Mitch Marner discussion thread continued ..

[Stephen]

From a pure production standpoint he needs to do more. There's no denying that. The play is good enough that the points well come though.

The only reason I feel I need to post in these threads (and I really shouldn't bother) is because I read all the pure negativity and want to provide some context, substance and balance to the thread.

At the end of the day, the 7th highest cap hit in the sport is going to come with high expectations and a good series for Connor Brown is probably not going to cut it, especially if the team doesn't have the results it's looking for. I think the player can embrace this challenge and try to live up to those expectations, I think the last thing we want is for excuses.

 

[Beyonder91]

What a load of crap this is.

Every player is going up against top lines when the playoffs roll around. Kucherov is going to have Barkov shadowing him all game, MacKinnon has to deal with O'Rielly, but guess what - stars get it done

And the whole bubble thing is dumb, every team went in with the same prep. Gamers and stars show up day in and day out.

That line has taken the Bruins to the Cup final 3 times now. They are by far the best in the league. Bergeron has 4 Selke's and is almost a guaranteed finalist every year. We aren't talking just any random top line.

And you're right the bubble was dumb but better than no hockey at all.

 

[Beyonder91]

At the end of the day, the 7th highest cap hit in the sport is going to come with high expectations and a good series for Connor Brown is probably not going to cut it, especially if the team doesn't have the results it's looking for. I think the player can embrace this challenge and try to live up to those expectations, I think the last thing we want is for excuses.

If you want to simply look at the stat line at the end of each game by all means do that. I'm going to continue watching the games and will comment on what I am seeing in threads like this and what I am seeing on the ice.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Don't he and Matthews have the same point total?

Love how Matthews ALWAYS gets a pass.

Earlier today I posted in the Matthews thread specifically asking why he’s getting a pass.

 

[Gallagbi]

Once again you provide ZERO context
Seems to be your MO

Isn't the context over those 3 series that he faced 2 borderline playoff teams that were lucky to be in a unique situation leading them to a playoff spot? That one series, last (CLB), was by far the worst hes played when he had more time than any other year to prepare and focus? And in that same year he said he wasn't as ready as he should have been? It's a series he didn't score in and barely created any offense at all despite having the best linemates he's ever been beside?

He absolutely faced tough competition in that B's series, but it covered one of the 3 series and it was also the year our PK was horrific. The PK unit he played heavily on with a one legged Hyman.

Currently were seeing him face a poor Habs team that is heavily overplaying Matthews shot. That's left him time and space to operate, but he hasn't been able to finish. They're literally allowing him to walk in on Price because they'd rather give up those opportunities than risk a Matthews opportunity.

I think Mitch has really picked up things the last 3 games, but I don't think context is your friend for these poor stats. I should correct the initial stats as well he has 2-10-12 in the last 3 series (17GP). So it is actually a 10 goal, 58 point pace - which isn't quite as bad as the original claim

 

[ORRFForever]

Earlier today I posted in the Matthews thread specifically asking why he’s getting a pass.

Fair enough. I did not see that.

TBH, I wasn't directed my comment at just you.

 

[Beyonder91]

Isn't the context over those 3 series that he faced 2 borderline playoff teams that were lucky to be in a unique situation leading them to a playoff spot? That one series, last (CLB), was by far the worst hes played when he had more time than any other year to prepare and focus? And in that same year he said he wasn't as ready as he should have been? It's a series he didn't score in and barely created any offense at all despite having the best linemates he's ever been beside?

Saying he had more time than any other year to prepare is a really strange way to look at it considering we were in a lockdown, with everyone concerned for their health and the health of others, and he wasn't even playing hockey for months. Maybe he could have been more prepared from a fitness standpoint but there is no substitute for playing games and they jumped right into the playoffs. There is a reason there were so many upsets in the first round.

Currently were seeing him face a poor Habs team that is heavily overplaying Matthews shot. That's left him time and space to operate, but he hasn't been able to finish. They're literally allowing him to walk in on Price because they'd rather give up those opportunities than risk a Matthews opportunity.

I think Mitch has really picked up things the last 3 games, but I don't think context is your friend for these poor stats. I should correct the initial stats as well he has 2-10-12 in the last 3 series (17GP). So it is actually a 10 goal, 58 point pace - which isn't quite as bad as the original claim.

I personally think part of the problem is Hyman has had the puck on his stick too much which fits right into Montreal's game plan of defending the line by jamming up the middle and keeping the puck to the outside. Hyman circles around with the puck and ultimately turns it over or goes for his patented wrap around. His head is always down so he is not able to execute any passes to Marner or Matthews. Marner and Matthews prefer to be moving the puck around quickly together and with the points to confuse and create space/opportunites and Hyman has been prohibiting them from doing that too much so far IMO. The line is still dominating but our best players need to have the puck more.
The line is playing well enough that the points will eventually come.

Anyways, I am just repeating myself over and over. I'll check out of this thread unless anything new is brought up.

 

[Stephen]

If you want to simply look at the stat line at the end of each game by all means do that. I'm going to continue watching the games and will comment on what I am seeing in threads like this and what I am seeing on the ice.

By all means. But when you say context and Marner's positives in this series are basically good game habits like high energy level and defensively responsible which all players on successful playoff teams need to be anyway, you're not really setting the bar very high. I didn't really outline what an acceptable stats line for Marner should be, because I find his stats to usually be at the bottom of concerns...

What I want to see are obvious signs where he is controlling and dominating the offensive side of the game and driving the Leafs to victory in a way that even a hockey newbie will appreciate. To me, he doesn't look like a $10 million + player.

 

[Gallagbi]

Saying he had more time than any other year to prepare is a really strange way to look at it considering we were in a lockdown, with everyone concerned for their health and the health of others, and he wasn't even playing hockey for months. Maybe he could have been more prepared from a fitness standpoint but there is no substitute for playing games and they jumped right into the playoffs. There is a reason there were so many upsets in the first round.

Which is the same position everyone else was in. So he enters fully healthy, on a clean slate, not banged up and in his home rink.

Everyone was dealing with Covid concerns, he isn't alone and it's not an excuse for his awful play vs. CLB

I personally think part of the problem is Hyman has had the puck on his stick too much which fits right into Montreal's game plan of defending the line by jamming up the middle and keeping the puck to the outside. Hyman circles around with the puck and ultimately turns it over or goes for his patented wrap around. His head is always down so he is not able to execute any passes to Marner or Matthews. Marner and Matthews prefer to be moving the puck around quickly together and with the points to confuse and create space/opportunites and Hyman has been prohibiting them from doing that too much so far IMO. The line is still dominating but our best players need to have the puck more.
The line is playing well enough that the points will eventually come.

Anyways, I am just repeating myself over and over. I'll check out of this thread unless anything new is brought up.

Hymans not himself or on their level currently. My issues with Mitch are largely the first few games if this series where he was just simply poor and the CLB series in all honesty. Lately he's been getting good looks and simply needs to put the puck in. He's making better decisions lately and better shots

My point, originally, is more that "context" for these continued issues won't alleviate any of the pressure or concerns. Most of the context will actually heighten it.

 

[Beyonder91]

By all means. But when you say context and Marner's positives in this series are basically good game habits like high energy level and defensively responsible which all players on successful playoff teams need to be anyway, you're not really setting the bar very high. I didn't really outline what an acceptable stats line for Marner should be, because I find his stats to usually be at the bottom of concerns...

What I want to see are obvious signs where he is controlling and dominating the offensive side of the game and driving the Leafs to victory in a way that even a hockey newbie will appreciate. To me, he doesn't look like a $10 million + player.

and I'm viewing a player that is out there in all situations and IS having a positive/controlling effect on the game as advanced stats tell us as well as my eyes

Also, your "$10M dollar player" is not a fair assessment in the context you are using it. You should be looking at the % of cap a contract was for at the time of signing for a more accurate representation when comparing different players across the league. Then there are the individual cap situations of certain teams which can have effect on what players sign for. I'm too lazy at the moment to do that research. Not to mention he is the 3rd highest paid player on this team...

 

[Beyonder91]

Which is the same position everyone else was in. So he enters fully healthy, on a clean slate, not banged up and in his home rink.

Everyone was dealing with Covid concerns, he isn't alone and it's not an excuse for his awful play vs. CLB

Exactly. It wasn't in any way a normal playoffs and shouldn't be held against the players.
That play-in was a complete crap shoot with both 12th place seeds winning as well as one of the 11th place seeds. These are teams that shouldn't even be in the playoffs.

 

[Kiwi]

Earlier today I posted in the Matthews thread specifically asking why he’s getting a pass.

He shouldn't get a pass either, we need both these guys going if we want to beat the Habs then go on an extended run

Your best guys need to be your best guys

 

[Gallagbi]

Exactly. It wasn't in any way a normal playoffs and shouldn't be held against the players.
That play-in was a complete crap shoot with both 12th place seeds winning as well as one of the 11th place seeds. These are teams that shouldn't even be in the playoffs.

Could we also say that Edmonton and Pittsburg are also just some flawed teams and that showed up again this playoffs.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Tsn said Marner hasn’t scored in 16 playoff games. 16 games wow. Should be ashamed to wear that crest

 

[Beyonder91]

Could we also say that Edmonton and Pittsburg are also just some flawed teams and that showed up again this playoffs.

Crosby had 2 points in 6 games. How bad is he?
The best player in the league only had 1 goal and got swept. Trade him!

 

[Gallagbi]

Crosby had 2 points in 6 games. How bad is he?
The best player in the league only had 1 goal and got swept. Trade him!

Crosby's been awful in the recent playoffs and that's led to them going out easily in those series. They should be looking at some changes.

Mind you I think Marner would get a little more leeway with 3 cups and a Conn Smythe, but I could be crazy there

 

[Beyonder91]

Crosby's been awful in the recent playoffs and that's led to them going out easily in those series. They should be looking at some changes.

Mind you I think Marner would get a little more leeway with 3 cups and a Conn Smythe, but I could be crazy there

3 cups by 24 years old would be pretty incredible!
2 of Crosby's were at 29 & 30 years old. We still got some time.

 

[Gallagbi]

3 cups by 24 years old would be pretty incredible!
2 of Crosby's were at 29 & 30 years old. We still got some time.

Here's hoping...but were a cup behind and another run or two given where he was at this age.

But we all know Mitch isn't Crosby

 

[supermann_98]

Agreed. The fact that people are blaming Marner is extremely confusing to me.

Zero goals in his last 16 playoff games, does that clear up the confusion?

 

[Peasy]

Crosby had 2 points in 6 games. How bad is he?
The best player in the league only had 1 goal and got swept. Trade him!

What a terrible argument lol.

The situations with crosby and Marner are nowhere near similar. If only Marner was as successfully as crosby at the same age we wouldn't be saying shit.

 

[Mess]

Don't he and Matthews have the same point total?

Love how Matthews ALWAYS gets a pass.

Of course Matthews gets a pass.. That is suppose to be the way it is, as he is our best sniper.

Heck the whole Leafs team is ALWAYS trying to get him the pass, as that's the game plan.

Now if Mitch was doing his job better, and giving Matthews the pass, then his assist and point totals would go up. Unfortunately the opposition is not co-operating as their game plan is to provide extra defensive attention to AM, and so you take away Marner's passing outlets and let him shoot instead and the end results are what this thread are complaining about in lack of results.

 

[Bomber0104]

He needs to start putting the puck away.

The chances have been there but we won't win series with guys getting 20+ minutes a night and no goals to show for it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Fun Fact #1: Three lines dominate the top of the xGF leaderboard this playoffs. Colorado's top line, Boston's top line, and Toronto's top line. They are dominating play and getting chances.
Fun Fact #2: Marner is tied for 2nd on the team in non-EN production (and primary production) this series.
Fun Fact #3: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against at ES.
Fun Fact #4: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against on the PK, despite being the most played forward there.

 

[Stephen]

Fun Fact #1: Three lines dominate the top of the xGF leaderboard this playoffs. Colorado's top line, Boston's top line, and Toronto's top line. They are dominating play and getting chances.
Fun Fact #2: Marner is tied for 2nd on the team in non-EN production (and primary production) this series.
Fun Fact #3: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against at ES.
Fun Fact #4: Marner has not been on the ice for a goal against on the PK, despite being the most played forward there.

A goal like this in a series clinching victory would be a lot more fun:

 

[Dekes For Days]

A goal like this in a series clinching victory would be a lot more fun:

I'm not sure how some other player scoring a goal (especially in a game 6 we haven't even played yet) is relevant to Marner or anything I said.

Though I could imagine what the reaction here would be if Marner was 5th in team scoring, behind the likes of Killorn, despite spending almost all of his time with the league's leading playoff scorer with almost twice as many points.