Mitch Marner discussion

[ACC1224]

.... not scoring a goal in 18 consecutive playoff games is a small sample size? Its one gsme short of the last three full series!

.....not producing q powerplay goal in like 120 games is a small sample size? its nearly 1.5 seasons without a powerplay goal?

please quantify the right sample size for me.

Can the supporters indicate why there not upset with his last three post season series?

can they indicate why they arent upset with his powerplay scoring drought?

can they explain why they dont care that he hasnt scpred in 18 consecutive playoff games?

can they quantify what they expect from him offensively?

can they quantify what they expect from him in tge postseason.

Id like to see what people expect from him... certainly it has to be more than a 18 game goalless drought in the playoffs, and more than a powerplay goal every year and a half and is a point per game enough when hes playing with a top player in the game and a stacked powerplay?

questions id like @Notsince67 @Dekes For Days and @Beyonder91 to respond to and whomever else wants to. im open to my mind being changed....

appreciation definition - Google Search

 

[Antropovsky]

appreciation definition - Google Search

your refusal to answer the questions is vindicating enough. Also... as stated @Notsince67 is the one not letting this thread or the topic of Marner go away, i can link you to the constant "this team cant win without Marner posts" he/she has been posting repeatedly and not in retaliation ever since Marner has been injured. Again..the refusal to tell him to quit posting by select posters is just evidence of their bias and lack of objectivity.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

As a player, I voted love him, but I wish there was something in between "indifferent" and "love'. Hate the contract and parts of his attitude. But strictly as a player he's a 90 point setup man who is strong defensively. Disappointed in his playoff performances of course.

But for those saying the leafs suck without Marner, are they applying that to Matthews as well? The team has a crazy good record when Matthews is out. Does that mean Matthews sucks?

I like how for Marner the playoffs are "too small a sample size", so shouldn't these past 5 games be too small a sample sizes as well?

 

[AvroArrow]

I love him but rightfully upset with his performance in the playoffs

 

[Dekes For Days]

.... not scoring a goal in 18 consecutive playoff games is a small sample size?

Technically he did score a playoff goal in that time, that was incorrectly attributed to Hyman, but yes, 18 games is a small sample size, and it's a cherry picked number that starts part way through a series, because you want to avoid the fact that he scored 2 goals the game prior. Talking exclusively about goals or PP goals in the first place is a very transparent way to make things look worse than they are, as it intentionally ignores the things that most make Marner the amazing player he is - before we even get into the piles of missing context.

We all want to see more playoff production, but ignoring why production has actually been lower in those samples in order to just blame it on Marner, and arbitrarily cherry picking certain types of production, small samples, and game states to misrepresent his contributions just erases any point you hoped to make.

 

[ULF_55]

Technically he did score a playoff goal in that time, that was incorrectly attributed to Hyman, but yes, 18 games is a small sample size, and it's a cherry picked number that starts part way through a series, because you want to avoid the fact that he scored 2 goals the game prior. Talking exclusively about goals or PP goals in the first place is a very transparent way to make things look worse than they are, as it intentionally ignores the things that most make Marner the amazing player he is - before we even get into the piles of missing context.

We all want to see more playoff production, but ignoring why production has actually been lower in those samples in order to just blame it on Marner, and arbitrarily cherry picking certain types of production, small samples, and game states to misrepresent his contributions just erases any point you hoped to make.

Post Season
marner 25 points 32 games
Matthews 24 points in 32 games
Nylander 23 points in 32 games
Tavares 8 points in 13 games (really 12 games ...)

Not much difference in production amongst the top 3.

 

[Gabriel426]

I dont think it is fair to blame solely on Marner for his lack of playoffs productions and Leafs not advancing. Both Marner and AM disappointed the past playoffs and if you take away that 6 minutes in Game 4 against the BJs, their stats for the past two seasons are even worse.

I think it is fair to have concern about lack of PP goals from Marner, it had been a lot of PPs esp since there was a spell where the team just couldnt score. But thats not saying Marner is a bad player just areas he needs to improve on, like any other players, there is always areas where they can improve their game.

 

[Antropovsky]

Technically he did score a playoff goal in that time, that was incorrectly attributed to Hyman, but yes, 18 games is a small sample size, and it's a cherry picked number that starts part way through a series, because you want to avoid the fact that he scored 2 goals the game prior. Talking exclusively about goals or PP goals in the first place is a very transparent way to make things look worse than they are, as it intentionally ignores the things that most make Marner the amazing player he is - before we even get into the piles of missing context.

We all want to see more playoff production, but ignoring why production has actually been lower in those samples in order to just blame it on Marner, and arbitrarily cherry picking certain types of production, small samples, and game states to misrepresent his contributions just erases any point you hoped to make.

Cherry picked number? its 18 consecutive games..how can that be cherry picked?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

your refusal to answer the questions is vindicating enough. Also... as stated @Notsince67 is the one not letting this thread or the topic of Marner go away, i can link you to the constant "this team cant win without Marner posts" he/she has been posting repeatedly and not in retaliation ever since Marner has been injured. Again..the refusal to tell him to quit posting by select posters is just evidence of their bias and lack of objectivity.

Why do you expect people to go around policing them? Why would you come to Marner appreciation thread to complain about someone saying nice things about him?

Just start another thread.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Cherry picked number? its 18 consecutive games..how can that be cherry picked?

It’s a little odd to only include part of a series and 18 is also a weird number to use. Most people would use a multiple of 10 or 5.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Cherry picked number? its 18 consecutive games..how can that be cherry picked?

It's not a common multiple, it's not a divisible portion of a season, it's not a full playoff series, it's not a representative sample size, etc. Literally the only reason to choose 18 is because Marner scored 2 goals the game prior.

 

[mclaren55]

It's not a common multiple, it's not a divisible portion of a season, it's not a full playoff series, it's not a representative sample size, etc. Literally the only reason to choose 18 is because Marner scored 2 goals the game prior.

Does 2 goals in 19 consecutive games really sound that much better?

 

[nsleaf]

.... not scoring a goal in 18 consecutive playoff games is a small sample size? Its one gsme short of the last three full series!

.....not producing q powerplay goal in like 120 games is a small sample size? its nearly 1.5 seasons without a powerplay goal?

please quantify the right sample size for me.

1) Can the supporters indicate why there not upset with his last three post season series?

2) Can they indicate why they arent upset with his powerplay scoring drought?

3) Can they explain why they dont care that he hasnt scored in 18 consecutive playoff games?

4) Can they quantify what they expect from him offensively?

5) Can they quantify what they expect from him in the postseason.

6) what will there feelings be if Marner has another post seaspn like the last two. Would this change your opinion on him?

Id like to see what people expect from him... certainly it has to be more than a 18 game scoring drought in the playoffs, and more than a powerplay goal every year and a half and is a point per game enough when hes playing with a top player in the game and a stacked powerplay?

questions I really look forward to having @Notsince67 @Dekes For Days and @Beyonder91 respond to and whomever else wants else of course. I am very open to my mind being changed....

Can't speak for others but perhaps Marner supporters are not as obsessed with one particular player as you seem to be....... your hate is over the top.

Mind changed yet?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Does 2 goals in 19 consecutive games really sound that much better?

Whether or not you think it's good, it is better, which is why 18 was chosen.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

.... not scoring a goal in 18 consecutive playoff games is a small sample size? Its one gsme short of the last three full series!

.....not producing q powerplay goal in like 120 games is a small sample size? its nearly 1.5 seasons without a powerplay goal?

please quantify the right sample size for me.

1) Can the supporters indicate why there not upset with his last three post season series?

2) Can they indicate why they arent upset with his powerplay scoring drought?

3) Can they explain why they dont care that he hasnt scored in 18 consecutive playoff games?

4) Can they quantify what they expect from him offensively?

5) Can they quantify what they expect from him in the postseason.

6) what will there feelings be if Marner has another post seaspn like the last two. Would this change your opinion on him?

Id like to see what people expect from him... certainly it has to be more than a 18 game scoring drought in the playoffs, and more than a powerplay goal every year and a half and is a point per game enough when hes playing with a top player in the game and a stacked powerplay?

questions I really look forward to having @Notsince67 @Dekes For Days and @Beyonder91 respond to and whomever else wants else of course. I am very open to my mind being changed....

Did you miss the part where this was an appreciation thread? Start a thread about Marner’s playoff struggles of you want to talk about that.

 

[Aashir]

Well anyways…. He’s a gud player

 

[Caroline Says ll]

This thread is just riddled with the worst or Marner takes.

There are those that blindly refuse to see value, think that he is somehow overpaid 4+ million, think that he is a cancer to this team. I get being annoyed with the contract story and his playoff peformance - but that still does not eradicate his value to this team.

But then there are those that are so defensive that even the most basic critiques get brushed off as being a hater or downer. I get being annoyed with those that will dump on him and will not stop until he is gone - but others have legitimate critiques of him which should be discussed.

In the end how I view Marner he is one of the most skilled and best playmakers in the league. He has Selke level defense and his ability to break up plays and his transitions are upper level. Though being overpaid just slightly - he is an integral piece to this roster who could not be replaced. Literally he is a shorthanded point chance every single game.

What I continue to be baffled by and refuse to accept as fine and will continue to scream via my keyboard to your eyes is Marner's shot. How a player so skilled, clearly through dedication and honing his craft, somehow has a below average NHL shot is crazy. It is both weak and inaccurate. Did he just skip shot day at the gym? How did he master his skating, threading the needle passes, his majestic stickwork and deking, his ability to see a play develop as if he has lead the opponents practices - yet has a shot that is so sublevel.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Marner is a elite winger in the nhl deal with it!

 

[Zybalto]

Nope, no toxic Leafs "fans" around here.

I'm gonna go with the thread title instead of what those illiterate goofs are doing.

Reining top RW in hockey (1st team NHL all star)
First Leafs winger to be voted top ten for the Selke in ages
Most primary assists in the NHL of anyone other than McDavid since the start of the 2017 season. Possibly the greatest playmaker to ever play for the Leafs.

He gets crapped on as the Leafs ran into 3 of the top 10 goalkeepers of the last 3 playoffs at the same time Toronto's big shooters went cold (these things may be connected) but his 5v5 xGF% in the playoffs ranks 1st among all 183 players with 200+ minutes the last 2 playoffs (and first by a mile) No player tilted the ice more when it came to 5v5 quality scoring chances than Marner. Switch the goalies the last 2 playoffs and Marner is probably near the top of the playoffs scoring and the Leafs are going on a run.

With those elite stats moving forward, it's easy to bet big on him really breaking out this playoffs, especially with a healthy Matthews beside him (and hopefully healthy, Muzzin, Tavares, etc.)

The obsession with his salary is just plain weird as well as he obviously didn't negotiate it (so why blame him?) and if you really had to rank it, he'd be above average if you had to rank him out of the players making 10 mlillion+ (I'll throw in Seguin as he's close enough at 9.85):

McDavid
Panarin
Matthews
Karlsson
Tavares
Doughty
Marner
Price
Kane
Toews
Bobrovsky
Kopitar
Eichel
Seguin

How many of those players do you even take over Marner? A bunch of them are past their primes or crap defensively or just plain hurt all the time. I'd say he is certainly above average for value here. The fury over his salary is brain dead IMO.

Elite two-way player. Full stop.

 

[9Iron]

This thread is just riddled with the worst or Marner takes.

There are those that blindly refuse to see value, think that he is somehow overpaid 4+ million, think that he is a cancer to this team. I get being annoyed with the contract story and his playoff peformance - but that still does not eradicate his value to this team.

But then there are those that are so defensive that even the most basic critiques get brushed off as being a hater or downer. I get being annoyed with those that will dump on him and will not stop until he is gone - but others have legitimate critiques of him which should be discussed.

In the end how I view Marner he is one of the most skilled and best playmakers in the league. He has Selke level defense and his ability to break up plays and his transitions are upper level. Though being overpaid just slightly - he is an integral piece to this roster who could not be replaced. Literally he is a shorthanded point chance every single game.

What I continue to be baffled by and refuse to accept as fine and will continue to scream via my keyboard to your eyes is Marner's shot. How a player so skilled, clearly through dedication and honing his craft, somehow has a below average NHL shot is crazy. It is both weak and inaccurate. Did he just skip shot day at the gym? How did he master his skating, threading the needle passes, his majestic stickwork and deking, his ability to see a play develop as if he has lead the opponents practices - yet has a shot that is so sublevel.

100% agree wrt to his shot. I also believe that "Muffins" has yet to score on a simple wrist shot or greater this season. All his goals have been in tight and were backhands or basically tap-ins. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Like you say, the guy has a nose for every aspect of the game... except putting it in the net. Can't have everything I guess. Kinda glad he's getting some recovery time rn, unwanted or not. The guy can get worn down.

 

[saffronleaf]

Post Season
marner 25 points 32 games
Matthews 24 points in 32 games
Nylander 23 points in 32 games
Tavares 8 points in 13 games (really 12 games ...)

Not much difference in production amongst the top 3.

but I think the trend lines are what's more concerning with Marner. Last few playoffs in particular were weaker.

last year: 0g, 4a in 7 games
year before: 0g, 4a in 5 games (not so bad I guess)
year before: 2g, 2a in 7 games

Matthews:

last year: 1g, 4a in 7 games (also disappointing)
year before: 2g, 4a in 5 games
year before: 5g, 1a in 7 games

But of course it can seem and arguably is a bit arbitrary; push it back one more year and Marner had a great 9-point series.

 

[Zybalto]

Marner Goal scoring comparables the last 4 years (including this one):

PLD
O'Reilly
Benn
Kessel
Couture
RNH
Monahan
Larkin
B.Tkatchuk
Horvat

 

[Zybalto]

but I think the trend lines are what's more concerning with Marner. Last few playoffs in particular were weaker.

last year: 0g, 4a in 7 games
year before: 0g, 4a in 5 games (not so bad I guess)
year before: 2g, 2a in 7 games

Matthews:

last year: 1g, 4a in 7 games (also disappointing)
year before: 2g, 4a in 5 games
year before: 5g, 1a in 7 games

But of course it can seem and arguably is a bit arbitrary; push it back one more year and Marner had a great 9-point series.

Goalies faced:

Rask: Arguably the best goalie of the playoffs, certainly top 2. The big difference the last two games (when compared with the goalkeeping the Leafs had).
Korpisalo: Best run of his career playing with an underachieving Jackets team, set the single game save record against Tampa that run (85 saves) and still lost somehow.
Price: 2nd best goalie of the playoffs only to Conn Smyth Vasi. Considered the only reason the Habs even got out of the first round.

Last year was interesting as it was a battle of maybe the best 2-way lines in hockey last year and Matthews/Marner wrecked the Danault line so bad they literally split it up.

 

[saffronleaf]

Goalies faced:

Rask: Arguably the best goalie of the playoffs, certainly top 2. The big difference the last two games (when compared with the goalkeeping the Leafs had).
Korpisalo: Best run of his career playing with an underachieving Jackets team, set the single game save record against Tampa that run (85 saves) and still lost somehow.
Price: 2nd best goalie of the playoffs only to Conn Smyth Vasi. Considered the only reason the Habs even got out of the first round.

Last year was interesting as it was a battle of maybe the best 2-way lines in hockey last year and Matthews/Marner wrecked the Danault line so bad they literally split it up.

that brings us to the leafs repeated issue of being goalie'd, is that just amazing goaltending or do they need to modify their play to make it harder on the goalies?

 

[Caroline Says ll]

Marner Goal scoring comparables the last 4 years (including this one):

PLD
O'Reilly
Benn
Kessel
Couture
RNH
Monahan
Larkin
B.Tkatchuk
Horvat

Marner scores goals in ways that he will go to the front of net, he will deke and open a goalie up. He is skilled enough to make up for his lack of a shot. But the fact that he can score 20 goals a season should not undermine is subpar shooting ability.