Salary Cap: Mitch Marner Contract Discussion Part VIII | We Waitin'

[The CyNick]

If the competitors were under the same collective bargaining agreement and the competitors employees were under the same union... it would change things quite a bit...

Sort of. But many teams have their own internal salary structure. So you can't always compare across teams.

Kuch was made the highest paid player on Tampa. Circumstance is just such that Tampa can get away with a lower salary structure than other teams.

Chicago made Kane the highest paid player on their team. But the Kuch and Kane numbers were different.

If a player like Aho wants to stay in Carolina there's a good chance he would have to accept less money (assumption on my part that Carolina won't go big game hunting).

Point is, it's not uniform across the league.

 

[MattySnipes]

Because they ate teammates.

Think of any job. If you have someone that works next to you and is begging paid way more than you, you will compare your salary to them more then someone from a competitor.

Bad analogy, tbh. In the league now most comparables are on different teams. I don't see how Auston is his comparable. They both play different positions. Auston at center is a whole different animal than comparing to a winger. Just seems bizarre to me.

Seems like the agent and father feel that's his comparable which is idiotic, tbh. Seems like a ploy just to get more cash. Feel bad for Mitch, I think this negotiation has been all his dad and agent. Mitch is just the talent lurking in the back. He should speak up.

 

[Mess]

Food for thought comparing Leafs current RFA spending to NHL cap usage.

Kapanan and AJ just resigned for ~$7 mil combined and Marner is asking for $11 mil to sign = $18 mil cap.

Lets compare that to other teams.

TB: Kucherov ($9.5 mil) + Stamkos ($8.5 mil) = $18 mil Cap
PIT: Malkin ($9.5 mil) + Crosby ($8.7 mil) = $18.2 Cap
WAS: OV ($9.54 mil) + Kuz ($7.8 mil) = $17.34 mil
BOS: Entire top line = $19.6 mil

So Leafs new RFA signings are going to be for about the same amount of cap as Eastern conference top players and their competition for the Cup in the playoffs.

 

[janesy12]

Can someone explain to me why Mitch feels Auston is his only comparable? Thanks.

It's been an issue since he was drafted. (The issue being his father).
Apparently there were issues over the entry level deal that Marner's camp felt like he should get the same structured deal as a 1st overall pick would, including all the bonuses. He didn't get it.
Once Matthews was signed to a normal 1stOA entry level deal, apparently the Marner's weren't pleased with that either. Feeling slighted yet again.

Then came the Captaincy talk. Paul Marner got up in arms about this because Mitch's name wasn't mentioned with Matthews, Tavares, Rielly etc.

Now Mitch needs a new contract and the Marner's feel like they want to be the #1 star in Toronto. THE guy. The highest paid Leaf, along with the most important piece and face of the franchise. Along with being the Captain.

Jesus if Kawhi signs a max contract the Marner's will want a that identical deal.

People can say whatever they want, but at no point during the entire Nylander situation did he threaten to leave the team, or seek options elsewhere. Hell the guy wanted assurance from Dubas he'd be a Maple Leaf for a long time. He never let it go sour, they kept relatively quiet until the deal was signed. Was it a perfect situation? No, but at least he didn't use the media (Dreger) and threaten a worldwide Offer Sheet tour until he gets his Matthews contract.

Dubas/Leafs need to hold firm on this one. Mitch has all kinds of advertisement/sponsorship deals in Toronto/Canada. Do you honestly think that
A) A team offers him $10.5+ and surrenders 4 1st round picks
B) He is actually willing to leave his home town Leafs, probably giving up his advertisement and sponsorship deals?

If he wants to look for offersheets then go for it. If he can sign one, great. Be prepared to leave. It isn't going to happen. Sign a deal with the Leafs, or an offer sheet with some other team, or sit.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Sort of. But many teams have their own internal salary structure. So you can't always compare across teams.

Kuch was made the highest paid player on Tampa. Circumstance is just such that Tampa can get away with a lower salary structure than other teams.

Chicago made Kane the highest paid player on their team. But the Kuch and Kane numbers were different.

If a player like Aho wants to stay in Carolina there's a good chance he would have to accept less money (assumption on my part that Carolina won't go big game hunting).

Point is, it's not uniform across the league.

Marner ignoring every other contract in league history and ONLY using Matthews a a comparable would be pretty much unprecedented. These players are all under the same cba and union.

 

[The CyNick]

Leafs want to keep all 3 of them.

Kap and Johnny have verbal agreements.

Nothing signed yet because they need to keep cap space for a crazy offer sheet for Marner.

Not saying they match a crazy offer sheet but they want that option.

Right so the marner point speaks to the point I'm making. They still expect to sign marner. Which is what the Marleau trade signaled to me. And likely to the marner camp, which improves their position.

 

[The CyNick]

Marner ignoring every other contract in league history and ONLY using Matthews a a comparable would be pretty much unprecedented. These players are all under the same cba and union.

Every contract is unique. If this went to an arb hearing, Marner would get the matthews deal.

 

[The CyNick]

Bad analogy, tbh. In the league now most comparables are on different teams. I don't see how Auston is his comparable. They both play different positions. Auston at center is a whole different animal than comparing to a winger. Just seems bizarre to me.

Seems like the agent and father feel that's his comparable which is idiotic, tbh. Seems like a ploy just to get more cash. Feel bad for Mitch, I think this negotiation has been all his dad and agent. Mitch is just the talent lurking in the back. He should speak up.

That's just your opinion though.

Why did Kuch negotiate a higher deal than his centre teammate in Stamkos in Tampa if centers are so much more valuable?

 

[TheTotalPackage]

You know what bugs me? A player squeezes the team for more dough and all should be forgiven after the deal gets done.

What if Dubas was to squeeze Mitch and say hey go solicit offers but if you don't get as good as we are offering -- our offer is going down? This is our best offer next week it won't be that good.

All's fair in negations right? It's just business right? No hard feelings!

I've generally been pro-ownership/management/GM.

But players can sign a fair value contract, be given a NTC/NMC, but the team would have no problem tomorrow throwing them overboard. Just as the team looks out for number one, I don't blame the players for doing so either. Loyalty is dead these days, and like you say, it's just business.

I have no problems with Marner holding firm in his demands. He saw how the Nylander and Matthews negotiations played out. He wants his own too. Don't see why he should cave to Dubas now and made the example when this is the team's third go round.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Considering Marner has massively outproduced Kucherov up to their respective U22 seasons, and that Kucherov will likely regret signing the deal he did, a 8x10 would be a bargain.

Not to mention Jeff freaking skinner just sign at 8x9. Marner at 8x10 is a steal!

Let’s go back to this original post then.
What does Kucherov will regret signing his contract have to do with anything? Why bring this up?

Won’t Buffalo’s gm likey regret signing Skinner to that contract?

Does that mean both can’t be used as comparables? What exactly is your point here?

 

[ACC1224]

Can someone explain to me why Mitch feels Auston is his only comparable? Thanks.

Not only but closest.

Someone explained it to me like this, not sure I agree with it.

Matthews and Marner are like the Leafs two children.
When buying them presents at Christmas you try and spend the same amount on each.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Every contract is unique. If this went to an arb hearing, Marner would get the matthews deal.

I don’t believe that is true for a second.

Dubas would heavily lean on the Kucherov contract.

 

[MattySnipes]

That's just your opinion though.

Why did Kuch negotiate a higher deal than his centre teammate in Stamkos in Tampa if centers are so much more valuable?

Stamkos isn't a TOP centre anymore. Point has taken him over tbh. Matthews is already better than Stamkos.

 

[Sypher04]

Matthews got moved to the top pp unit last year. His pp goals and points was only slightly better than his rookie year (granted, in 12 or so less games).
But still. We're not talking a ground breaking difference in numbers here. Not enough to warrant the outrageous 11.6x5 contract.

Early on our powerplay moved the puck well and was every bit as dynamic as everyone, then they somehow became predictable trying to force every play through Marner and Rielly

 

[MattySnipes]

Not only but closest.

Someone explained it to me like this, not sure I agree with it.

Matthews and Marner are like the Leafs two children.
When buying them presents at Christmas you try and spend the same amount on each.

Hahaha well that's not bad, but I don't agree either. Position and roles matter on a team. It's not all about sexy point totals.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Ok Paul



lol

Do do dodo do do do do do do do

 

[ACC1224]

Hahaha well that's not bad, but I don't agree either. Position and roles matter on a team. It's not all about sexy point totals.

I think it more explains how each player views one another and their standing in the room.

Does anyone think Matthews will feel slighted if Marner gets similar money?

 

[ACC1224]

Saw that Leonard is meeting with the Clippers next week.
Guessing that's expected and ok?

 

[therealkoho]

The best thing is, is that Marner will sign pretty much the deal he want's pretty soon and proudly wear the B&W, and knowing he will leave it all on the ice every night because he plays for the team he grew up cheering for, even though enduring all the mediocre teams he had to watch, he still believed in them. Mitch also believes that he can be the guy to bring it home to TO and knows what a great thing that would be.

all you faithless fanboy's will be giddy with delight and sing you're hossanna's that Marner is Leaf again.....and never give a second thought to all the S*** you've been talking about him for the past month

no wonder most of the players here can barely tolerate the media and fan base

oh and btw if anything, stop given that idiot Dreger clicks, he hates the Leafs more then Hughson, and because of that stop giving him validation

 

[MattySnipes]

I think it more explains how each player views one another and their standing in the room.

Does anyone think Matthews will feel slighted if Marner gets similar money?

He's a classy guy. He won't let it be shown publicly but behind the scenes it'll cause a problem. Goal-scoring centres get paid more than play-making wingers. It's how it's been in hockey. It should stay that way.

 

[MattySnipes]

Saw that Leonard is meeting with the Clippers next week.
Guessing that's expected and ok?

Yeah, he's UFA. Earned the right. Still feel he re-signs with us.

 

[ACC1224]

He's a classy guy. He won't let it be shown publicly but behind the scenes it'll cause a problem. Goal-scoring centres get paid more than play-making wingers. It's how it's been in hockey. It should stay that way.

Don't agree at all.

 

[ACC1224]

Yeah, he's UFA. Earned the right. Still feel he re-signs with us.

Why is it ok for UFA and not RFA?

 

[Mess]

FYI:

Something that probably a lot of people don't realize how Marleau connects to Marner, more than just free cap space.

Some people are saying if Marner's OS is too high then take the comp picks, and then turn around and OS someone else (Rantanen, Point etc) to replace him.

The flaw with that line of thinking is that the CBA states specifically it must be your own draft picks to qualify for a valid OS and you can't use other teams.

So those thinking this Marner OS will cause a chain reaction of OS potentially, its not happening in terms of our Leafs anyways, because Leafs dealt their 2020 or 2021 pick away in the Marleau deal which now disqualifies Toronto for the next 2 years from submitting any OS themselves that would involve a 1st round pick as compensation.

 

[MyBudJT]

Let’s go back to this original post then.
What does Kucherov will regret signing his contract have to do with anything? Why bring this up?

Won’t Buffalo’s gm likey regret signing Skinner to that contract?

Does that mean both can’t be used as comparables? What exactly is your point here?

If some of your closer comparables sign contracts that they go on to hate... why would you sign the same/similar contract? Why would you expect the player to be willing to sign such a contract?

It DOES work both ways too, so yes... Buffalo will likely regret the Skinner contract. A GM can't say: "Schiefele gets 6, you must get 6" and an agent can't say "Skinner got 9, so we must get 9". No, you look at the big picture.

The point I was making is that 8x11 would likely be fair value for Marner, still. Accounting for inflation, and given that there is a very good chance that Kucherov's services will be worth much more than the salary he's earning, and that Marner has demonstrated to be a better player at this respective stage of their careers (U22 season), etc... there are a lot of rational and logical reasons Marner can demand such a contract.