Mitch Marner discussion

[Notsince67]

Every single other player who has had an appreciation thread started has had some critiques of them. Some people will preface that Tavares has overcome his skating issues this season, others will point out the still see lazy streaks in Nylander.

I appreciate Marner enough to recognize that his upper level skills at all elements of the game that make him a special player. I cannot help but imagine an improved shot - just to make it a threat. This would launch Marner to new levels.

It would make coverage of him more difficult - especially playing with Matthews, as teams couldn't just focus mostly on the pass. It would make our powerplay even more lethal as they no longer leave the lane open for a Marner wrister as much as it currently is. If he is already a 90 point player and improved shot could had easily 10 mote points to that.

I do accept and appreciate Marner as he is. One of the best wingers in the game and a selke candidate. But I can still stress he should work on his shot as he is at an age where it can still be worked on and it would take nothing away from his current game.

I don't take issue with criticism. Your post really sounded critical of people posting nice stuff on an appreciation thread.
The only issue that I could see people were angry about was one poster who had nothing good to say. Criticisms of him should not be seen as criticisms of everything mildly critical

 

[Zybalto]

No offence but your list sucks. Of course some of there players are overpaid and/or past their primes, that's what routinely happens when you are an elite player signing a contract as a UFA or when approaching UFA status. Marner was not in that position so most of there players on your list are not good compareables for Marner so they simply don't belong on that list. Marner was a RFA years away from UFA status which is why the contract he signed was a joke. Not his fault, can't blame anyone for taking the money if that's what's most important to him but it is disappointing to say the least that our GM had leverage but didn't use it.

Off the top of my head, there are 3 comparables on that list, the rest just don't belong. I take McDavid and Matthews over Marner, that's as easy at it gets. Eichel is harder, the two players are pretty close in value but of course we need to see if Eichel gets back to full health first, until he does that I will choose the healthy player.

Also interesting that you made a list of players making at least 10 million which is almost 10% less than Marner makes. That may not sound like much to you but 10% is actually a massive difference. If you don't think it is then try this thought experiment - what could the Leafs do with 10% more cap space?

You have made a lot of excellent posts showing Marner's value and I've said it before - he is a special player. But his contract is a clear overpayment and I'm surprised you're even trying to defend it. I suggest you stop trying to do that, even Zeke who is one of his biggest supporters has said he's overpaid so finding people to agree with you will be next to impossible. And if you are going to try, you need to do a much better job - comparing him to guys signed as UFA's with smaller cap hits isn't going to cut it.

The only way people will stop being unhappy with Marner's contract is to go deep in the playoffs, then people will be so happy that they simply won't care. Until then, probably best to just keep quiet and not draw more attention to his contract which is a clear overpayment and the only thing open to question, is just how big an overpayment was it (the consensus seems to be that 9 million was about right).

I'm actually not trying to defend the contract in terms of it's real value, I'm trying to defend the fact it is some kind of bad contract relative to the rest of the 10 million+ contracts. I understand the UFA/RFA stuff but just looking at the contracts based on merit:

McDavid: Obviously a fine contract but has only won a single playoff game since he signed it in 2017.
Panarin: Similar elite regular-season production to Marner but also similar playoff production(outside of the miracle first round against the Bolts) with worse D. Overpaid maybe a mil.
Matthews: Looking to be a generational goal scorer and contract is fine.
Karlsson: Huge disappointment and obvious overpayment
Tavares: Steady eddie top end production and great leader but overpaid a couple mil.
Doughty: You can blame the team but again a disappointment (although underlying numbers far better than Karlsson)
Marner: Production in line with Panarin except less goals and better D. Due to him being an elite 2-way force, you can really feel when he's out of the lineup.
Price: Great big game goalie but injured half the time and not going to even be a factor this post season. Overpaid.
Kane: Still top end production but on a team going nowhere and suspect D. Overpaid
Toews: Out of his prime and working to get back to a top-end guy. Overpaid
Bobrovsky: Looking better this year but one of the reasons Florida didnt make more noise last year. Overpaid.
Kopitar: Still a top center but is he worth more than Tavares? Overpaid a couple mil
Eichel: Out with what could be a career changing injury. Lets see if he can get back to what he was, which was overpaid a mil.
Seguin: Completely fell off partly due to injuries. Well overpaid.

As you can see, I somwhat agree with the 9 million number you float around (I would say 9.5ish) but also have to remind you that elite talent always gets paid more, and Marner is actually one of the top paid guys that is living up to his contract comparatively. I listed these guys based on highest paid to least highest paid but in terms of value?

McDavid
Matthews
Panarin
Marner
Tavares
Kopitar
Doughty
Bobrovsky
Karlsson
Price
Toews
Seguin
Eichel

Does this look good as a ranking of the top 14 highest-paid players are bringing in relation to their contracts? If not, let me know why.

 

[ACC1224]

Every single other player who has had an appreciation thread started has had some critiques of them. Some people will preface that Tavares has overcome his skating issues this season, others will point out the still see lazy streaks in Nylander.

I appreciate Marner enough to recognize that his upper level skills at all elements of the game that make him a special player. I cannot help but imagine an improved shot - just to make it a threat. This would launch Marner to new levels.

It would make coverage of him more difficult - especially playing with Matthews, as teams couldn't just focus mostly on the pass. It would make our powerplay even more lethal as they no longer leave the lane open for a Marner wrister as much as it currently is. If he is already a 90 point player and improved shot could had easily 10 mote points to that.

I do accept and appreciate Marner as he is. One of the best wingers in the game and a selke candidate. But I can still stress he should work on his shot as he is at an age where it can still be worked on and it would take nothing away from his current game.

You can be assured, like pretty much every player, he works on his shot and everything else every off season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Never mind the fact that the guy Leafs fans have decided to point out as the one at fault for all our playoff failures leads the team in postseason points since he joined the team.

It’s all his fault and we must use the most biased argument we can come up with to prove it

Who would do that? Nice straw man argument.

The guy I was quoting did it, I quoted his post and even bolded the relevant part for you and now I did it again, look above.

I did all that and you still ask me - who would do that? And then say straw man argument? You're too much dude.

Who would do that? Nice straw man argument.

Difficult to remember the last time Marner merited some real criticism. The so called "everything is awesome crowd" characterization is pretty much a distraction because they (meaning me included I guess) arent denying the fallibility but merely pointing out the very strong body of work in entirety. The constant virtual rioting by the few is exhausting. You call me winy or rather snowflaky yet feel that criticisms using flawed statistical sample sizes as a measure of conclusion is fair.

The contortions some people go through to appear even handed in the face of clear provocations by shit building engineers is weak and pathetic. It's either Stockholm syndrome or arrogance or both.

I'm a fan of the game and in particular the Leafs. I have been a leafs fan for decades and have stood unapologetically for that team when they were clearly crap. I knew they were crap but I still enjoyed the small victories such as the Orr McLaren shit kicking days. I didn't feel weak supporting a weak team because I didn't define them losing as being in a weak tribe. The tribalism here doesn't serve Leaf fandom. It serves to bolster the weak minded low self-esteem keyboard warriors with a promise of some power in their otherwise powerless lives. Lucky for them because in the days before the internet, the only thing they would have achieved with such caustic and aggressive communication was a decoration of bruises. The medium has become more civilized from a physical perspective but it most certainly isn't more polite or measured. It also fails to filter the dumb because voice is given to illogical premises through passive aggressive appeals to the middle by white nights who have a fondness of cliff notes over real books.

I've said many times that Marner is a special player and I have supported every single player wearing the Maple Leaf for 50+ years. As a post below yours points out though (and I will quote him directly) - Every single other player who has had an appreciation thread started has had some critiques of them.

Get over it.

 

[supermann_98]

Love or hate or indifferent? I guess I fall under indifferent because I don’t like him but hate is way too strong a word. He’s a greedy entitled boy, I don’t yet consider him to be a man and I don’t consider him to be a leader on this team, despite the fact he wears an A on his sweater

 

[Zybalto]

Love or hate or indifferent? I guess I fall under indifferent because I don’t like him but hate is way too strong a word. He’s a greedy entitled boy, I don’t yet consider him to be a man and I don’t consider him to be a leader on this team, despite the fact he wears an A on his sweater

Why do you think this?

 

[Caroline Says ll]

It's really not that strange to be elite at certain aspects of play, but more average in others. We've seen it a lot throughout NHL history. Would Marner be a better player if he had a better shot? Sure; you could say that about literally any player ever. What's strange is fans being upset that he's not literally perfect, instead of appreciating the amazing, unique things he can do and the ways in which he stands above the rest of the league. We didn't judge Thornton exclusively by his shooting talent, or Ovechkin exclusively by his playmaking ability, because that would be missing the majority of what they bring, and the things that make them elite.

Thornton had an average shot he used too sparingly but it still netted him 30 goal seasons multiple times. Ovechkin has had above average playmaking for his career which always needed to be covered and respected enough that he has always manage to have space and time for his shot. Teams could not just smother Ovechkin because he can still pass greatly to the open player. In the end you are correct that one of those players was much more valuable a playmaker and one much more valuable a goal scorer. Marner would be a top player in the league with seasons comparable to Thornton and Ovechkin if his shot was better. Yes you can dream of any player improving their weakness. But there has been players who from when they begam their career to the middle of it improved on things which can be improved ( faceoffs, shooting etc) - so while I love watching Marner player I still want things improved. Just as I do on every player on the Leafs and Sabres.

 

[ACC1224]

Love or hate or indifferent? I guess I fall under indifferent because I don’t like him but hate is way too strong a word. He’s a greedy entitled boy, I don’t yet consider him to be a man and I don’t consider him to be a leader on this team, despite the fact he wears an A on his sweater

Call it whatever you like but irrational hate is still hate.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm actually not trying to defend the contract in terms of it's real value, I'm trying to defend the fact it is some kind of bad contract relative to the rest of the 10 million+ contracts. I understand the UFA/RFA stuff but just looking at the contracts based on merit:

McDavid: Obviously a fine contract but has only won a single playoff game since he signed it in 2017.
Panarin: Similar elite regular-season production to Marner but also similar playoff production(outside of the miracle first round against the Bolts) with worse D. Overpaid maybe a mil.
Matthews: Looking to be a generational goal scorer and contract is fine.
Karlsson: Huge disappointment and obvious overpayment
Tavares: Steady eddie top end production and great leader but overpaid a couple mil.
Doughty: You can blame the team but again a disappointment (although underlying numbers far better than Karlsson)
Marner: Production in line with Panarin except less goals and better D. Due to him being an elite 2-way force, you can really feel when he's out of the lineup.
Price: Great big game goalie but injured half the time and not going to even be a factor this post season. Overpaid.
Kane: Still top end production but on a team going nowhere and suspect D. Overpaid
Toews: Out of his prime and working to get back to a top-end guy. Overpaid
Bobrovsky: Looking better this year but one of the reasons Florida didnt make more noise last year. Overpaid.
Kopitar: Still a top center but is he worth more than Tavares? Overpaid a couple mil
Eichel: Out with what could be a career changing injury. Lets see if he can get back to what he was, which was overpaid a mil.
Seguin: Completely fell off partly due to injuries. Well overpaid.

As you can see, I somwhat agree with the 9 million number you float around (I would say 9.5ish) but also have to remind you that elite talent always gets paid more, and Marner is actually one of the top paid guys that is living up to his contract comparatively. I listed these guys based on highest paid to least highest paid but in terms of value?

McDavid
Matthews
Panarin
Marner
Tavares
Kopitar
Doughty
Bobrovsky
Karlsson
Price
Toews
Seguin
Eichel

Does this look good as a ranking of the top 14 highest-paid players are bringing in relation to their contracts? If not, let me know why.

Comparing Marner's contract to contracts signed by veterans who are either UFA's, or approaching UFA status makes zero sense. If you want to compare Tavares to Panarin, that's one thing as you have players roughly the same age who were both signed as UFA's but throwing Marner and then people like Doughty and Price into that mix makes no sense. There are 3 players on that list who are anywhere near Marner in terms of being good comparisons and I gave my opinion on them already.

 

[Caroline Says ll]

I don't take issue with criticism. Your post really sounded critical of people posting nice stuff on an appreciation thread.
The only issue that I could see people were angry about was one poster who had nothing good to say. Criticisms of him should not be seen as criticisms of everything mildly critical

Not once did I sound off on appreciation of Marner. I noted that i find this thread to be the most extreme polarity where it is filled with nonsense calling Marner toxic and a diva and wanting him traded - to the opposite where pointing out a flaw gets reduced down to that poster being a hater or blinded by Marner hate.

 

[Zybalto]

Comparing Marner's contract to contracts signed by veterans who are either UFA's, or approaching UFA status makes zero sense. If you want to compare Tavares to Panarin, that's one thing as you have players roughly the same age who were both signed as UFA's but throwing Marner and then people like Doughty and Price into that mix makes no sense. There are 3 players on that list who are anywhere near Marner in terms of being good comparisons and I gave my opinion on them already.

We can get into that (and cap stuff is a massive talk that could last forever) but is my list wrong?

Thats the point I am trying to make. He's overpaid just like every other big contract but he is actually one of the better ones out there relative to what he makes.

I really don't care about critiques all that much, even in an appreciation thread. It just seems that so many of the attacks on Marner don't seem all that rational is all.

Even playoff production critiques look weird when 20 forwards have played for the Leafs the last 2 playoffs and Marner has more points than 12 of them combined. With the drop in shooting % across the board (and actually a higher production% by the stars in the playoffs than regular season), it sure looks like a team that got goalied but lets all focus on one player, the player who sets up shooters....when shooting% on a decent number of great setups was the problem?

Gotta feeling this is gonna end up a "agree to disagree" talk but it just feels he's getting singled out for a contract negotiation his agent was making for him for some reason. Thats why were are getting so much contract and "greedy" comments right. Now THATS a braindead argument. No offense to Mitch but he's a hockey nerd and certainly not an academic one and the chances he had a hand in negotiating his contract is about on par with him having a hand in the cure for Covid.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Love or hate or indifferent? I guess I fall under indifferent because I don’t like him but hate is way too strong a word. He’s a greedy entitled boy, I don’t yet consider him to be a man and I don’t consider him to be a leader on this team, despite the fact he wears an A on his sweater

Agreed
Very talented, there's no denying that, but not a fan of his. Immature, entitled, and fragile. No physicality, no shot, and about 3 mill overpaid (and his team's negotiating tactics were very public and ridiculous - many soured on him after that)

 

[Gary Nylund]

We can get into that (and cap stuff is a massive talk that could last forever) but is my list wrong?

Thats the point I am trying to make. He's overpaid just like every other big contract but he is actually one of the better ones out there relative to what he makes.

Your list is irrelevant. If you want to talk about value in relation to contract, the list should be made up of names like McDavid, Eichel, Provorov, Werenski, Barzal and Connor. Wait, some of those guys have smaller cap hits you say? As the saying goes - there's the rub. You have McDavid and Eichel on your list and like I said that makes sense, the rest of your list does not.

I really don't care about critiques all that much, even in an appreciation thread. It just seems that so many of the attacks on Marner don't seem all that rational is all.

Agreed. Happens in every thread about everyone from Dubas to Marner down to 4th line guys and 3rd pairing Dmen though so it's just part of the magic that makes up HOF boards.

Even playoff production critiques look weird when 20 forwards have played for the Leafs the last 2 playoffs and Marner has more points than 12 of them combined. With the drop in shooting % across the board (and actually a higher production% by the stars in the playoffs than regular season), it sure looks like a team that got goalied but lets all focus on one player, the player who sets up shooters....when shooting% on a decent number of great setups was the problem?

As I said earlier, IMO the idea that the focus is on Marner it completely false. This is a Marner thread which is why the talk is about him but I've seen more people blaming Andersen for our playoff failures than Marner and it's not really close either.

Gotta feeling this is gonna end up a "agree to disagree" talk but it just feels he's getting singled out for a contract negotiation his agent was making for him for some reason. Thats why were are getting so much contract and "greedy" comments right. Now THATS a braindead argument. No offense to Mitch but he's a hockey nerd and certainly not an academic one and the chances he had a hand in negotiating his contract is about on par with him having a hand in the cure for Covid.

I agree calling him greedy makes no sense. At the same time, with that contract comes higher expectations and a higher degree of scrutiny so can't really complain about that either.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Thornton had an average shot he used too sparingly but it still netted him 30 goal seasons multiple times.

Over a 23-year career, Thornton had two seasons in which he scored or paced for 30 goals, and those were largely driven by outlier years in PP goals when Thornton was getting in the range of 5 minutes of PP time per game. Through his first 5 years, Marner has one.

Ovechkin has had above average playmaking for his career

He has pretty average playmaking and vision, and has been pretty bad defensively for most of his career. But the value he brings in his goal-scoring is not ignored to focus on that.

Marner would be a top player in the league

Marner is a top player in the league already.

But there has been players who from when they begam their career to the middle of it improved on things which can be improved ( faceoffs, shooting etc) - so while I love watching Marner player I still want things improved.

Marner has improved his shot from the beginning of his career, and as a 24 year old not close to the middle of his career, he will continue to improve his shot as well as other aspects of his game. Appreciating Marner for the amazing, unique, and incredibly valuable player he is already doesn't prevent that.

 

[Zybalto]

Your list is irrelevant. If you want to talk about value in relation to contract, the list should be made up of names like McDavid, Eichel, Provorov, Werenski, Barzal and Connor. Wait, some of those guys have smaller cap hits you say? As the saying goes - there's the rub. You have McDavid and Eichel on your list and like I said that makes sense, the rest of your list does not.

I just think you are putting way too much emphasis on the RFA/UFA stuff. How about just trying to apply straight value for money for those contracts and then weight the RFA/UFA stuff after?

Also, reminding you that Marner finished 4th in points, voted best RW in the NHL and 3rd best defensive winger in the NHL, how would you rank him compared to the guys you think he should be compared to? How bad is his contract if it even is bad relative the rest of the league?

As I said earlier, IMO the idea that the focus is on Marner it completely false. This is a Marner thread which is why the talk is about him but I've seen more people blaming Andersen for our playoff failures than Marner and it's not really close either.

Its as much a goaltending difference between the teams as it is solely on Leafs goalies. I remember those big Cujo/Belfour/Potvin saves that clutched out those games for us. Not many of those moments the last 5 years is still somehow not talked about enough. I sure see the other side doing it though.

I agree calling him greedy makes no sense. At the same time, with that contract comes higher expectations and a higher degree of scrutiny so can't really complain about that either.

I don't mind seeing the scrutiny but the greedy stuff is far more prevalent than it should be. It's the first thing a bunch of posters say.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just think you are putting way too much emphasis on the RFA/UFA stuff. How about just trying to apply straight value for money for those contracts and then weight the RFA/UFA stuff after?

I think the amount of emphasis I'm putting on the RFA/UFA stuff is just right. I'm also amazed you could think that it makes sense to compare contracts for guys like Price/Kopitar/Doughty to Marner. Why not compare him to players drafted in the same year as him who signed their contract around the same age, status and salary cap amount? Seems so obvious to me that this makes complete sense, perhaps you could explain what your objection is here?

Also, reminding you that Marner finished 4th in points, voted best RW in the NHL and 3rd best defensive winger in the NHL, how would you rank him compared to the guys you think he should be compared to? How bad is his contract if it even is bad relative the rest of the league?

Its as much a goaltending difference between the teams as it is solely on Leafs goalies. I remember those big Cujo/Belfour/Potvin saves that clutched out those games for us. Not many of those moments the last 5 years is still somehow not talked about enough. I sure see the other side doing it though.

Our goalies have made some great saves as well, they just don't get talked about as much because we didn't score enough goals to win - highlight reel saves aren't as memorable when the team loses. And we really shouldn't need Belfour level goaltending to win one damn playoff series, .936 SV% should do the job every time.

I don't mind seeing the scrutiny but the greedy stuff is far more prevalent than it should be. It's the first thing a bunch of posters say.

It shouldn't be prevalent at all. His contract is the fault of the GM, period.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm actually not trying to defend the contract in terms of it's real value, I'm trying to defend the fact it is some kind of bad contract relative to the rest of the 10 million+ contracts. I understand the UFA/RFA stuff but just looking at the contracts based on merit:

McDavid: Obviously a fine contract but has only won a single playoff game since he signed it in 2017.
Panarin: Similar elite regular-season production to Marner but also similar playoff production(outside of the miracle first round against the Bolts) with worse D. Overpaid maybe a mil.
Matthews: Looking to be a generational goal scorer and contract is fine.
Karlsson: Huge disappointment and obvious overpayment
Tavares: Steady eddie top end production and great leader but overpaid a couple mil.
Doughty: You can blame the team but again a disappointment (although underlying numbers far better than Karlsson)
Marner: Production in line with Panarin except less goals and better D. Due to him being an elite 2-way force, you can really feel when he's out of the lineup.
Price: Great big game goalie but injured half the time and not going to even be a factor this post season. Overpaid.
Kane: Still top end production but on a team going nowhere and suspect D. Overpaid
Toews: Out of his prime and working to get back to a top-end guy. Overpaid
Bobrovsky: Looking better this year but one of the reasons Florida didnt make more noise last year. Overpaid.
Kopitar: Still a top center but is he worth more than Tavares? Overpaid a couple mil
Eichel: Out with what could be a career changing injury. Lets see if he can get back to what he was, which was overpaid a mil.
Seguin: Completely fell off partly due to injuries. Well overpaid.

As you can see, I somwhat agree with the 9 million number you float around (I would say 9.5ish) but also have to remind you that elite talent always gets paid more, and Marner is actually one of the top paid guys that is living up to his contract comparatively. I listed these guys based on highest paid to least highest paid but in terms of value?

McDavid
Matthews
Panarin
Marner
Tavares
Kopitar
Doughty
Bobrovsky
Karlsson
Price
Toews
Seguin
Eichel

Does this look good as a ranking of the top 14 highest-paid players are bringing in relation to their contracts? If not, let me know why.

Funny thing is the group below these players are much better deals, including Ovechkin, Kucherov, Vasileskiy, Crosby, Makar, Draisatl ... Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Certainly, in several cases, you take marner over the other overpaid players, Toews, Seguin, Karlsson are painful.

It really is value for money that matters, especially in a Hard Cap League, otherwise being overpaid might make some people jealous, but it isn't a negative impact on a team.

 

[Jojalu]

Using a 19 game sample size actually makes a lot more sense than using an 18 game sample size here, because at least that includes the entirety of the playoff series that you're looking at, instead of arbitrarily starting in the middle. You chose to focus exclusively on the type of production that is least relevant for him, with no context, over a specifically chosen sample that makes him look the worst, and as a result we get something that doesn't accurately represent his contributions or the quality of player he is.

Dekes, I usually agree with you but this is the same as saying they are on an 18 gane losing streak. Even if it was started in the middle of series you would not go back to the beginning of a series to say they had lost 18 out of 19.

It is 18 consecutive games. That is the story. If he had scored in 18 consecutive games and someone tried to point out that he had not scored in the 19th game it would be poppycock and you would be all over it

 

[Zybalto]

I think the amount of emphasis I'm putting on the RFA/UFA stuff is just right. I'm also amazed you could think that it makes sense to compare contracts for guys like Price/Kopitar/Doughty to Marner. Why not compare him to players drafted in the same year as him who signed their contract around the same age, status and salary cap amount? Seems so obvious to me that this makes complete sense, perhaps you could explain what your objection is here?

Go ahead, compare them in terms of their value and you're gonna end up with Marner near the top of the list. The question really is how much he is worth to be the 2nd highest paid player right? His production and accolades are 2nd of the players listed so he cant be too far off. Quibbling over less than 2 million in cap seems trivial when getting a player of his calibre IMO.

Our goalies have made some great saves as well, they just don't get talked about as much because we didn't score enough goals to win - highlight reel saves aren't as memorable when the team loses. And we really shouldn't need Belfour level goaltending to win one damn playoff series, .936 SV% should do the job every time.

That .936 came behind one of the top defensive teams in the playoffs and clutch (high danger) save % was the WORST in the playoffs. I mean, when the opposition goalie has the same save% and you are outshooting and out chancing the other team by a huge margin and still lose, you might have gotten goalied (and both ways too). Flip the goalies and the Leafs win the last 2 years. I'm quite confident in saying that.

It shouldn't be prevalent at all. His contract is the fault of the GM, period.

I can respect that argument 100% but, like I said, his contract isnt a bargain but its not worth all the griping either. Slightly overpaid for a player of his level should be acceptable no?

 

[Zybalto]

Funny thing is the group below these players are much better deals, including Ovechkin, Kucherov, Vasileskiy, Crosby, Makar, Draisatl ... Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Certainly, in several cases, you take marner over the other overpaid players, Toews, Seguin, Karlsson are painful.

It really is value for money that matters, especially in a Hard Cap League, otherwise being overpaid might make some people jealous, but it isn't a negative impact on a team.

Yup, many of those players should be making more but either popped off after they signed a contract, are on aging contracts or even are located in more favorable locations.

 

[Antropovsky]

It’s a little odd to only include part of a series and 18 is also a weird number to use. Most people would use a multiple of 10 or 5.

Little odd? can you show me examples where your typical method is in a article? Like i said earlier... i simply googled slump and found two instances in the very first article i opened where the odd and weird odd numbers were used to discussed slumping Penguins and Canadiens written by CBC. What a coincidence that my odd and weird method was found twice in the first article i opened? Im legitimately interested in seeing your typical stats similar to Marners situation of players having 2 points in 19 games where he recorded 2 points in game 1 followed by 18 without one.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

We can get into that (and cap stuff is a massive talk that could last forever) but is my list wrong?

Thats the point I am trying to make. He's overpaid just like every other big contract but he is actually one of the better ones out there relative to what he makes.

I really don't care about critiques all that much, even in an appreciation thread. It just seems that so many of the attacks on Marner don't seem all that rational is all.

Even playoff production critiques look weird when 20 forwards have played for the Leafs the last 2 playoffs and Marner has more points than 12 of them combined. With the drop in shooting % across the board (and actually a higher production% by the stars in the playoffs than regular season), it sure looks like a team that got goalied but lets all focus on one player, the player who sets up shooters....when shooting% on a decent number of great setups was the problem?

Gotta feeling this is gonna end up a "agree to disagree" talk but it just feels he's getting singled out for a contract negotiation his agent was making for him for some reason. Thats why were are getting so much contract and "greedy" comments right. Now THATS a braindead argument. No offense to Mitch but he's a hockey nerd and certainly not an academic one and the chances he had a hand in negotiating his contract is about on par with him having a hand in the cure for Covid.

Marner's leverage was "I can play for peanuts in Switzerland". Gm has all the leverage.

Ufa's leverage is "I can play for literally 31 other teams and I'm pitting all of the gm's against each other in a bidding war." Player has all the leverage.

So the criticism in his contract is that the rookie gm couldn't use his cba outline MASSIVE leverage to get him to the aav more in line with his direct comparables at time of signing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Go ahead, compare them in terms of their value and you're gonna end up with Marner near the top of the list. The question really is how much he is worth to be the 2nd highest paid player right? His production and accolades are 2nd of the players listed so he cant be too far off. Quibbling over less than 2 million in cap seems trivial when getting a player of his calibre IMO.

That .936 came behind one of the top defensive teams in the playoffs and clutch (high danger) save % was the WORST in the playoffs. I mean, when the opposition goalie has the same save% and you are outshooting and out chancing the other team by a huge margin and still lose, you might have gotten goalied (and both ways too). Flip the goalies and the Leafs win the last 2 years. I'm quite confident in saying that.

I can respect that argument 100% but, like I said, his contract isnt a bargain but its not worth all the griping either. Slightly overpaid for a player of his level should be acceptable no?

You say "Quibbling over less than 2 million in cap seems trivial". First of all, who says it's less than 2 million, many people think 2 million is the amount he is overpaid by and it seems pretty accurate to me. And 2 million is massive, being overpaid by 2 million makes him the most overpaid player on our team for starters, even 1.5 million would be enough for that so how the hell is that trivial?

Marner on top of the list in terms of value? Marner is overpaid IMO to the tune of 1.5-2 million and that might put him near the top of the list if we order them by how much they're overpaid by, definitely not if we're ordering them by how much bang for the buck they provide.

We've discussed goaltending before, you want to blame our goalies you go right ahead but instead of treading over ground you and I have already covered, why don't you talk to the people complaining about Marner being the one blamed for our playoff failures? I told them there are plenty of people who blame our goaltending but they don't seem to listen.

Marner's leverage was "I can play for peanuts in Switzerland". Gm has all the leverage.

Ufa's leverage is "I can play for literally 31 other teams and I'm pitting all of the gm's against each other in a bidding war." Player has all the leverage.

So the criticism in his contract is that the rookie gm couldn't use his cba outline MASSIVE leverage to get him to the aav more in line with his direct comparables at time of signing.

Yup. Dubas screwed this one up big time and you've summed up rather nicely why comparing Marner's contract to contracts signed by UFA's is absurd.

 

[Notsince67]

You say "Quibbling over less than 2 million in cap seems trivial". First of all, who says it's less than 2 million, many people think 2 million is the amount he is overpaid by and it seems pretty accurate to me. And 2 million is massive, being overpaid by 2 million makes him the most overpaid player on our team for starters, even 1.5 million would be enough for that so how the hell is that trivial?

Marner on top of the list in terms of value? Marner is overpaid IMO to the tune of 1.5-2 million and that might put him near the top of the list if we order them by how much they're overpaid by, definitely not if we're ordering them by how much bang for the buck they provide.

We've discussed goaltending before, you want to blame our goalies you go right ahead but instead of treading over ground you and I have already covered, why don't you talk to the people complaining about Marner being the one blamed for our playoff failures? I told them there are plenty of people who blame our goaltending but they don't seem to listen.



Yup. Dubas screwed this one up big time and you've summed up rather nicely why comparing Marner's contract to contracts signed by UFA's is absurd.

He isnt overpaid by 2 million. Your many people argument is hilarious. One way to justify a pretty dumb take.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He isnt overpaid by 2 million. Your many people argument is hilarious. One way to justify a pretty dumb take.

It's not an argument, just stating facts. Anyone that spends as much time posting here as you do should be well aware that almost everyone agrees Marner is overpaid and there are many, many people who think that he is overpaid by roughly 2 million.