Mitch Marner discussion continues

[Carltons Cup]

Marner doesn't like the fact that he doesn't get paid in the Playoffs. To him:

No Pay = No Play

 

[Mess]

A guy who has put up the same number of playoff points in this current playoffs as Marner has his whole NHL career will get a pass for a quiet 3 games…

Its almost comical in fact when people use Brayden Point as a comparable for Marner as a defense for Mitch.

In 23 playoff games last year Point scored 14 goals, and in 21 playoff games this year he has 14 again, because despite his small stature he fearless plays in traffic and goes to the dirty areas and does whatever it takes to win. Marner hasn't scored a playoff goal in 18 games dating across 3 playoff seasons, because he plays a soft perimeter game and tries to avoid contact at all cost.

So over the course of the last 2 playoff years Point has outscored Marner 28-0, but since he hasn't scored a goal in the last few games that makes him similar to Marner again as a comparison.

PS. Since Point is a team player, he took a 3 year bridge deal at $6.75 mil AAV and TB is on the verge of 2nd Stanley Cup as a result.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Apples with apples. Look at the same team played.
Beyond what I posted,.....
Games,Hits, Hits-Taken
Point 3, 2, 6
Marner 7,9, 20

Looks like Point is a bit soft compared to Mitch....all things being equal.

Thanks bud, that made my day.

 

[Gary Nylund]

As much as I have railed on Mitch, I do feel some sympathy from him here - cutting ties with an abusive/toxic parent is never easy. I'm 26 and even I struggle to find the most diplomatic way to tell my parents to chill out (albeit they are loving and far from toxic). Hell, remember Jack Johnson? Poor guy's parents bled him completely dry of all his money and abused power of attorney to put him in debt, and he didn't have a clue. Regardless, at some point, I feel like the team has to step in and tell him "it's either your camp or it's the Leafs. Pick one". And this isn't even solely related to his family or his agent - his security detail was sending hostile DM's to media members who criticized Mitch or his agent. It seems like he just has a serious knack for finding the worst people to surround himself with.

That said, that still doesn't even broach the biggest gorilla on his back which is his very visible inability to handle pressure, and unlike his camp or family... call me pessimistic, but I don't see a resolution to that that involves Mitch staying in Toronto. To me, the well has been irreversibly poisoned with this latest playoff flop. The reality of the situation is, he. created such a massive undercurrent of pressure and eroded his status as fan favorite before the ink even dried on his new contract. And we've already seen how bad he is at handling pressure - if anything, it seems like he's regressed in his ability to handle it. Extremely poor body language, crying in the box after a bad penalty, being really defensive when asked what he can do to improve... he's cracked under pressure before, but never this badly.

Mitch struggled to handle the pressure in 19-20. He eventually rebounded under Keefe but then had a bad playoff run. The noise never really went away during that season, but it got quieter because we had bigger things impact our lives (pandemic). Then this year, he had a great regular season and the noise went even quieter... only for him to shit the bed in the playoffs and for that noise to come back louder than ever. The worst part for Mitch? that noise isn't going away until next April. Nothing he can do to make it go away between now and April of 2022. The pressure is not going to die down anytime soon now. There's no pandemic or time to heal and lick our wounds. Nothing to distract us. He has to learn to live with the noise and the bed he made for himself in Toronto and I ultimately don't think he's gonna be able to - I haven't seen any sign of him progressing in this regard. There's a nasty vicious cycle that's been in play since that contract was signed. He put pressure on himself which he can't live up to -> he doesn't live up to the pressure, which causes the noise and pressure to persist and grow -> repeat. The only way he can break this cycle is by performing in the playoffs... but that's when the pressure peaks and he just hasn't shown to be capable of handling it, and that's ignoring his fatal flaw that gets exposed in the playoffs as a hockey player (can't shoot/not at all a threat to blow one by the goalie). He's basically the hockey Ben Simmons, and the Sixers seem to no longer be in denial about it. The Leafs need to stop being stubborn and in denial about it.

Deep down, I think we all know how this ends. He has another underwhelming playoff performance and gets traded, the Leafs almost certainly lose that trade, and he ends up thriving somewhere where he's not under the insane microscope and pressure he's under here. But despite the Leafs being in a virtually no win situation in a Marner trade, I doubt they accomplish shit with him in his current state. To me, this is a mutually toxic marriage that is headed for divorce and that every party is just currently in denial.

Agree with all this, nice post. I would only add that Mitch doesn't have to "cut ties" with his dad, only to take control of his own life. Make it clear to his dad that he would love to still rely on him for advice when he needs/wants it but that doesn't mean he will act on it and he will make his own decisions period.

There is one way for the Mitch/Leafs relationship to work out but unfortunately its a pipe dream as it requires playoff success and considering next season will be much harder than the softie they just fanned on, it's impossible to have any confidence in them having success next time around.

I agree that this marriage is doomed and the sooner they get a divorce, the better.

 

[Notsince67]

Its almost comical in fact when people use Brayden Point as a comparable for Marner.

In 23 playoff games last year Point scored 14 goals, and in 21 playoff games this year he has 14 again, because despite his small stature he fearless plays in traffic and goes to the dirty areas and does whatever it takes to win. Marner hasn't scored a playoff goal in 18 games dating across 3 playoff seasons, because he plays a soft perimeter game and tries to avoid contact at all cost.

So over the course of the last 2 playoff years Point has outscored Marner 28-0, but since he hasn't scored a goal in the last few games that makes him similar to Marner again as a comparison.

We might as well fault Eichel for 0 playoff points in 6 years because not getting into the playoffs shouldnt be an excuse for an individual player just because the team isnt good enough to make it.
Good golly. You really want to cherry pick playoffs only?
You think Point was resting in the regular season?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

His teammates outside of Matthews won’t defend him either.

Why would they defend him? He took money out of everyone's pockets. That does not make a dressing room overly united in their cause.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We might as well fault Eichel for 0 playoff points in 6 years because not getting into the playoffs shouldnt be an excuse for an individual player just because the team isnt good enough to make it.
Good golly. You really want to cherry pick playoffs only?
You think Point was resting in the regular season?

What would you rather have, regular season performance or playoff performance?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Agree with all this, nice post. I would only add that Mitch doesn't have to "cut ties" with his dad, only to take control of his own life. Make it clear to his dad that he would love to still rely on him for advice when he needs/wants it but that doesn't mean he will act on it and he will make his own decisions period.

There is one way for the Mitch/Leafs relationship to work out but unfortunately its a pipe dream as it requires playoff success and considering next season will be much harder than the softie they just fanned on, it's impossible to have any confidence in them having success next time around.

I agree that this marriage is doomed and the sooner they get a divorce, the better.

It was doomed the moment the contract was signed

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed. Time for Mitch to grow a pair and tell his old man to STFU. It was actually time for that long ago and the fact that Mitch has yet to do it is 100% on him.

Grow a pair Mitch, better late than never.

His father hasn't been involved for a while now. He stepped back when near the end of the contract negotiations.

 

[Stephen]

Apples with apples. Look at the same team played.
Beyond what I posted,.....
Games,Hits, Hits-Taken
Point 3, 2, 6
Marner 7,9, 20

Looks like Point is a bit soft compared to Mitch....all things being equal.

Do a side by side between Marner and Point’s stats in the two Columbus series last year while you’re at it. Make sure to include the scoring stats too.

 

[Gary Nylund]

His father hasn't been involved for a while now. He stepped back when near the end of the contract negotiations.

You mean he stepped back when the job was basically done?

 

[ACC1224]

You mean he stepped back when the job was basically done?

Yes.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yep lets hope we don't have the 4th highest scoring player in the league last year, awesome perspective there sport.

You know, this is largely about the fact that the unprecedented experiment of half the cap on 4 forwards isn't working.

It would make the most sense to move Tavares, but the nmc. More bang for your buck with the Nylander contract. Matthews is Matthews. That leaves Marner.

Your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter that we keep losing in humiliating fashion following this unprecedented experiment. Those 4 players are 'good at ice hockey' so you don't trade them. It's more important to have 4 good forwards than to have a good team.

 

[Brobust]

What would you rather have, regular season performance or playoff performance?

It's not one or the other.

Like Babcock said, you just have to play enough for your stars to get going.

 

[Mess]

Marner at $10.9 mil cap produces in the playoffs 7 games 0-4-4 points like you would expect from any 4th line depth player making $ 1 mil or less like say Alex Galchenyuk 6 games 1-3-4 points or $750k Spezza 7 games 3-2-5 points, only without the goals that is.

The fact that he got 24:43 ATOI/g playoff minutes a night, and gets to ride shotgun with the Rocket Richard winner to achieve those totals, while those 4 liners got less than 12:00 ATOI/g and produce similar if not better only emphasizes how bad this situation is.

This is not like its a one year anomaly either as it now 3 consecutive poor playoffs.

2018-19 - 7 games 2-2-4 points @ 20:35 TOI/g
2019-20 - 5 games 0-4-4 points @ 24:39 TOI/g
2020-21 - 7 games 0-4-4 points @ 24:43 TOI/g

Marner has not developed into a leader to lift the Leafs Up, but his contract and his play has become a boat anchor to bring the Leafs Down.

 

[Peasy]

What would you rather have, regular season performance or playoff performance?

I think its clear which one notsince67 prefers, its whichever one makes Marner look better

If Marner had an amazing pre season I bet he would be talking about that forever. Hell, hes grabbing at every straw he can to try and prop up Marner. Imagine talking about hits taken to try and prove a point that hes not soft and tougher than point . Its comical at this point.

Sadly we will have to wait until Marner is a no show in the playoffs again for notsince67 to chill with the ridiculous arguments and hide from the forums.

 

[socko]

Marner at $10.9 mil cap produces in the playoffs 7 games 0-4-4 points like you would expect from any 4th line depth player making $ 1 mil or less like say Alex Galchenyuk 6 games 1-3-4 points or $750k Spezza 7 games 3-2-5 points, only without the goals that is.

The fact that he got 24:43 ATOI/g playoff minutes a night, and gets to ride shotgun with the Rocket Richard winner to achieve those totals, while those 4 liners got less than 12:00 ATOI/g and produce similar if not better only emphasizes how bad this situation is.

This is not like its a one year anomaly either as it now 3 consecutive poor playoffs.

2018-19 - 7 games 2-2-4 points @ 20:35 TOI/g
2019-20 - 5 games 0-4-4 points @ 24:39 TOI/g
2020-21 - 7 games 0-4-4 points @ 24:43 TOI/g

How does one Kyle Dubas still have a job? Does he have some really compromising pictures of someone?

 

[Notsince67]

Do a side by side between Marner and Point’s stats in the two Columbus series last year while you’re at it. Make sure to include the scoring stats too.

How about against Boston in 2017-2018...and I can assure you Marner wasnt playing with a Kucherov type player.

 

[Bluelines]

You know, this is largely about the fact that the unprecedented experiment of half the cap on 4 forwards isn't working.

It would make the most sense to move Tavares, but the nmc. More bang for your buck with the Nylander contract. Matthews is Matthews. That leaves Marner.

Your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter that we keep losing in humiliating fashion following this unprecedented experiment. Those 4 players are 'good at ice hockey' so you don't trade them. It's more important to have 4 good forwards than to have a good team.

I've never said that once, ever.

You're suggesting that these 4 players cannot learn from past mistakes/failures and will always be what they were previously so you have to trade one of the big four. You're suggesting that Dubas will not build more balance in his roster so he has to trade one of the big four.

I'm suggesting that vitriol directed towards Marner is idiotic. That is it , that is all

 

[Stephen]

How about against Boston in 2017-2018...and I can assure you Marner wasnt playing with a Kucherov type player.

I believe we already put up a statue for Mitch on Legends Row for that playoff series?

 

[tronoleaf]

As much as I have railed on Mitch, I do feel some sympathy from him here - cutting ties with an abusive/toxic parent is never easy. I'm 26 and even I struggle to find the most diplomatic way to tell my parents to chill out (albeit they are loving and far from toxic). Hell, remember Jack Johnson? Poor guy's parents bled him completely dry of all his money and abused power of attorney to put him in debt, and he didn't have a clue. Regardless, at some point, I feel like the team has to step in and tell him "it's either your camp or it's the Leafs. Pick one". And this isn't even solely related to his family or his agent - his security detail was sending hostile DM's to media members who criticized Mitch or his agent. It seems like he just has a serious knack for finding the worst people to surround himself with.

That said, that still doesn't even broach the biggest gorilla on his back which is his very visible inability to handle pressure, and unlike his camp or family... call me pessimistic, but I don't see a resolution to that that involves Mitch staying in Toronto. To me, the well has been irreversibly poisoned with this latest playoff flop. The reality of the situation is, he. created such a massive undercurrent of pressure and eroded his status as fan favorite before the ink even dried on his new contract. And we've already seen how bad he is at handling pressure - if anything, it seems like he's regressed in his ability to handle it. Extremely poor body language, crying in the box after a bad penalty, being really defensive when asked what he can do to improve... he's cracked under pressure before, but never this badly.

Mitch struggled to handle the pressure in 19-20. He eventually rebounded under Keefe but then had a bad playoff run. The noise never really went away during that season, but it got quieter because we had bigger things impact our lives (pandemic). Then this year, he had a great regular season and the noise went even quieter... only for him to shit the bed in the playoffs and for that noise to come back louder than ever. The worst part for Mitch? that noise isn't going away until next April. Nothing he can do to make it go away between now and April of 2022. The pressure is not going to die down anytime soon now. There's no pandemic or time to heal and lick our wounds. Nothing to distract us. He has to learn to live with the noise and the bed he made for himself in Toronto and I ultimately don't think he's gonna be able to - I haven't seen any sign of him progressing in this regard. There's a nasty vicious cycle that's been in play since that contract was signed. He put pressure on himself which he can't live up to -> he doesn't live up to the pressure, which causes the noise and pressure to persist and grow -> repeat. The only way he can break this cycle is by performing in the playoffs... but that's when the pressure peaks and he just hasn't shown to be capable of handling it, and that's ignoring his fatal flaw that gets exposed in the playoffs as a hockey player (can't shoot/not at all a threat to blow one by the goalie). He's basically the hockey Ben Simmons, and the Sixers seem to no longer be in denial about it. The Leafs need to stop being stubborn and in denial about it.

Deep down, I think we all know how this ends. He has another underwhelming playoff performance and gets traded, the Leafs almost certainly lose that trade, and he ends up thriving somewhere where he's not under the insane microscope and pressure he's under here. But despite the Leafs being in a virtually no win situation in a Marner trade, I doubt they accomplish shit with him in his current state. To me, this is a mutually toxic marriage that is headed for divorce and that every party is just currently in denial.

 

[Bluelines]

Yet he only has 4 shots in 3 games against the Habs and zero goals.

I thought he scored in the first game? My memory could be off.

 

[Stephen]

Its almost comical in fact when people use Brayden Point as a comparable for Marner as a defense for Mitch.

In 23 playoff games last year Point scored 14 goals, and in 21 playoff games this year he has 14 again, because despite his small stature he fearless plays in traffic and goes to the dirty areas and does whatever it takes to win. Marner hasn't scored a playoff goal in 18 games dating across 3 playoff seasons, because he plays a soft perimeter game and tries to avoid contact at all cost.

So over the course of the last 2 playoff years Point has outscored Marner 28-0, but since he hasn't scored a goal in the last few games that makes him similar to Marner again as a comparison.

PS. Since Point is a team player, he took a 3 year bridge deal at $6.75 mil AAV and TB is on the verge of 2nd Stanley Cup as a result.

There are a few players around the league I’m a big fan of individually but don’t really care about their teams. If you can accept that logic I think a lot of opinions start to make more sense.

 

[Mess]

I thought he scored in the first game? My memory could be off.

No he didn't score, but he only set up 3 of the goals though in the game #1 win.

 

[Notsince67]

I believe we already put up a statue for Mitch on Legends Row for that playoff series?

Cherry picking stats is a real problem. By every "objective" criteria spewed here, except perhaps a salary one (and that will end in a year after Point asks for more than the 9MM qualifying offer to sell ufa years), Point is a bum like Marner if you compare apples with apples.
The grass isnt always greener