Mitch Marner discussion thread continued ..

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I'm not sure how some other player scoring a goal (especially in a game 6 we haven't even played yet) is relevant to Marner or anything I said.

Though I could imagine what the reaction here would be if Marner was 5th in team scoring, behind the likes of Killorn, despite spending almost all of his time with the league's leading playoff scorer with almost twice as many points.

Your fun facts described defensive accomplishments that are a nice feather in the cap for a guy like Connor Brown providing stout PK minutes and dependability in a series from a middle six forward, but not a lot to write home about for a superstar player.

What we need are big goals and production from Mitch Marner especially in a close out game. I think that's fairly self evident.
 
Offseason trade:

Mitch Marner + Robertson for Eichel.

No other team can offer a player half as good as Marner in an Eichel trade and if Buffalo is going to keep guys like Dahlin it's not really a rebuild so much as a retool to trade a player who doesn't want to be there.

I am kind of done with his disappearing act in the playoffs. He's just afraid to get hit, makes plays in a hurry when he really has more time than he thinks he does.
 
Your fun facts described defensive accomplishments that are a nice feather in the cap for a guy like Connor Brown providing stout PK minutes and dependability in a series from a middle six forward, but not a lot to write home about for a superstar player. What we need are big goals and production from Mitch Marner especially in a close out game.
Actually, my fun facts described both offensive and defensive accomplishments, that are relevant for any player. It showed how he is generating opportunities and chances comparable to the very best stacked lines in the entire league. It showed that despite some bad luck in the tiny sample we have so far, he's still in a reasonable spot in team scoring. It showed that Marner has been defensively responsible and a beast on the PK; helping prevent goals against and helping the team come out on top in many different situations, during times when the goals aren't going in as much.

Are you saying that it's not important for superstar players to be defensively responsible?
Wasn't it you who was downplaying the importance of "glamourous numbers" not too long ago?

We had a big play from Marner to start the 3-goal comeback just last game, in a close-out game. I don't really see the issue with injecting some positivity into the runaway train of wildly exaggerated negativity that this thread has become.
 
Your fun facts described defensive accomplishments that are a nice feather in the cap for a guy like Connor Brown providing stout PK minutes and dependability in a series from a middle six forward, but not a lot to write home about for a superstar player.

What we need are big goals and production from Mitch Marner especially in a close out game. I think that's fairly self evident.

Not to mention we had Campbell playing great along with the defense playing very stout hockey (with the only problem guy being Sandin who Marner is rarely on the ice with at ES) that only gave up 4 goals in 4 games. I tend to credit the players who's primary role is to prevent goals against for great defensive results rather then wingers who naturally have the least defensive responsibility on the ice. Not to discredit Marner - just how hockey is.

None of these things would be brought up if Marner was actually bringing the offense he's paid to bring. But he's not, and it's the same weak excuses that have been brought up for multiple playoffs now that he hasn't showed up offensively.
 
You know I bet I know what the problem is with both Matthews and Mitch...they are encountering teams playing defence against them in the playoffs. Once teams remove this hinderance guaranteed they start producing.

You say it as a joke but that is what is going on. Montreal is keying on Matthews and Marner and smothering them.
That's why it's important to have depth in the playoffs.

It's called secondary scoring and we have it.
 
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Point/Kucherov and Mackinnon/Rantanen don't get smothered in the playoffs too?
They definitely do. Key difference between those players and our is when they are getting chances...they are putting it in the damn net. When you get breakaways and odd man rushes in the playoffs it has to end up in the back of the net. Ours dont and that is an issue.
 
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3 cups by 24 years old would be pretty incredible!
2 of Crosby's were at 29 & 30 years old. We still got some time.

Why are you comparing 34 year old Crosby performances to 24 year old Marner?

When Crosby was 20 he put up 27 points in 20 games and 31 points in 24 games (with 15 goals to boot) to win a cup a year later
 
Of course Matthews gets a pass.. That is suppose to be the way it is, as he is our best sniper.

Heck the whole Leafs team is ALWAYS trying to get him the pass, as that's the game plan. :wg:

Now if Mitch was doing his job better, and giving Matthews the pass, then his assist and point totals would go up. Unfortunately the opposition is not co-operating as their game plan is to provide extra defensive attention to AM, and so you take away Marner's passing outlets and let him shoot instead and the end results are what this thread are complaining about in lack of results.
Very true. Mitch needs to shoot more - he really needs to work on this in the off season. It is the reason why I don't want Marner on Team Canada - we already have far too many play makers. Okay... MAYBE as the 14th forward.
 
Very true. Mitch needs to shoot more - he really needs to work on this in the off season. It is the reason why I don't want Marner on Team Canada - we already have far too many play makers. Okay... MAYBE as the 14th forward.
His shot will not improve much. It's not like he's never practiced it before.
 
Not to mention we had Campbell playing great along with the defense playing very stout hockey (with the only problem guy being Sandin who Marner is rarely on the ice with at ES) that only gave up 4 goals in 4 games. I tend to credit the players who's primary role is to prevent goals against for great defensive results rather then wingers who naturally have the least defensive responsibility on the ice. Not to discredit Marner - just how hockey is.

None of these things would be brought up if Marner was actually bringing the offense he's paid to bring. But he's not, and it's the same weak excuses that have been brought up for multiple playoffs now that he hasn't showed up offensively.

I find that when he tries to be too fancy (blind passes..no lookers behind the back..etc) that he sucks. If he just plays a simple game and shoots when he has the chance instead of trying to be on the highlight reels...he does well. He goes through this period every season where he tries to get too 'artistic' with his play and it suffers.

Hyman has the puck so much because Matthews is being crowded constantly with them shading to Marner to prevent a pass to AM. Hyman seems like his stick is borrowed from Z. Chara's hockey bag. It looks like he is playing with a stick 1ft too long for him. He cannot stick handle in tight and it makes his contributions almost non existent.
 
Offseason trade:

Mitch Marner + Robertson for Eichel.

No other team can offer a player half as good as Marner in an Eichel trade and if Buffalo is going to keep guys like Dahlin it's not really a rebuild so much as a retool to trade a player who doesn't want to be there.

I am kind of done with his disappearing act in the playoffs. He's just afraid to get hit, makes plays in a hurry when he really has more time than he thinks he does.
I don't understand why we'd be adding for a player who will save Buffalo $25M with 1 less year on his contract. Especially when Eichel wants out and Mitch has no desire and there's no other team who can offer a player at or above Eichels level with that kind of tenure and future.
 
Bridge would have been great. Sign him 2 years and whats the worse that will happen? He gets the same deal hes got now?
I wanted to bridge both Nylander and Marner. I didn't like the negotiations. I would have lost a bit with Nylander and gained a lot with Marner.

I also think the players were looking for max money to play for Babcock and may not have been as money focussed with Keefe.

I also got luck with the covid pandemic which is driving down salaries
 
The reason Matthews gets a pass is that it is almost impossible for a GM to come up with a scenario where removing him makes the team better. He is #1 Centre. There are probably realistic scenarios for a GM to remove Marner and makes some moves with the trade return + cap space that does improve the team.

That said this is a better topic for the offseason. The Leafs are going to beat the habs, and should beat the Jets. I'd wait until the playoffs are over until seriously questioning Marner's future. He is a great player and hopefully can find a way to be as dangerous in the playoffs as regular season.
 
Fun Fact #1: Three lines dominate the top of the xGF leaderboard this playoffs. Colorado's top line, Boston's top line, and Toronto's top line. They are dominating play and getting chances.
Fun Fact #2: Marner is tied for 2nd on the team in non-EN production (and primary production) this series.
Fun Fact #3: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against at ES.
Fun Fact #4: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against on the PK, despite being the most played forward there.
Defensive specialists make closer to league minimum than 11 million dollars.

There's a reason you've never seen a 20 point forward "defensive specialist" sign an $80 million contract.

Marner is paid to be an offensive specialist while being defensively responsible. Not a defensive specialist who can't produce on the score sheet.
 
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I'm not sure how some other player scoring a goal (especially in a game 6 we haven't even played yet) is relevant to Marner or anything I said.

Though I could imagine what the reaction here would be if Marner was 5th in team scoring, behind the likes of Killorn, despite spending almost all of his time with the league's leading playoff scorer with almost twice as many points.
No, if Marner had 4 goals/6 points in 6 games, nobody would care if Kerfoot had more points than him.
 
Bridge would have been great. Sign him 2 years and whats the worse that will happen? He gets the same deal hes got now?
If we had signed him to a bridge, and this unforeseen global pandemic didn't suddenly stagnate the cap, he would have unquestionably received a higher cap hit this offseason than he has right now, and the cap hit discrepancy would have likely had negligible impact on the team quality and results over the bridge period.
 
Marner is not a "defensive specialist". He's an amazing offensive and defensive player, who contributes in many ways in all situations.
If you're relying on those type of stats to rationalize an 11 million dollar forward, you know something is really really wrong.

I assure you that nobody is pointing to (lol) "5 on 5 defensive goals against" when talking about Aho/Rantanen/Point/Mackinnon/etc. this offseason.
 
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If we had signed him to a bridge, and this unforeseen global pandemic didn't suddenly stagnate the cap, he would have unquestionably received a higher cap hit this offseason than he has right now, and the cap hit discrepancy would have likely had negligible impact on the team quality and results over the bridge period.
And maybe with the extra cap space these last few years we'd be celebrating a cup parade while Marner signs his new contract.

I don't think anybody on the Lightening right now is saying "We really screwed up in bridging Point. We have to pay him more next year." Nope. Instead of complaining about such things, they're celebrating cup victories.
 
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If you're relying on those type of stats to rationalize an 11 million dollar forward, you know something is really really wrong.
If you're relying exclusively on raw basic stat numbers and nothing else to come to conclusions about players, especially over tiny samples, you know something is really really wrong with your evaluation methods. Though you must be relying on something else, to rationalize holding Point up as the gold standard, and treating Marner like some bum who should be kicked off the team, essentially based off of the difference of one singular point.
And maybe with the extra cap space these last few years we'd be celebrating a cup parade
How exactly? You think a couple million dollars cap space was the difference between winning the cup or not over the past couple years?
I don't think anybody on the Lightening right now is saying "We really screwed up in bridging Point. We have to pay him more next year."
Tampa didn't have a choice. They were forced into a bridge. I'm sure many are wishing that they had been able to sign him long term.
 
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