Mitch Marner discussion thread continued ..

[Beyonder91]

By “context” you mean “excuses” for his lack of production. Three playoffs in a row.

Once again... hyperbole
Also, these playoffs aren't over yet... as much as you act like they are.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Keefe really needs to cool it with his Marner fetish. This is his second consecutive series being fed minutes and not living up to them. Scale him back to 17-18 minutes and make him earn the 22+ ice time with his play.

 

[hotpaws]

By “context” you mean “excuses” for his lack of production. Three playoffs in a row.

of course that's what he means , lol

Marner hasn't played badly but at his cap hit he needs his play to show up on the scoreboard since you don't win games by x/goals .

 

[Suntouchable13]

For example:
He largely played against the best line in the league in 2017-18 & 2018-19. Also, in 2018-19 Babcock actively used his line in a shutdown role and he went even against them 5on5 in a 7 games series.
Last year was a joke of a playoffs with the players being off for months and then jumping into a bubble and play-in series (not even BO7) with zero preparation

Yet Columbus still won. Team has to stop looking at excuses and win already.

 

[Beyonder91]

Marner hasn't played badly but at his cap hit he needs his play to show up on the scoreboard since you don't win game by x/goals .

Absolutely! I agree 100% with this.
My point is the line is playing well and the points will come.

 

[Stephen]

For example:
He largerly played against the best line in the league in 2017-18 & 2018-19. Also, in 2018-19 Babcock actively used his line in a shutdown role and he went even against them 5on5 in a 7 games series.
Last year was a joke of a playoffs with the players being off for months and then jumping into a bubble and play-in series (not even BO7) with zero preparation

And if we zoomed out to even more context, you’d find a couple hundred other guys who had to compete in a bubble format with the same preparation and restrictions as Marner last summer and were somehow able to compete at a high level and among them you’d find a lot of good young players who are also trusted with defensive roles, some who helped their teams win playoff rounds, conference championships and even the Stanley Cup.

What’s so unique about Marner’s experiences?

 

[Beyonder91]

Yet Columbus still won. Team has to stop looking at excuses and win already.

They did. I don't even think it's worthwhile discussing that series personally. It was a disaster on many levels.

No excuses this round though. The Leafs should not lose this series.

 

[Beyonder91]

And if we zoomed out to even more context, you’d find a couple hundred other guys who had to compete in a bubble format with the same preparation and restrictions as Marner last summer and were somehow able to compete at a high level and among them you’d find a lot of good young players who are also trusted with defensive roles, some who helped their teams win playoff rounds, conference championships and even the Stanley Cup.

What’s so unique about Marner’s experiences?

Nothing is unique about Marner's experiences. That's the whole point.
Montreal and Chicago both won their playin rounds and they were 12th place teams in their respective conferences. They shouldn't have even had a shot at the playoffs.
Arizona also shouldn't have been in the playoffs and won their playin round.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Keefe really needs to cool it with his Marner fetish. This is his second consecutive series being fed minutes and not living up to them. Scale him back to 17-18 minutes and make him earn the 22+ ice time with his play.

He is earning it with his play. The only reason his ice time is that high is because he has been playing ~2 minutes a game on the PK.

 

[Mickey Marner]

He is earning it with his play. The only reason his ice time is that high is because he has been playing ~2 minutes a game on the PK.

In the regular season he was. He hasn't been playing like a guy who should be getting borderline #1 defenseman minutes in the playoffs.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In the regular season he was. He hasn't been playing like a guy who should be getting borderline #1 defenseman minutes in the playoffs.

But that's just like, your opinion, man.

Marner is averaging more PK time in the playoffs than he was in the regular season.

To me he's an all around asset with the anticipation he has..

 

[Mickey Marner]

But that's just like, your opinion, man.

Marner is averaging more PK time in the playoffs than he was in the regular season.

To me he's an all around asset with the anticipation he has..

His ice-time distribution is similar to all-situations horses like Yzerman, Modano, Brind'Amour & O'Reilly when they were winning cups. If we're going to give him Conn Smythe contender minutes, I expect a Conn Smythe contender performance. Even Paul Marner wouldn't accuse Mitch of playing like those guys in either this series or last.

 

[Curt]

They are very equal in talent and draft position pedigree. I was huge Marner fan and on many occasions voiced my approval of the pick.
He hasn't disappointed with the contributìons he has made to the team thus far (the stats speak for themselves).
He is still growing into his body and roll with the team but for me to choose between Eichel and Mitch comes down to a few things.
1 Eichel is a natural center, Mitch I believe can play center as well. Eichel
2 Size difference, nothing to elaborate on there. Eichel
3 Speed not even close. Eichel
4 Major League Shot. Eichel
5 Vision and Creativity. Mitch
6 Less salary cap. Eichel
Taking all these factors into consideration the clear cut favorite is Eichel.
That shot alone tips the scales. Imagine him playing clean up on AM's feeds.
Eichel would have buried 80% of the looks Mitch gets. That muffin shot is just so not acceptable for a $11M player.
We all have our opinions but if a trade out had to happen to better the team, this one is a pure hockey trade that benefits both teams.

Eichel is soooo much better

 

[Curt]

This is become too large of a sample size.

Marner's last 3 playoffs:
17 games played, 2 goals, 10 points.

Over 82 that projects to 9 goals/47 points.

This is an 11 million dollar player. This is completely inexcusable.

I expect nothing short of a miraculous game from him tomorrow, or ship him out of town.

The Paul marner burner accounts can't handle the facts

 

[FrankGallagher]

There’s a whole lot of real estate between playing like a bum and playing like an 11 million dollar player. Marner hasn’t been terrible but he is playing nowhere near the superstar level he is paid to play at. The criticism of him is completely earned, I don’t know how anyone can defend the performance he has put in this series at his salary. Mitchy has gotta go out there and earn it

 

[Mess]

Keefe really needs to cool it with his Marner fetish. This is his second consecutive series being fed minutes and not living up to them. Scale him back to 17-18 minutes and make him earn the 22+ ice time with his play.

Some people believe more ice time = more production of which Keefe seems to be one of them, however some good coaches will tell you there is an optimal TOI/g to match maximum output and production potential with shorter shifts, leading to more energy per shift = more effectiveness overall.

Marner in his past 10 games under Keefe these past 2 years is playing his least effective playoff hockey with just 4 assists in 5 games each series YTD. There is no doubt there is a connection to that and his ~ 24 minutes ATOI/g workload which is excessive compared to most forwards in the NHL. Toss in that the opposition QofC has dropped against underdogs CBJ and MON as opposed to favourites WAS and BOS X 2 in the past, and we can rule out Marner's decline is not a result of facing better competition.

The most obvious way to attempt to increase his offensive impact is to remove him from the PK as those are hard minutes and also low productive ones when in a 4v5 situation. There are plenty of players in the bottom half of the roster that are better equipped to absorb PK duties, so that Marner can focus on ES and PP ones while playing 19-20 minutes a night at full speed as opposed to 24 minutes at 3/4 or 1/2 speed as he conserves energy as opposed to emptying the tank each and every shift . IMO

 

[Beyonder91]

The Paul marner burner accounts can't handle the facts

The irony of a burner account mentioning burner accounts

 

[ORRFForever]

By “context” you mean “excuses” for his lack of production. Three playoffs in a row.

Don't he and Matthews have the same point total?

Love how Matthews ALWAYS gets a pass.

 

[Beyonder91]

There’s a whole lot of real estate between playing like a bum and playing like an 11 million dollar player. Marner hasn’t been terrible but he is playing nowhere near the superstar level he is paid to play at. The criticism of him is completely earned, I don’t know how anyone can defend the performance he has put in this series at his salary. Mitchy has gotta go out there and earn it

Yet Matthews hasn't received nearly any criticism whatsoever...

 

[frizzer1]

Marner is one of the best penalty killers in the league.
Taking him off the pk to lower his minutes would look like a good idea until the goals start going in when he’s not there.

 

[Stephen]

There’s a whole lot of real estate between playing like a bum and playing like an 11 million dollar player. Marner hasn’t been terrible but he is playing nowhere near the superstar level he is paid to play at. The criticism of him is completely earned, I don’t know how anyone can defend the performance he has put in this series at his salary. Mitchy has gotta go out there and earn it

Exactly. Marner did a lot of great PK and forechecking work in Games 3 and 4 which can't be overlooked, but they also can't be oversold too much either, since those are items Alex Kerfoot is tasked with as well.

 

[Stephen]

Nothing is unique about Marner's experiences. That's the whole point.
Montreal and Chicago both won their playin rounds and they were 12th place teams in their respective conferences. They shouldn't have even had a shot at the playoffs.
Arizona also shouldn't have been in the playoffs and won their playin round.

Point is, I don't think we need more context, if the purpose of that context is to let Marner off the hook. For not being mentally prepared in the bubble, not scoring at the level he's paid to because he had other things to do, or keep insisting that he's living up to his contract and heads and shoulders better than guys from his free agent cohort like Rantanen, Point, Aho, Barzal or whomever costs less but does more of X, Y, Z. He's a great player, extremely productive player, frustrating player on a massive contract and it's his responsibility to try and live up to that every night.

 

[Beyonder91]

Point is, I don't think we need more context, if the purpose of that context is to let Marner off the hook. For not being mentally prepared in the bubble, not scoring at the level he's paid to because he had other things to do, or keep insisting that he's living up to his contract and heads and shoulders better than guys from his free agent cohort like Rantanen, Point, Aho, Barzal or whomever costs less but does more of X, Y, Z. He's a great player, extremely productive player, frustrating player on a massive contract and it's his responsibility to try and live up to that every night.

From a pure production standpoint he needs to do more. There's no denying that. The play is good enough that the points well come though.

The only reason I feel I need to post in these threads (and I really shouldn't bother) is because I read all the pure negativity and want to provide some context, substance and balance to the thread.

 

[TOGuy14]

For example:
He largely played against the best line in the league in 2017-18 & 2018-19. Also, in 2018-19 Babcock actively used his line in a shutdown role and he went even against them 5on5 in a 7 games series.
Last year was a joke of a playoffs with the players being off for months and then jumping into a bubble and play-in series (not even BO7) with zero preparation

What a load of crap this is.

Every player is going up against top lines when the playoffs roll around. Kucherov is going to have Barkov shadowing him all game, MacKinnon has to deal with O'Rielly, but guess what - stars get it done

And the whole bubble thing is dumb, every team went in with the same prep. Gamers and stars show up day in and day out.

 

[Garthinater]

Its funny how the Canadian player is getting so much more hate than the American player when they have the same amount of points.