HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

- Ullmark is a very good goalie. I liked him in Buffalo actually. The Vezina overrated him though. It's not the same situation in Ottawa, so it's gonna hurt his numbers (or he's gonna win the Hart). I just don't think he has the shuffle ability to quite deal with how many loose pucks that hang around Ottawa's puddle. He's a zillion times better than Anton Forsberg at least, so his numbers will probably look good by comparison.

In short, he was underrated in Buffalo; overrated in Boston. That's basically a great example of why I'm scared that we end up "rating teams" instead of goalies.

- Giacomin isn't doing that great for me. But I have very limited views. He'll be a focal point tonight.

- I thought about Sorokin. But I felt he didn't have enough seasons to "qualify". He was basically the litmus test for that.

- Not quite to Lumley yet. I think I liked McNeil.

- I think it was very telling how uniform the last project's list was. Folks aren't sure about goaltending, and rightfully so...it's tough. No stats, completely different game basically, heavy team influence...I think we're going to have a lot of overlap again, relatively speaking...

 

[The Pale King]

I'm trying to finish up my list but I'm a ways off still. Really been enjoying reading the posts on here and reading about the older goalies.

Unfortunately the timing is really bad for me in terms of free time to devote (don't get me wrong, normally I have an excess). Sept - through mid Oct is going to be tough for me to be super active here.

If I can get a list in by the end of Sunday, I'll try my best to participate in a limited way in the first rounds of voting, but no promises at this point. Looking forward to reading the discussion and learning a bunch either way.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm trying to finish up my list but I'm a ways off still. Really been enjoying reading the posts on here and reading about the older goalies.

You got it. Keep pushin'

I don't have 80 list-able names yet myself.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I found after 65 I ran out of genuinely good goalies.

My back 15 are all guys with things about their game or career or resume I didn't like.

There's only 40 guys in the HHOF, so I guess that's expected.

Maybe we get an update on Sunday on how many lists we've recieved?

 

[Professor What]

I found after 65 I ran out of genuinely good goalies.

My back 15 are all guys with things about their game or career or resume I didn't like.

There's only 40 guys in the HHOF, so I guess that's expected.

Maybe we get an update on Sunday on how many lists we've recieved?

I think the guys I have listed are at least decent. Doesn't mean they're world beaters, but they're not losers either. That said, I think I hit that flawed threshold well before 65. I've got guys in my 40s that I'm not entirely thrilled with.

 

[MXD]

I was taking a look at my list and realized I listed Kevin Dzurilla

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ugh, some of these goalies are so frustrating...

Tony Esposito is to the butterfly what Eddie Giacomin is to the pad stack. It's so bizarre how they use it. Both are very inefficient players. I knew that Giacomin was renowned for playing the puck, I didn't realize it was at virtually any cost. Good lord, he's like trying to stickhandle from one side of the net (behind) and then employ puck protection techniques.

Not at all surprised that he had some early regular season success, then the rest of his career was wishy washy, and couldn't do diddly poo in the playoffs. Just like Tony O.

Even in the cherrypicked '67 to '71 prime window: 2.45 in the regular season, 2.95 in the playoffs.

Another unsympathetic character after watching the tape more in-depth. He shouldn't be far from Esposito and it should be lower than you, collectively, have him, imo.

 

[Sentinel]

Guys like Vernon, Giguere, Richter, Rask are given undeserved boosts based on team production. They were not among the leading team HEROES; to wit, they were solid role players, not difference makers.

Night after night, Rinne was the best player on his team, and it was well known. Rask? Not so often.

This is batshit crazy. If Giguere and Richter aren't "heroes," I don't know who is. 03 Giguere and 96 Richter are the stuff of legends.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Giguere isn't close to my list, obviously. Richter is on my weak interest list, and is staving off being crossed out...for now.

@tarheelhockey haven't seen you around very much, not sure if you're participating in this. Hope that you would have.

In this post, Award & All-Star Voting (1912-present) - the 1971 all star voting, I think the goaltender AS voting should be Eddie Johnston, not Ed Johnstone.

 

[VanIslander]

This is batshit crazy. If Giguere and Richter aren't "heroes," I don't know who is. 03 Giguere and 96 Richter are the stuff of legends.

Of course they had some peaks, most good goalies have their moments. But year after year, looking at careers and relative talents, some goalies were good but not top 3 on their team most nights whereas guys like the Beezer were top stars for thè team for a long time.

 

[rmartin65]

I got my list in last night, though I feel very uncertain in several places. I mostly tried to make sure I had people in the right range and didn't worry too much about the minor rankings between individuals, since we'll (hopefully) work those details out in the coming weeks.

It struck me that all the big name early guys- Moran and LeSueur being the best two, but I've seen people throwing around Hern, Nicholson, Paton, Hutton, etc- all come from the East. Is it true that all the best goalies were in the East at this point, or are we looking at geographic bias? I'm leaning towards bias at the moment.

Here are a couple more quotes about some of the early western goalies that I've been really trying to get a handle on over the past ~10 days. I'll continue searching through the weekend since people will be submitting their initial lists and maybe it will influence some people.

The first quote comes from the Toronto Star, 4 March 1905 Page 8. The article is discussing the 1905 Rat Portage team that was being sent East to challenge for the Cup. Rat Portage would ultimately lose the challenge (2 games to 1, scores of 9-3 (RP), 4-2 (OTT), 5-4 (OTT)), though it was one of the best/closest series the Cup had seen to-date.

GIROUX IN GOOD FORM​

GIROUX as a goalkeeper has performed more consistently than any other goaltend in the league with the exception of "Dutchy" Morrison of Portage la Prairie, though Charlie Quinn of the Rowing Club when in shape is the best there is in the Province. Quinn in late games has been off. Giroux was about three-quarters of the defence when with the Marlboros, and he figures largely in the Thistle games.

1905 Manitoba teams and (primary) goalies
Winnipeg Victorias: Mouat Little and Jack Warren
Winnipeg Rowing Club: Charlie Quinn
Rat Portage Thistles: Eddie Giroux
Brandon Wheat City: Claude Temple
Portage la Prairie: Dutchy Morrison

1905 was one of the peak seasons in how the talent was split between various leagues. In addition to the Manitoba league, the East was split into 2... actually 3 top tier leagues in the CAHL, FAHL, and IPHL. So we are looking at really 4 leagues and 21 teams that had a claim to be playing at the highest level.

CAHL teams and (primary) goalies:
Montreal HC: Oliver Waugh
Quebec HC: Paddy Moran
Montreal Westmount: Fred Brophy (the goal-scorer)
Montreal Shamrocks: Mike Kenny
Montreal Victorias: Nathan Frye
Montreal le National: Joseph Cattarinich

FAHL teams and (primary) goalies
Ottawa HC: Dave Finnie
Brockville HC: Kerr
Cornwall HC: Jack Hunter
Montreal Montagnards: Henri Menard
Montreal Wanderers: Bill Baker

IPHL teams and (primary)- Since I haven't been through this league yet I am less sure about if these were indeed the primary goalies, so someone please fact check me if I am wrong
Calumet Miners: Billy Nicholson
Portage Lake HC: Riley Hern
Michigan Soo: Joeseph "Chief" Jones
Pittsburgh Professionals: Jack Winchester
Canadian Soo: Pete Maltman

Maybe its just because I have spent a lot of time in this era over the past 2-ish years, but that is a lot of names that received significant praise, both during the careers and after they ended. Sometimes long after. And it is pretty well split; 3 of the four leagues has 2-3 names that really stand out to me

Manitoba: Morrison, Quinn, Giroux
CAHL: Moran, LeSueur are the big names, and Cattarinich spent some time in the NHA
FAHL: probably the weakest goalie talent here... Finnie, Menard, Baker, and Hunter all had decent careers, but none are what I would call particularly significant in a historical sense
IPHL: Nicholson, Hern, Winchester

I haven't really decided what this all means yet, haha, but I wanted to get some thoughts down. Are we (or just me?) overrating some of these guys? I count 8 names there that I spent some real time on, trying to figure out who/how many should be on my list.

Alright, that is enough of that. The second quote is from The Province (I believe British Columbia... Vancouver?), 20 November 1908 Page 13, though the story is in several papers across Canada.

The Ottawa club, by the way, is hurting to get together a team. Negotiations have practically been completed for the signing of Jack Winchester of Toronto to play goal. Winchester played last year with Winnipeg Maple Leafs and is considered quite up to the standard of Paddy Moran. Winchester was reported signed by Wanderers, but Ottawa got there first.

By November 1908, Ottawa HC had Percy LeSueur and the Wanderers had Riley Hern... and these teams were thinking about replacing those two (big) names with Jack Winchester? Does anybody know if LeSueur or Hern had other offers on the table, or was Winchester considered an upgrade?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think Sawchuk is the most vulnerable of the 3 O6 goalies. For all the high praise in the 80s and 90s I can't find any in the 55-65 timeframe. You see praise during the Cup run, then a whole lot of so so praise until way after his retirement.

I don't know when his untouchable reputation starts, but I can't find anything pre 1985.

One of the surprises (to a degree) is Sawchuk holding up so well. On paper, I was sort of against him for the reasons that you outlined. "Five years and what else?" I'll have him over Glenn Hall.

I wouldn't have expected to have Sawchuk over Hall.
I wouldn't have expected to like Parent and not like Vachon.
I wouldn't have expected to like Dryden over Esposito (though that one aligns with canon)

Ya know, also...don't look now...and I'm just generalizing but...

Guys that won often/a lot:
Plante
Bower
Sawchuk
Parent
Smith
Dryden

Guys that famously did not win often/a lot:
Vachon
Giacomin
Esposito
Crozier
Worsley until he was in his late 30's on a wagon Habs team that leaked into the expansion era

Folks that are doing the work here should see a various obvious and interesting pattern...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is there any international guys I should be aware of before, say, NHL expansion...?

Seth Martin I guess qualifies...anyone else on lists or watchlists?

EDIT: A lot of goalie talk in this 1964 hockey magazine article, text version here (there's a legit version if you don't want to read it like this): Full text of "Hockey 1964"

 

[Professor What]

Martin didn't make my list, though admittedly, I didn't really know what to do with him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's very unlikely that he'll make mine...but I'm spending my entire day watching film from the pre-expansion era, anything I can find, so I'm just wondering how much of this, ummm, checkered international play I have to go through...

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable with the caliber of goaltending I'm seeing before Plante. Like...the difference between Chuck Rayner and Sugar Jim Henry is not that great from what I've seen. So, that's worrying. Though, I will say, the difference between Sugar Jim Henry and his early 50's backup Gord "Red" Henry is significant.

Some cracks are starting to show coming out of the War...

Like Rayner, Montreal’s Bill Durnan, Chicago’s Frank Brimsek and Toronto’s Turk Broda are “old pros” in the business. Frank and Turk have over 10 years in the league. Actually there is no set style for playing the position nor does it take a particular type of temperament.

Rayner himself is a big man, over six feet and 190 pounds. Some say the shrimp-sized goalie is a disappearing breed, because more often than not he can’t stand the gaff. Rayner has had his nose broken four times, not to mention innumerable torn ligaments and countless cuts. The worst injury was a fractured cheekbone, the results of a deflected shot from the stick of Bill Barilko.

Chuck claims the outstanding hazard is the screened shot in which the puck is blocked from the goalie’s view.

Like most men who guard the nets, Rayner turned to goaling because he never was a strong skater. He got his big-league break with the Americans when Earl Robertson was hit in the head.

Digging continues...

EDIT: I jumped the gun here a bit. I just got a run of guys that aren't very good. I see some tenets of goaltending going back further. Here at 10 pm ET, I'm working back into the 30's now.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Something that I don't think was properly taken into account in the last goalie project was how thin the position was in the 40s as a whole. A lot of that is the war, and that gets tons of play around here, but a lot of it is just... there wasn't anyone else to challenge for spots. You've got the three big guys, then Rayner comes in... after that, Jim Henry's a fringe guy for a top-80 list, at best.

The 20s and 30s had very strong depth IMO. Then in the 50s things pick back up again. The easy answer would be that the position went through growing pains with the first goalies who developed and came up under forward pass rules, which would've been the late-30s into 40s guys. Is that enough of an answer, or this there more? I don't know.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Speaking for another tradition, Turk Broda, unselfishly and with considerable vigor, was hoping the all-star selectors would cast their ballots for the Leafs’ thin man, Al Rollins. “It’s traditional that a Vezina Trophy winner gets the all-star award, so why shouldn’t Al get it?” demanded the Turk from behind a lather of shaving cream.

“All this nonsense about people voting for Rayner and Lumley makes me sick,” continued Broda as roommate Rollins lounged on a bed, mentally computing how he would spend the $1,000 that goes with the prize he won in Boston on Sunday night when he shut out the Bruins (actually it will likely be a $2,000 prize because each club generally matches the money, through bonus clauses in contracts).

Rayner Not In Race​

“Rayner never stopped anything early in the season,” Broda maintained, “and if the couldn’t win the all-star award last year when the Rangers went to within one game of a Stanley Cup, how can they expect him to win it this year when they (Rangers) didn’t even make the playoffs?”

“They’re also plumping for Lumley,” ventured Rollins, “but I don’t see how Lum could get it, unless it’s for extreme bravery in standing in that Black Hawk net.”

Not that Al Rollins looks much better than Eddie Giacomin himself...

We have this very incomplete record for AS goaltender voting for '51: GOALTENDER: (146/162, 15-9-8) Terry Sawchuk, Det 70 (10-6-2); Chuck Rayner, NYR 40 (5-3-6); Al Rollins, Tor 36 ();

 

[Michael Farkas]

The further back I get, the more complaining I see about stats and awards actually...Tommy Ivan said that a goalie is only as good as the team in front of him in 1951. Then I see this whole article...

Although two goalies wearing the regalia of the Black Hawks have won the Vezina Trophy, which is annually awarded to the goalie least scored against, the Hawks have been quietly pushing the idea that the award be made in the same manner as the other trophies; namely, the Hart, Byng, and Calder, that is, by the balloting of the hockey writers. When Les Canadiens offered the trophy to perpetuate the memory of their great goalie the late Georges Vezina, although the trust deed stated that the trophy be awarded to the goalie least scored against, they had in mind that each season the best goalie in the league be suitably rewarded. Undoubtedly the moguls of the Montreal club felt that Vezina was the peer of the net minders of his time.

...

Vezina Trophy is a team trophy, and often goes to the team with the strongest back checkers and ablestdefense rather than to the best goalie.

...

(Blackhawks petition the league, in part) “The goals-against are only part of the medium for measuring goaling ability. A fair goaler with a great back-checking team, and a strong defense, might pile up some fine records. But there might be better goalers in the league, less fortunate in the defensive strength fronting them, who would have more goals against, and still be better goalers. We think there should be a vote for the trophy, which is now, in reality, a team prize, and not an award for goaling skill, and never has been."

...

“Some great goalers seldom, perhaps never, got the Vezina because it was their misfortune to be associated with weak teams. Little Roy Worters was a great goaler, one of the best, but he won it only once, because he was with weak teams. Lome Chabot, 1935. Merit doesn’t always go with low goals

...

The Montreal contingent felt the Hawks’ Mentors were aiming darts at Les Canadiens’ Bill Dur-nan who behind front running teams won the award four season’s in a row. Nothing is further from the truth; they simply feel that under the present system the Vezina Trophy is not awarded to the goalie who has done the best job.

I love it.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I would caution project participants to be very careful with post-1965 goalies.

10 years earlier, in the 55-56 season, the six NHL starters played, on average, just shy of 93% of the games, and the two (Harry Lumley and Al Rollins) who were just barely short of the 60 game mark still started 83% and 84% of the games. Those two would have ranked 3rd and 4th in games played 10 years later, after the NHL required teams to dress backup goalies in time for the ‘65 playoffs.

The issue, to me (a non-participant in the project) is extremely straightforward. When skaters are evaluated and ranked, “availability” is always crucial. I’m of the view that the same rationale should apply to goalies. In the 55-56 season, Hall and Worsley played all 70 games, and both Sawchuk (68) Plante (64) were in the net an average of 94% of the time.

Flash forward 10 seasons and only Crozier (64) and Hall (64) cracked the 60 game mark. Worsley, with just 51 starts (72.8%), was 3rd and remarkably the 4th place goalie was Bernie Parent in Boston, who started just 39 games (55.7%).

Tandems really began in the 65-66 season. Worsley and Hodge in Montreal, Parent and Johnston in Boston, Giacomin and Maniago in New York, Bower and Sawchuk in Toronto. Only Detroit (Crozier) and Chicago (Hall) rode a true #1 goalie.

I’m not going to go into deep detail here, but the birth of tandem goaltending in the NHL is really rooted in game 2 of the 1964 semi-finals between Detroit and Chicago. The Red Wings’ Sawchuk was injured just a few minutes into the game — which was broadcast on television — and a nearly 30 minute delay (talk about dead air on TV) ensued before Detroit got Bob Champoux (google him for kicks) out of the stands, into his gear and out on the ice. This was extremely embarrassing for the league, and the press reports were viciously brutal. This was Champoux’s first and only NHL game until 9 years later, when he briefly played for the California Golden Seals (2-11-3 record, 5.71 GAA). Some newspapers suggested Champoux’s (eventual) appearance in the Red Wings’ net was akin to the NY Yankees replacing an injured Mickey Mantle with a random Class D outfielder during the ALCS. Ouch. The NHL looked very bush.

At any rate, once the NHL mandated backup goalies dressed and on the bench in time for the 1965 playoffs, everything changed. True #2 goalies, guys who would normally be carrying the mail on their clubs’ top minor league affiliates and developing, were suddenly on NHL rosters. A few just watched and waited for Glenn Hall to pull a groin, but a huge number played 25 or more games (35%). Unheard of just a decade earlier when teams just were not going to pay an NHL salary to a “backup” tender.

Maybe I’m being intractably unreasonable here, but my belief is that Cesare Maniago is not an all-time great unless he can wrestle at least 80% of the starts from Eddie Giacomin, and Giacomin isn’t an all-time great if he can’t wrestle 80% of the starts from Gilles Villemure. I loved Gerry Cheevers far more than most people, but he played 50 regular season games just once in his entire NHL career. Grant Fuhr (love him or hate him) in Edmonton played 48, 32, 45, 46, 40, 44, 75, 59, 21 and 13 games, which to me just isn’t nearly enough. Splitting the load with Ron Lowe, Andy Moog and Bill Ranford says to me that you didn’t carry the load, and all-time great goalies aren’t supposed to be fighting tooth and claw for starts.

I could go on — but I don’t think I need to. My primary point is that post-1965 goalies should not be given a pass when they did not earn (and keep) the vast majority of starts for multiple seasons.

Enjoy the project. I’ve been following this discussion thread daily and admire the thoughtful approach so many participants are already demonstrating.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Champoux, unsuspecting average junior prospect at best...similar situation to that old zamboni driver that came in during covid season and beat one of the league's best offenses...

A game, a season, a couple seasons even...things can happen.

 

[VanIslander]

I need to repeat my take:

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ugh, The Hockey Guy...no clips, no info...just a dude reading the paper in a sweet collection of sweaters...

Beezer is on my C+ list. I like him. Higher than Richter certainly.

 

[VanIslander]

Lol. Beezer was not C+. He was A-/B+.

Give this Stanley Cup Finals run a few seconds of your day:


(Forgive FOX Sports early days WWE-like coverage.)

 

[Sentinel]

Of course they had some peaks, most good goalies have their moments. But year after year, looking at careers and relative talents, some goalies were good but not top 3 on their team most nights whereas guys like the Beezer were top stars for thè team for a long time.

Because Beezer played on the most talentless team to ever make it to the Finals (until the Covid Canadiens). He was going to be #1, #2, #3, and #10 on that team. Richter was on the loaded Rangers.

Again: Richter and Giguere are HEROES INCARNATE. A hundred years from now NYR and Anaheim fans will remember their names.