has to do with anything I said. I already said Point has done quite well in his 2020/2021 playoffs, though many of your bullet points are very misleading. Good thing Tampa didn't throw Point away after 2019, like many here are suggesting for Marner.

Unfortunately it’s not just 1 season’s playoffs. This has been repeated for 3 years.
I think there is fair evidence he either doesn’t care or is delusional about his performance. We have all heard his presser where he said that he wasn’t going to change anything in his preparation for next years playoffs

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think there is fair evidence he either doesn’t care or is delusional about his performance.

There is no evidence to support that claim. In fact, all evidence suggests he cares a ton. This thread isn't exactly full of accurate depictions of his performance.

 

[Racer88]

There is no evidence to support that claim. In fact, all evidence suggests he cares a ton. This thread isn't exactly full of accurate depictions of his performance.

How do you figure that there is evidence that he cares a lot. Example please
I watched every minute of every game and he floated and coasted worse then almost everyone else on the team and his lack of success proves it.
Throwing puck afar puck over the boards if pure laziness

 

[Dekes For Days]

How do you figure that there is evidence that he cares a lot. Example please

I mean, the idea that players, especially the best players in the best league in the world, "don't care" is ridiculous to start with. And it's beyond visible and obvious how much he cares, so while I understand that people are upset and have made Marner their favourite target to spread nonsense about, I'm not sure where this idea even came from.

“No one’s feeling good about this. It’s awful,” Marner said. “What we didn’t accomplish is a pretty s––––– feeling."
“Everyone wants to step up and take it upon themselves to be winners. I mean, that’s why it’s so disappointing right now — because we didn’t meet our own expectations.”
“I think everyone can see I’ll try and play any role I can to help this team win.”
Assured captain Tavares on the heat being directed at Matthews and Marner: “No one wants it as bad as them. I see it in who they are as teammates, as people, as leaders of the team"
Etc.

 

[Racer88]

I mean, the idea that players, especially the best players in the best league in the world, "don't care" is ridiculous to start with. And it's beyond visible and obvious how much he cares, so while I understand that people are upset and have made Marner their favourite target to spread nonsense about, I'm not sure where this idea even came from.

“No one’s feeling good about this. It’s awful,” Marner said. “What we didn’t accomplish is a pretty s––––– feeling."
“Everyone wants to step up and take it upon themselves to be winners. I mean, that’s why it’s so disappointing right now — because we didn’t meet our own expectations.”
“I think everyone can see I’ll try and play any role I can to help this team win.”
Assured captain Tavares on the heat being directed at Matthews and Marner: “No one wants it as bad as them. I see it in who they are as teammates, as people, as leaders of the team"
Etc.

Thank you for providing the quotes that support your opinion. I do agree that he is unhappy with the results the team had but by his using the words “no one, everyone, we didn’t “ but I’m not convinced that he feels much of the blame. When in his exit presser says that he won’t change a thing in his preparation for next seasons playoffs that speaks volumes.
We all watched the games and he was largely invisible. For 11 million dollars in a fixed cap world that simply is not good enough.
Tavares being the good captain and all round nice guy did and should come to Marners aid…….doesn’t mean it was deserved.

 

[IPS]

Not sure what comment of mine you're even referring to - Point has done quite well in the playoffs since the disaster that was 2019. That said, the fact that you're quoting a Steve Simmons tweet cherry-picking playoff goals and discussing contracts while ignoring term and situation, to make whatever point you think you have, pretty much says it all.

I forget exactly how the conversation went (it was sometime after the Columbus series) but someone was asking you about Marner's regular season and playoffs vs Point's regular season and playoffs and you basically said Marner was superior no matter what.

Also - regarding Tampa's "disaster" against Columbus, do we just ignore that they went to the ECF the year prior (including smoking Boston in 5 games) or is it standard procedure to just ignore that? What exactly was our previous playoff success before our epic choke?

 

[IPS]

Not sure what this, or anything else you wrote, has to do with anything I said. I already said Point has done quite well in his 2020/2021 playoffs, though many of your bullet points are very misleading. Good thing Tampa didn't throw Point away after 2019, like many here are suggesting for Marner.

I'll have to reiterate again - why would Tampa need to "throw away" anyone when they can atleast fall back on previous success they've had in the playoffs.

What is our previous success we can fall back on?

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m not convinced that he feels much of the blame.

But that's not actually based on anything, and contradicts direct quotes from the player himself and the people surrounding him, that are way more informed on the matter. You can see on the ice, and off the ice - he cares a lot.

We all watched the games and he was largely invisible.

That's just not true at all. I understand concerns around conversion and finishing (which have been wildly exaggerated in this thread), but he was far from invisible. He was putting in a lot of effort and generated a lot of chances and opportunities.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If Point was just as bad again in 2020, and Tampa lost in the first round again, they likely would have. And it would be the smart thing to do.

I seriously doubt it. I think his excellent 2018 performance in his first playoff and a 40-goal regular season would have prevented them from throwing him overboard that quickly.

 

[IPS]

I understand concerns around conversion and finishing (which have been wildly exaggerated in this thread),

0 goals in his last 18 playoff games

Wildly exaggerated

 

[Dekes For Days]

I forget exactly how the conversation went (it was sometime after the Columbus series) but someone was asking you about Marner's regular season and playoffs vs Point's regular season and playoffs and you basically said Marner was superior no matter what.

If you don't remember how conversations went, don't make false statements about those conversations and misrepresent people. What you probably remember me saying is that when discussing the quality of a player, surface results in small playoff samples do not take precedence over considerably larger samples that have much more situational similarity, and that remains true.

I'll have to reiterate again - why would Tampa need to "throw away" anyone when they can atleast fall back on previous success they've had in the playoffs.

Nobody should be throwing away elite players because of emotional reactions to playoff wins and losses. That's the whole point. Tampa hadn't won anything, and Point hadn't shown anything at that point. It's a good thing they didn't take the route many here are suggesting.

 

[ToneDog]

Absolutely. Especially if the unforeseen global pandemic didn't mess with the cap.

Kucherov only missed one game, and Hedman missed two. I guess Toronto wasn't missing anybody important, eh?

Only Dubas would pay Marner more than he is overpaid today after his playoff performances. Zero (count them) zero goals in 18 playoff games and you think he deserves more money. Keep spinning.

Hedman 2/4 is 50% of the series. Who were Leafs missing vs a worse CBJ team that lost Bob, Panarin, Dzingel, and Duchene? Muzzin after game #3 and they folded. The CBJ team that beat TB was miles better than the sad CBJ team that beat the Leafs.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Tampa hadn't won anything, and Point hadn't shown anything at that point.

16 pts in his first 17 playoff games is not nothing.

 

[IPS]

If you don't remember how conversations went, don't make false statements about those conversations and misrepresent people. What you probably remember me saying is that when discussing the quality of a player, surface results in small playoff samples do not take precedence over considerably larger samples that have much more situational similarity, and that remains true.

Dude, I remember enough about the conversation that you did basically say Marner was a better playoff performer than Point. I don't think I'm misrepresenting anything. And I can only assume you're still on board with your Marner > Kane takes.

And even if you wanna jaw on about sample size now - Point has a considerable sample size now (incluing a Smythe worthy cup winning playoffs) and his resume keeps looking better than Marner's with every passing day.

Nobody should be throwing away elite players because of emotional reactions to playoff wins and losses. That's the whole point. Tampa hadn't won anything, and Point hadn't shown anything at that point. It's a good thing they didn't take the route many here are suggesting.

Oh so we are just going to pretend that Tampa didn't go to the ECF and Point didn't have a ~ppg playoff run taking them there (superior to Marner's first 17 playoff games).

The cold hard facts are that Tampa actually accomplished much more than the Leafs prior to their choke in 2019.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Only Dubas would pay Marner more than he is overpaid today

There's nothing to support the idea that he would be paid less at this point, by anybody, even with an unforeseen global pandemic stagnating the cap (which wasn't the case when he signed).

Hedman 2/4 is 50% of the series.

Because they got swept... The point is, you attempted to justify one of the worst playoff losses the sport has seen in the modern era, by claiming that they were missing two key players, when they only missed 1 and 2 games respectively, and then in the context of how that relates to the Leafs, ignored, among other injuries, that they were without Tavares - their captain and one of their best players - for essentially the entire 7-game series.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

0 goals in his last 18 playoff games

Wildly exaggerated

the worst part of that is opponents don't even try to limit Marner at scoring goals, but instead actively encourage him to take as many shots as possible

 

[hamzarocks]

There's nothing to support the idea that he would be paid less at this point, by anybody, even with an unforeseen global pandemic stagnating the cap (which wasn't the case when he signed).

Because they got swept... The point is, you attempted to justify one of the worst playoff losses the sport has seen in the modern era, by claiming that they were missing two key players, when they only missed 1 and 2 games respectively, and then in the context of how that relates to the Leafs, ignored, among other injuries, that they were without Tavares - their captain and one of their best players - for essentially the entire 7-game series.

We were up 3-1 without JT. Won 3 in a row without him. We didn't need JT to win those games. We shouldn't have needed JT to beat the habs in a best of 7. The habs are the worse playoff team this leafs core ever faced and the worse they will ever face.

Leafs flat out choked again for the 3rd year in a row, snatching defeat from the brink of victory. We should have beaten the Jackets in 4, yet after that crazy game 4 completely choked game 5. We should have beaten the Bruins in game 6 or 7 yet failed to show up and lost both games. None of our 3 stars are young anymore. They are in their primes and we still have 0 playoff series wins with them.

Marner, Matthews failed to do their jobs and got shut down by Philph Danult and his wingers. Our two best players were our 7th-9th best players in the playoffs behind

Nylander
Rielly
Muzzin
Campbell
Kerfoot
Spezza

Both of them deserve every bit of blame coming their way.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dude, I remember enough about the conversation that you did basically say Marner was a better playoff performer than Point.

Again, if you don't remember how conversations went (and you don't), then don't bring them up to make false statements and misrepresent people. What I have said is that when discussing the quality of a player, surface results in small playoff samples do not take precedence over considerably larger samples that have much more situational similarity, and that remains true.

And I can only assume you're still on board with your Marner > Kane takes.

Again, very misleading. My discussions about Marner and Kane were about their samples prior to signing their post-ELC contracts, where Marner was undeniably better.

Oh so we are just going to pretend that Tampa didn't go to the ECF and Point didn't have a ~ppg playoff run taking them there. (superior to Marner's first 17 playoff games)

The goal of the playoffs is not to go to the ECF, and the goal is certainly not to get swept after one of the best seasons of the modern era. For the record, Marner had 17 points in his first 17 playoff games.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We were up 3-1 without JT. Won 3 in a row without him. We didn't need JT to win those games. We shouldn't have needed JT to beat the habs in a best of 7.

You could certainly argue that, yes, but that's not what was being discussed. The issue was the user attempting to justify a worse loss because of the loss of key players (who only missed 1 or 2 games), but then ignoring things like the Tavares injury (over the entire series) when discussing the Leaf series.

 

[Zarley Zalapski]

I mean, the idea that players, especially the best players in the best league in the world, "don't care" is ridiculous to start with. And it's beyond visible and obvious how much he cares, so while I understand that people are upset and have made Marner their favourite target to spread nonsense about, I'm not sure where this idea even came from.

“No one’s feeling good about this. It’s awful,” Marner said. “What we didn’t accomplish is a pretty s––––– feeling."
“Everyone wants to step up and take it upon themselves to be winners. I mean, that’s why it’s so disappointing right now — because we didn’t meet our own expectations.”
“I think everyone can see I’ll try and play any role I can to help this team win.”
Assured captain Tavares on the heat being directed at Matthews and Marner: “No one wants it as bad as them. I see it in who they are as teammates, as people, as leaders of the team"
Etc.

Are those Marner quotes you cite from this year, from last year, or from 2 years ago?

 

[hamzarocks]

You could certainly argue that, yes, but that's not what was being discussed. The issue was the user attempting to justify a worse loss because of the loss of key players (who only missed 1 or 2 games), but then ignoring things like the Tavares injury (over the entire series) when discussing the Leaf series.

Ah okay my bad. I personally don't care about Tampas loss or other embarrassing losses. It's pretty clear the cores getting 1 more shot, and same goes for the coach/management team. I see no reason defending our core but they have one shot to fix things and win back the fans trust that they are worth their deals.

Hopefully either AM and MM become big time players like Point/Kuch are or our goalie/depth go crazy and win us a series or 2.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are those Marner quotes you cite from this year, from last year, or from 2 years ago?

Those are from this year.

 

[keonsbitterness]

For the record, Marner had 17 points in his first 17 playoff games.

If we're doing that direct comparison, for the record Point helped his team win two series in his first 17 playoff games.

 

[socko]

Again, very misleading. My discussions about Marner and Kane were about their samples prior to signing their post-ELC contracts, where Marner was undeniably better.

Did Kane play the perimeter, make junior moves, and have a muffin for a shot? I mean comparing Marner to Kane.... Have thee no shame? Kane will be in HOF. And yes it was obvious from the start he was going to be something special and not just a soft floater with a muffin.