HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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How many goalies should make the final list?

  • Final list of 60, Round 1 list submission of 80

    Votes: 21 75.0%
  • Final list of 80, Round 1 list submission of 100

    Votes: 7 25.0%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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NYC
www.youtube.com
Lol. Beezer was not C+. He was A-/B+.
My "A" list is only 9 players long and I'm back into the 1930's on film right now. I don't think Beezer is gonna get to "A" haha

B+ puts him with Dryden, Bower, Brimsek, and Parent. I don't think that's a match either...

EDIT: To Sentinel: We're not ranking "heroes". Whether they have big, illegal equipment or whether they get slightly out played by Kirk McLean in the Final. I don't expect many lists to have Cam Ward, Bill Ranford, Matt Murray, or Mike Karakas either...
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,368
9,593
NYC
www.youtube.com
Unrelated: Before the War, and therefore, well before television...the NHL didn't care at all if you had two teams wearing dark jerseys or two teams wearing white jerseys. That has added an element of complexity to the 100+ film reels and clips I'm going through...

I can officially say I've actually seen the New York Americans, the Montreal Maroons, and, uhh, Tiny Thompson in action...in motion. This nerdiest day I've had in a while haha
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
29,495
17,585
Boys, I'm so sorry to do this...

I really do not like (I won't say "hate", but maybe...) Tony Esposito.

That brings me to this unfortunateness...

The Art of In Goaltending

I was at the Armory - a prominent (formerly, more prominent) New York City art fair - last weekend. At one of the booths, I took note of a large abstract-inspired piece that was clearly intended to be Vladislav Tretiak. So I spoke to the gallerist there and I told him as much about the subject matter of some of the other goalies that were painted as he told me about the art and the artist.

The artist's name is Rob Ober - a 60's born West German man - who attended games in his youth, apparently. I haven't met him yet, but I apparently have a fairly close connect. I'd link his instagram here, but it contains depictions that I don't think are within the rules of the board, so I'll play it safe and not...I don't get any commission anyway haha

So what the hell am I talking about?

Great question.

Artists are not ranked in order of their stroke or use of color. There are no bonus points for mixed material pieces (in fact, I think quite the opposite, but that's another story).

Certainly technique is a factor. But there's more than just that...there's also timing and innovation.

There's nothing particularly novel about a soup can. But the timing and innovation started a movement.

I look at my "A" list of goaltenders (again, not having looked deeply at the O6 yet)...

Dominik Hasek - unique in his use of vertical angles backed by freakish athleticism and reflexes. He aggressively played the percentages in the highest danger areas like no one dared to before. Innovator.

Martin Brodeur - Mastered the art of stickhandling. Turned rebounds into breakout passes. Had unreal anticipation for the game to the point that he baited shooters into shots he was already ready for. A hybrid style that strayed away from the butterfly in Quebec. Innovator.

Patrick Roy - The aforementioned butterfly, but combined with skating and a competitive fire that took it to another level from Glenn Hall. Innovator, or at least, mastered the innovation and brought it to the forefront (Warhol wasn't the first kitschy pop art guy...he was just the first to really know how to market it and live the lifestyle...Roy may be Warhol).

Jacq.........................wait a minute. Glenn Hall ---> Patrick Roy. Someone very prominent is missing in the butterfly timeline.

Tony Esposito

Why is he missing?

Because he wasn't that good at it. He didn't advent or advance the butterfly...he stole it as part of a patchwork of guessing and poor technique. Maybe I'll lose the art references here in case someone knows who Elaine Sturtevant is...you ever tell a joke from a comedian whose timing and rhythm you can't match? That's Tony Esposito for me. He just took what the last Blackhawks goalie did and tried to mimic it.

He's not the best skater. He's so unbelievably impatient and unpoised. He makes the first move every single time and cannot account for it with his skill. Rebounds are a mess. Second save process is a mess. I don't know if we have the data, but I bet if you did an ELO ranking of shooters, I'd wager that Tony O gets beat by the upper tier more often than any other. The bad players might not have had the skill to figure out how to deal with him kneeling and sliding out at them, but the skilled players had no trouble at all.

Enter: His playoff record. Where you're normally playing better players on the whole. I mean, who loses 18 out of 19 playoff games? He won 12 of his last 46.

Watch the splits...

1970 - He's new on the scene. No one knows what to make of it. Tony Esposito 1969-70 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

1971 - The O6 teams with talent - Montreal, Boston, New York. They killed him. They're getting two extra goals per game on him, effectively.

1972 - The Hawks generally try to hide him from these teams. Giving Gary Smith Boston four times, Montreal three times, New York twice.

1973 - Doesn't play the full slate, but not a low amount either. He has a good year. Adds a half a goal per game in the playoffs. But it's really more than that, because that number is fluffed by the hapless Blues in the first round.

1974 - Same basic deal. He has a good year. Adds a whole goal in the playoffs. Again, fluffed by playing pre-Triple Crown Los Angeles in the first round. He gets slaughtered by Boston.

1975 and on...I think everyone basically figured it out that could.
The splits are stark:
sub-2 GAAs against Atlanta Kansas City, California, Washington, Minnesota, etc.

3+ against Boston and Buffalo
4's and 5's (!) against Montreal, Pittsburgh, and New York.

And I know that bad teams are bad and good teams are good. And I looked at other goalies around this time and this effect does exist, but it doesn't appear to be quite as stark of a difference. Plus...the unscionably bad playoff record makes a lot of sense now.

The smartest team had a sense too. They left Esposito exposed in, effectively, a waiver draft in 1969 after giving him a shot in the NHL.

He was a guesser, he had poor anchoring, poor rebound control, he was not in control of the game. And the H-R page on him makes it look like he was elite or near elite for his whole career, but he wasn't...those AS-5 and AS-6's or whatever are just discount rack atta-boys for a player that played 15-20 more games than any other goalie in the league. They're largely irrelevant and way off the lead.

And yes, given the state of things at the time and his penchant for playing the majority of games (meaning, more expansion teams and dumpster fires) his save pct. from 1974 to 1980 is 4th in the NHL. But his pocket-sized backup Mike Veisor's is 7th - and that includes him having to stay in for 12 goals on 36 shots vs. Montreal in 1975. If Esposito got that game, Veisor would be 5th, right next to Espo.

I'm not asking you not to put him on your lists...I'm not saying he won't be on mine....somewhere...lower than you have him certainly. But where ever he was at on the top 40 list last time is way too high. Whatever the number he's ranked at, I'd say double it...

It's unpopular, I'm an idiot, he's in the HOF, he's won Vezinas...I know. I'm aware. Whatever research you do for this, dig a little deeper here...don't give him a free pass. Don't ignore the massive playoff red flag. Don't ignore that Montreal chose Rogie Vachon and 40 year old Gump Worsley over him for their protected slots in the waiver draft or that no one was willing to pony up an asset to trade for him. Or that the very farm team he was with before the NHL chose Phil Myre over him for the playoffs. Or that he switched to represent the United States in order to get playing time in the 1981 Canada Cup. Or that he had to wear a hammock between his legs to cheat his way through bad technique.

He's Phil's little brother that happened to play a lot of games for an iconic franchise that was relevant for a bit with his goofball antics and their Original Six relics.

Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final - up 2-0 with 25 minutes left. And this is what you come up with?



There's a reason he didn't win.


good lord, sturtevant. savage
 
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Reactions: Michael Farkas

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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In my high school, the guys who got C+ were not on the football, soccer, basketball, Track & Field, United Nations, Debate or any other team.

C+ was what guys who did nothing great got.

John Vanbiesbrouck was far above that.

 

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