Mitch Marner discussion continues

[saffronleaf]

If anyone is a star its Marner's agent, but I'm not so fast to label him that, because Gary Coleman could dunk on Dubas at the negotiating table.

Wouldn't be surprised if Dubas offered Marner 14m x 5 years

 

[TMLAM34]

I will look for links if I can when I get a chance. But for now please look around 6:34 for the little blurb about Rielly

Rielly signed back in 2016, Odog mentioned he signed a great deal to keep the team together… That’s right when Matthews was drafted…. We were last place….

To keep the team together he signed a great deal? TO KEEP THE TEAM TOGETHER. They finished with the 1st overall pick, why on earth would you want to keep a team like that together?

That’s just a bunch of analysts trying to get something from nothing. Rielly was paid accordingly at the time. The only reason it was good was because it was 5 years, so maybe he gave the team an extra year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I've never said that once, ever.

You're suggesting that these 4 players cannot learn from past mistakes/failures and will always be what they were previously so you have to trade one of the big four. You're suggesting that Dubas will not build more balance in his roster so he has to trade one of the big four.

I'm suggesting that vitriol directed towards Marner is idiotic. That is it , that is all

So let's let our first-time nhl gm, with his first-time nhl coach, under the guidance of a first-time nhl President... let's let them all continue their historically unprecedented experiment of 4 forwards taking up half the cap even after endless humiliations and a pandemic that rid the cap flat.

I'm at a loss at this point.

I honestly and truly don't believe that anybody making such an argument is doing so in good faith.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

So let's let our first-time nhl gm, with his first-time nhl coach, under the guidance of a first-time nhl President... let's let them all continue their historically unprecedented experiment of 4 forwards taking up half the cap even after endless humiliations and a pandemic that rid the cap flat.

I'm at a loss at this point.

I honestly and truly don't believe that anybody making such an argument is doing so in good faith.

You will hear the 'Be patient' ...'look at the Red Wings'...'we would lose any trade if we traded one of the big 4' etc....

It's all so tiresome at this point. I don't mind the trying out the theory of 4 forwards making so much money...its the fact that it isn't working and they are oblivious to it. Saying we have good depth because Spezza potted a few goals while Engvall and Soupy did nothing makes me laugh. We have some serious issues with depth in that we are below league avg for the most part by signing spare parts every year. No continuity and no real winning signing except for Spezza.

 

[Bluelines]

At looking foolish? Yes you've nailed it

.... but but why one set of rules for one player and another set of rules for another player? The criteria was set for judging a players suck level = have not advanced past first round in the last 3 seasons? = suck... run him out of town.... does that criteria not fit Draisatl and McDavid too? How can you propose to be a fair and honest person if you only selectively apply rules when it is convenient for your argument... I guess if you follow the pseudo leaf fan logic... it makes sense .... Marner is an over paid baby because he is a regular season king and playoff wuss ... I guess the same rules apply to McDavid ... don't they....? No? Why.... hypocrisy? Ahhhh ... hypocrisy ...

I guess fairness and honesty are not something mobs have an abundance of ... carry on, Oh... you dropped your pitch fork.

 

[Bluelines]

So let's let our first-time nhl gm, with his first-time nhl coach, under the guidance of a first-time nhl President... let's let them all continue their historically unprecedented experiment of 4 forwards taking up half the cap even after endless humiliations and a pandemic that rid the cap flat.

I'm at a loss at this point.

I honestly and truly don't believe that anybody making such an argument is doing so in good faith.

So are you saying people have the inability to learn from past experience? People are just a flat line of knowledge, you get to a certain point and you never evolve? What you did yesterday is as good as you can do today, tomorrow 20 years down the road?

 

[shortfuze]

You will hear the 'Be patient' ...'look at the Red Wings'...'we would lose any trade if we traded one of the big 4' etc....

It's all so tiresome at this point. I don't mind the trying out the theory of 4 forwards making so much money...its the fact that it isn't working and they are oblivious to it. Saying we have good depth because Spezza potted a few goals while Engvall and Soupy did nothing makes me laugh. We have some serious issues with depth in that we are below league avg for the most part by signing spare parts every year. No continuity and no real winning signing except for Spezza.

who says they are oblivious? who says they arent making trades because they arent happy with the value they are getting in return? so lets hear what you would do to make the team better if all youre getting is pennies on the dollar for the big 4.

 

[socko]

When is part 2?

I've never watched Part 1. I'm not sure if I can handle the vomit inducing factor of it. Should I give it a go?

 

[Trapper]

What would you rather have, regular season performance or playoff performance?

Regular season hands down from the look of it.

But even regular season, zero PP goals all year? Guess we are just going to look past that.

Nylander would be fired in a rocket ship to deep space for that and he makes 4 million less.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Mitch is good for at least 82 points next year if he's healthy. Problem is that it's not much use if the playoff struggles continue.

Will he eventually figure it out? Maybe, but we don't have much time to sort this out, and at 11M, it's not a wait and see to perform. You need to be that 11M guy in the playoffs right now.

Takes guts to bring this core back, and possibly even more to move on and admit it's not going to happen.

 

[Mess]

You will hear the 'Be patient' ...'look at the Red Wings'...'we would lose any trade if we traded one of the big 4' etc....

It's all so tiresome at this point. I don't mind the trying out the theory of 4 forwards making so much money...its the fact that it isn't working and they are oblivious to it. Saying we have good depth because Spezza potted a few goals while Engvall and Soupy did nothing makes me laugh. We have some serious issues with depth in that we are below league avg for the most part by signing spare parts every year. No continuity and no real winning signing except for Spezza.

Having good solid depth is about rolling 3 or 4 lines with the possibility of contributing of regularly, not have a top heavy roster and playing them 24 minutes and then a bunch of scrubs making $750k-$1 mil. Then when your stars get shutdown you expect your scrubs to carry their water and lead the team on in the playoffs.

I've used this example before.

NYI acquire JG Pageau at the TD 2 years ago for playoff depth and pay him $5 mil AAV to centre your 3 line, and he produces in 36 games 11 - 13 - 24 points
vs
Leafs star player Auston Matthews who at $11.6 mil AAV has a career totals of 32 games 13 goals 11 assists 24 points of 5 playoff seasons or Mitch Marner @ $10.9 mil AAV in 32 games has 5-20-25 points.

When a teams 3rd line centre making < 1/2 the Cap produces at the same rate as Leafs star players do as the highest paid in the game its not hard to see what true team depth is all about tied to team success. If you tie cap $$ to production Leafs star player would need to double the production of another teams 3rd line players making 1/2.

Its not hard to see why TB will soon be hoisting their 2nd straight Cup.

Brayden Point last 2 playoffs @ $6.75 mil = 44 games 28 goals 28 assists for 56 points
vs
Matthews 32 games 13 goals 11 assists 24 points & Marner 32 games 5-20-25 points [= 64 games 18 goals 31 assists = 49 points] combined career for > $22 mil Cap.

Leafs 2 X Star players can't do in +20 more man games statistically combined what a player making 2/3 their cap hit can by himself. How can you compete with that?

 

[socko]

When you abuse an imposter GM and take money that no UFA superstar winger has ever approached. And you haven't scored in 18 playoff games. And you're in the center of the hockey universe. Yeah, nobody should be surprised.

I will say it was a mistake on Marner's part to not add more years. This is one case where inflation will not be matching the overpay. Bad move.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

.... but but why one set of rules for one player and another set of rules for another player? The criteria was set for judging a players suck level = have not advanced past first round in the last 3 seasons? = suck... run him out of town.... does that criteria not fit Draisatl and McDavid too? How can you propose to be a fair and honest person if you only selectively apply rules when it is convenient for your argument... I guess if you follow the pseudo leaf fan logic... it makes sense .... Marner is an over paid baby because he is a regular season king and playoff wuss ... I guess the same rules apply to McDavid ... don't they....? No? Why.... hypocrisy? Ahhhh ... hypocrisy ...

I guess fairness and honesty are not something mobs have an abundance of ... carry on, Oh... you dropped your pitch fork.

If the Oilers had two other forwards who altogether take up half the cap with McDrai, they would most certainly be considering a trade. One of them would likely be run out of town at this point.

Similarly, if the leafs only had cheap forwards other than Matthews/Marner, we’d be looking for new ways to work around them as opposed to trading one of them.

 

[socko]

If the Oilers had two other forwards who altogether take up half the cap with McDrai, they would most certainly be considering a trade. One of them would likely be run out of town at this point.

Similarly, if the leafs only had cheap forwards other than Matthews/Marner, we’d be looking for new ways to work around them as opposed to trading one of them.

I think there are legit questions about how Connor McDavid's game translates to the playoffs. But this desperation Hail Mary from the losing team is just pathetic. McDavid just destroyed the rest of the league this year and Draisaitl beat Matthews to 50 goals.

 

[ToneDog]

Firing Keefe shows the coach was not the problem and points the finger at Dubas.

Firing Dubas shows that his vision was wrong and points the finger to Shinny who said he was behind him 100%.

Trade one of the big 4 shows you can't win with half the cap going to 4 forwards.

So MLSEL decides to stand pat and give these clowns another kick at the can.

What a shit show MLSEL has become.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

who says they are oblivious? who says they arent making trades because they arent happy with the value they are getting in return? so lets hear what you would do to make the team better if all youre getting is pennies on the dollar for the big 4.

You know what? You're right...I don't know if they are oblivious for sure...but what I do know is they didn't even entertain the idea of moving one of them or making big changes. Had Dubas said that "ANYTHING is on the table"...I would retract my statement. Saying anything is on the table doesn't force you to make a bad trade. It just sends a subtle message that we might be open to something if the price is right.

What I heard at the end of season pressers is that we are going to be patient and keep doing what we think will work. That to me looks like they don't see MM's contract as a problem in acquiring depth players (By that I mean good 2nd and 3rd line players)....so I guess we disagree on their thought process.

 

[shortfuze]

You know what? You're right...I don't know if they are oblivious for sure...but what I do know is they didn't even entertain the idea of moving one of them or making big changes. Had Dubas said that "ANYTHING is on the table"...I would retract my statement. Saying anything is on the table doesn't force you to make a bad trade. It just sends a subtle message that we might be open to something if the price is right.

What I heard at the end of season pressers is that we are going to be patient and keep doing what we think will work. That to me looks like they don't see MM's contract as a problem in acquiring depth players (By that I mean good 2nd and 3rd line players)....so I guess we disagree on their thought process.

but we dont know if what he said is true or not. the GM doesnt have to tell the fans that he is open for business. if hes talking to other GM's he doesnt have to announce it.

i think this team is flawed and needs some change but the off season really hasnt started yet. even though the fans dont think it will work or hasnt worked yet doesnt mean it cant work but someone really needs to light a fire under their asses because this past season was a big let down.

 

[IPS]

What are McDavids points in the SCF? Ahhh... ...

McDavid scores a lot in the regular season = McJesus
Marner scores a lot in the regular season = What a spoiled brat...

Did I get it right?

McDavid averages over a PPG in the playoffs...

 

[IPS]

Apples with apples. Look at the same team played.
Beyond what I posted,.....
Games,Hits, Hits-Taken
Point 3, 2, 6
Marner 7,9, 20

Looks like Point is a bit soft compared to Mitch....all things being equal.

How do you figure Marner would look in a series against the Islanders?

How about against Boston in 2017-2018...and I can assure you Marner wasnt playing with a Kucherov type player.

7 points in 5 games and he went head to head against Patrice Bergeron where his team won the series in 5 games?!

 

[Notsince67]

How do you figure Marner would look in a series against the Islanders?


7 points in 5 games and he went head to head against Patrice Bergeron where his team won the series in 5 games?!

Yeah...Marner had 9, more hits and way more hits taken

 

[IPS]

Yeah...Marner had 9, more hits and way more hits taken

Ok?

And going head to head against Bergeron and winning isn't more impressive than some silly hits stats?

 

[Racer88]

We'll get em next year!
Am I real leaf fan now?

Only if you start analyzing things on a higher level….

 

[ShaneFalco]

McDavid averages over a PPG in the playoffs...

 

[Notsince67]

Ok?

And going head to head against Bergeron and winning isn't more impressive than some silly hits stats?

Keep up. The context is the willingness of Point to play tough hockey in the dirty areas relative to Marner.
There is nothing that indicates Point plays a more physical game and shies away less from contact.
Still waiting for the +25% shooting percentage btw. What's happening? bad luck?

 

[socko]

Pump up your boy? Last time I checked he was on the Leafs, if you are fan of the Leafs he should be a guy we root for. I'm sorry I thought this was a forum for Leaf FANS ... my mistake.. carry on bashing a 24 year old boy who scored 1.22 points per game last season...

If you have a flat tire on your car, do you change it? Or do you root for it to keep taking you from A to B because it's part of the car? And end up needing a new aluminum rim too.