Mitch Marner discussion continues

[Dreakmur]

Mitch is a grown man. I dont really understand the obsession with his father. Go after him if you like but if there is valid criticism, it should go to Mitch who would make the final decision.
I'm surprised people haven't gone after his mom for doing the fortnite dance in the stands awhile back. This place is beyond ridiculous.

Grown men don’t have their dad’s complaining to the coaches about their ice time and line mates.

 

[Bluelines]

Is that your actual belief on the game of hockey?

LOL no, it was 100% sarcasm.

 

[Notsince67]

Grown men don’t have their dad’s complaining to the coaches about their ice time and line mates.

We all have the burden of parents and I say this after clocking in for more than half a century on this earth. It is the one thing you cannot control. Love them but you kind of start figuring out that they arent infallible at 13 years old.

 

[Bluelines]

Brayden Point apparently still has a ways to go before he catches Marner, but even he’s proving that you don’t need to choose between points or hits from a small skill guy. Hell, the throws in goals and playoff points too…

And he plays on a team that is better balanced and better coached than the Leafs, which gives him the luxury to play vs the other teams less skilled checkers. In the Montreal series he is getting Danault's line and in three of the 5 games has no points. He racked up points in the blow out game. The devil is in the details.

 

[Bluelines]

Hopefully, we'll find out next season.

Yep lets hope we don't have the 4th highest scoring player in the league last year, awesome perspective there sport.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Imagine if back in the 80s leaf fans had boycotted the terrible teams. Maybe we wouldn't be going on 50+ years without a cup.

Fans need to stop buying maple leafs merchandise and stop attending games. Maybe then the management will realize that enough is enough.

I've never understood this argument. It's clear the organization wants to win and has tried pretty much every imaginable coaching/GM/president combination as well as having spent as much or more than any team in the league trying to do so. I have no doubt the ownership group is as frustrated as any Leaf fan.

 

[Notsince67]

And he plays on a team that is better balanced and better coached than the Leafs, which gives him the luxury to play vs the other teams less skilled checkers. In the Montreal series he is getting Danault's line and in three of the 5 games has no points. He racked up points in the blow out game. The devil is in the details.

Yup. The balance issue is not in doubt. The details of the cause is the area of contention. I would submit that a keefe coached Tampa team would have had similar problems regardless of talent. That said, he seems like a reflective kind of person and I'm hoping that he has learned that balance is a key.
I was thinking on the thread asking if the Leafs would have won with Tavares. I voted yes but upon reflection, I'm having doubts because I didnt compute the likelihood that keefe would have stacked the first with another go at JT, AM and MM. In such a scenario, I think they would have lost again.

 

[Bluelines]

Yup. The balance issue is not in doubt. The details of the cause is the area of contention. I would submit that a keefe coached Tampa team would have had similar problems regardless of talent. That said, he seems like a reflective kind of person and I'm hoping that he has learned that balance is a key.
I was thinking on the thread asking if the Leafs would have won with Tavares. I voted yes but upon reflection, I'm having doubts because I didnt compute the likelihood that keefe would have stacked the first with another go at JT, AM and MM. In such a scenario, I think they would have lost again.

I agree 100%

He's at best the 7th best coach in the East, maybe the 10th best coach, if you think Sullivan with 2 cups, Vigneault with 714 wins (8th all time) and Laviolette 613 wins (12th all time) are better ...

1) Trots
2) Quenneville
3) Cassidy
4) Cooper
5) Brind'Amour
6) Gallant
7) Keefe (?)

Sullivan (Pitts), Vigneault (Philly), Laviolette (Wash)

 

[Notsince67]

I agree 100%

He's at best the 7th best coach in the East, maybe the 10th best coach, if you think Sullivan with 2 cups, Vigneault with 714 wins (8th all time) and Laviolette 613 wins (12th all time) are better ...

1) Trots
2) Quenneville
3) Cassidy
4) Cooper
5) Brind'Amour
6) Gallant
7) Keefe (?)

Sullivan (Pitts), Vigneault (Philly), Laviolette (Wash)

He is inexperienced. His longevity will be related to how well he learns. TBH, I like his temperament. He seems highly reflective. This doesnt excuse his decisions but there is a decent chance that he gets better with this.
I have been thinking on what to look for next year to indicate that he has made adjustments.

1. Penalties approach league average....a reflection that physicality has gone up.
2. Wins in the beginning arent as volumous. ....This seems counter intuitive but forcing a new style on the team should take time. If it's easy, it probably hasnt deviated much from the prior year and a half.
3. Increased scoring chances on the rush or dump in...puck control hockey is good as a part of a tool box but you need to keep the other team guessing. Holding the puck up for all 5 players to get into the play allows for trap hockey.

 

[ACC1224]

Grown men don’t have their dad’s complaining to the coaches about their ice time and line mates.

You think that’s what happens?

 

[ER89]

Datsyuk ended up getting like 15% of the cap...

ENDED up. He put up 16 pts in 18 games in the playoffs making almost nothing. He got paid after he performed when it counted. And then kept on doing so. STUPID example.

 

[ACC1224]

I've never understood this argument. It's clear the organization wants to win and has tried pretty much every imaginable coaching/GM/president combination as well as having spent as much or more than any team in the league trying to do so. I have no doubt the ownership group is as frustrated as any Leaf fan.

People often confuse incompetence with indifference.

 

[Plural]

The shot over the glass shows his immaturity and selfishness.... the amount of time he took to corral the puck and throw it into the air he could've easily simply dumped it by just slapping into open territory but instead he had be "extra" as usual and try to impress everyone with his ability to toss it high up in the air.

Recommend turning the volume off on the clip

[YT]

Sorry to crash in this sub-forum. Just wanted to look on Marner news and stumbled upon this. Yeah, that was quite bad.


Anyways, he's still a premier winger in the game and if the stars don't align with the Leafs, you guys can always get kings ransom by trading him. Dude is a legit superstar , although bit lacking in the playoffs still, but I bet a lot of teams are willing to take him off your hands.

 

[Dreakmur]

ENDED up. He put up 16 pts in 18 games in the playoffs making almost nothing. He got paid after he performed when it counted. And then kept on doing so. STUPID example.

I didn’t say he wasn’t good. I was correcting somebody who said he never made close to what Marner did.

 

[Dreakmur]

We all have the burden of parents and I say this after clocking in for more than half a century on this earth. It is the one thing you cannot control. Love them but you kind of start figuring out that they arent infallible at 13 years old.

When will Paul figure it out?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Mitch is a grown man. I dont really understand the obsession with his father. Go after him if you like but if there is valid criticism, it should go to Mitch who would make the final decision.
I'm surprised people haven't gone after his mom for doing the fortnite dance in the stands awhile back. This place is beyond ridiculous.

Agreed. Time for Mitch to grow a pair and tell his old man to STFU. It was actually time for that long ago and the fact that Mitch has yet to do it is 100% on him.

Grow a pair Mitch, better late than never.

 

[Stephen]

And he plays on a team that is better balanced and better coached than the Leafs, which gives him the luxury to play vs the other teams less skilled checkers. In the Montreal series he is getting Danault's line and in three of the 5 games has no points. He racked up points in the blow out game. The devil is in the details.

Point doesn’t go in to high traffic areas to generate offense and hit on the forecheck because he plays on a better team.

It’s because he’s a dogged competitor who doesn’t make a distinction between things he can do to help his team and something that should be reserved for a 3rd or 4th liner.

 

[socko]

We are in the company of a genius………lol.
Just ask him he will tell you

 

[Notsince67]

Point doesn’t go in to high traffic areas to generate offense and hit on the forecheck because he plays on a better team.

It’s because he’s a dogged competitor who doesn’t make a distinction between things he can do to help his team and something that should be reserved for a 3rd or 4th liner.

Yet he only has 4 shots in 3 games against the Habs and zero goals.

 

[Stephen]

Yet he only has 4 shots in 3 games against the Habs and zero goals.

A guy who has put up the same number of playoff points in this current playoffs as Marner has his whole NHL career will get a pass for a quiet 3 games…

 

[ShaneFalco]

A guy who has put up the same number of playoff points in this current playoffs as Marner has his whole NHL career will get a pass for a quiet 3 games…

The amount of excuses and attempts at flawed comparisons is ..... just weird around here

 

[Swervin81]

Agreed. Time for Mitch to grow a pair and tell his old man to STFU. It was actually time for that long ago and the fact that Mitch has yet to do it is 100% on him.

Grow a pair Mitch, better late than never.

As much as I have railed on Mitch, I do feel some sympathy from him here - cutting ties with an abusive/toxic parent is never easy. I'm 26 and even I struggle to find the most diplomatic way to tell my parents to chill out (albeit they are loving and far from toxic). Hell, remember Jack Johnson? Poor guy's parents bled him completely dry of all his money and abused power of attorney to put him in debt, and he didn't have a clue. Regardless, at some point, I feel like the team has to step in and tell him "it's either your camp or it's the Leafs. Pick one". And this isn't even solely related to his family or his agent - his security detail was sending hostile DM's to media members who criticized Mitch or his agent. It seems like he just has a serious knack for finding the worst people to surround himself with.

That said, that still doesn't even broach the biggest gorilla on his back which is his very visible inability to handle pressure, and unlike his camp or family... call me pessimistic, but I don't see a resolution to that that involves Mitch staying in Toronto. To me, the well has been irreversibly poisoned with this latest playoff flop. The reality of the situation is, he. created such a massive undercurrent of pressure and eroded his status as fan favorite before the ink even dried on his new contract. And we've already seen how bad he is at handling pressure - if anything, it seems like he's regressed in his ability to handle it. Extremely poor body language, crying in the box after a bad penalty, being really defensive when asked what he can do to improve... he's cracked under pressure before, but never this badly.

Mitch struggled to handle the pressure in 19-20. He eventually rebounded under Keefe but then had a bad playoff run. The noise never really went away during that season, but it got quieter because we had bigger things impact our lives (pandemic). Then this year, he had a great regular season and the noise went even quieter... only for him to shit the bed in the playoffs and for that noise to come back louder than ever. The worst part for Mitch? that noise isn't going away until next April. Nothing he can do to make it go away between now and April of 2022. The pressure is not going to die down anytime soon now. There's no pandemic or time to heal and lick our wounds. Nothing to distract us. He has to learn to live with the noise and the bed he made for himself in Toronto and I ultimately don't think he's gonna be able to - I haven't seen any sign of him progressing in this regard. There's a nasty vicious cycle that's been in play since that contract was signed. He put pressure on himself which he can't live up to -> he doesn't live up to the pressure, which causes the noise and pressure to persist and grow -> repeat. The only way he can break this cycle is by performing in the playoffs... but that's when the pressure peaks and he just hasn't shown to be capable of handling it, and that's ignoring his fatal flaw that gets exposed in the playoffs as a hockey player (can't shoot/not at all a threat to blow one by the goalie). He's basically the hockey Ben Simmons, and the Sixers seem to no longer be in denial about it. The Leafs need to stop being stubborn and in denial about it.

Deep down, I think we all know how this ends. He has another underwhelming playoff performance and gets traded, the Leafs almost certainly lose that trade, and he ends up thriving somewhere where he's not under the insane microscope and pressure he's under here. But despite the Leafs being in a virtually no win situation in a Marner trade, I doubt they accomplish shit with him in his current state. To me, this is a mutually toxic marriage that is headed for divorce and that every party is just currently in denial.

 

[Notsince67]

A guy who has put up the same number of playoff points in this current playoffs as Marner has his whole NHL career will get a pass for a quiet 3 games…

Apples with apples. Look at the same team played.
Beyond what I posted,.....
Games,Hits, Hits-Taken
Point 3, 2, 6
Marner 7,9, 20

Looks like Point is a bit soft compared to Mitch....all things being equal.

 

[socko]

The amount of excuses and attempts at flawed comparisons is ..... just weird around here

I find the comparisons quite humorous.

 

[PromisedLand]

I would love if you could provide any link mentioning how Rielly took less in order to keep the team together in 2016. As Trump would say, fake news.

I will look for links if I can when I get a chance. But for now please look around 6:34 for the little blurb about Rielly