Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XCVIII: Orange is the new Orange (Poll in OP)

[Beef Invictus]

lol. Sure they did. The lengths you'll go to in order to avoid admitting you were wrong are mindblowing.

Do you know how many actual Dubas draft picks ever meaningfully contributed to the Toronto Maple Leafs during his tenure? One. Knies. And it was only finally this year.

But of course, you'll claim the 3 home run first round picks before he actually was the GM (Matthews, Marner, Nylander) were all him. He just must've lost his touch once he actually took the big boy seat.

I readily admit I'm wrong whenever I am. I spent the whole season doing so with my appraisal of Tippet being that he had nowhere higher to go.

I encourage you to remember how Toronto was before he was around. Go ahead. Try it!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Widely regarded as one of the top 10 draft prospects ever scouted in the modern NHL, currently potting goals at a pace matched only really by Ovi in the modern NHL. Is that not generational?

No.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Imagine being a fan of a team that has a Crosby even in his elder days.

Or say McDavid. Matthews. Marner.

Even if you don’t win, at least you have the fun of following a player like that.

Or cheering for Honda CRV’s.

Yeah but the Honda CRV is reliable & gets the tough road trips.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Oh Igor Silent, you welcome a new burner. Hilarious

Some people make it to easy

 

[Magua]

No.

I can’t follow this, but is the argument Dubas can’t run a rebuild because he inherited a 1st overall pick? That’s, uh, how rebuilds work — you then supplement those core players, which is where most GMs flop (hello, Edmonton!). Does Dubas not understand how lottery picks work? He’ll be incapable of selling and wishing upon lottery balls? Do I have this right?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I can’t follow this, but is the argument Dubas can’t run a rebuild because he inherited a 1st overall pick? That’s, uh, how rebuilds work — you then supplement those core players, which is where most GMs flop (hello, Edmonton!). Does Dubas not understand how lottery picks work? He’ll be incapable of selling and wishing upon lottery balls? Do I have this right?

No, the argument is that Dubas has been downright Hextallian when it comes to drafting players. He has whiffed at every turn as an actual GM.

So your shrugging off of him trading first round picks just to try and get back to the playoffs and catch lightning in a bottle is misguided.

And your confidence in him to lead a proper rebuild and take Pittsburgh back to relevancy after Crosby retires is far too high.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Widely regarded as one of the top 10 draft prospects ever scouted in the modern NHL, currently potting goals at a pace matched only really by Ovi in the modern NHL. Is that not generational?

Is he better then McDavidd? Are they in the same generation of players?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Is he better then McDavidd? Are they in the same generation of players?

Is Ovi generational?
He's in the same generation as Crosby.

If you want to argue semantics, that's fine. The point is that Dubas took over a team with a player who most now consider to be the 2nd or 3rd best forward in the game. And another top 10 forward in the game in Marner.

For a GM to inherit those 2 guys + Nylander all on ELCs / RFA contracts for 5 years and the best that GM could do is get his team to the 2nd round once? And people are sitting here praising the job he did and slurping the Penguins for hiring him?

And those same people are acting like giving up first round picks to try and sneak back into the playoffs and hope something magical happens with a downright elderly roster is a great plan?

No.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Comparing KHL goal totals from 2003 to 2023 to justify generational status certainly is one of those arguments.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I readily admit I'm wrong whenever I am. I spent the whole season doing so with my appraisal of Tippet being that he had nowhere higher to go.

I encourage you to remember how Toronto was before he was around. Go ahead. Try it!

You'll admit when you're wrong about a player. Will you admit when you're wrong about the organization as a whole? I doubt it. Your axe to grind is with the Flyers leadership. Which is why this Dubas thing is even a discussion. You and others are trying to frame Dubas as a genius and the Karlsson acquisition as a shrewd move as a means to laugh by comparison at the Flyers.

I certainly remember how Toronto was before Shanahan arrived. It's weird how the turnaround corresponded exactly with Shanahan's arrival and Leafs fans and the media playfully refer to the strategy that turned things around as the "Shanaplan"... must just be because it was too hard to come up with a fun rebuild nickname that fits with "Dubas" .

To take it ever a step further, there's a great Athletic article about the process to draft Mitch Marner. Do you know who ran amateur scouting for the Maple Leafs leading up to that draft (and every draft from 15-17)? It was Mark Hunter. He was actually blamed by Leafs fans for the team not having depth due to his poor drafting in the 2nd-7th rounds. He agreed to mutually part ways with the team when Dubas was promoted to GM. He felt jilted that Dubas got the job over him and Dubas felt like he could do a better job with the draft himself. Ironically, the Leafs has been just as bad if not worse under Dubas.

 

[DancingPanther]

Yes, a discussion. That's what this is

 

[Beef Invictus]

You'll admit when you're wrong about a player. Will you admit when you're wrong about the organization as a whole? I doubt it. Your axe to grind is with the Flyers leadership. Which is why this Dubas thing is even a discussion. You and others are trying to frame Dubas as a genius and the Karlsson acquisition as a shrewd move as a means to laugh by comparison at the Flyers.

I certainly remember how Toronto was before Shanahan arrived. It's weird how the turnaround corresponded exactly with Shanahan's arrival and Leafs fans and the media playfully refer to the strategy that turned things around as the "Shanaplan"... must just be because it was too hard to come up with a fun rebuild nickname that fits with "Dubas" .

To take it ever a step further, there's a great Athletic article about the process to draft Mitch Marner. Do you know who ran amateur scouting for the Maple Leafs leading up to that draft (and every draft from 15-17)? It was Mark Hunter. He was actually blamed by Leafs fans for the team not having depth due to his poor drafting in the 2nd-7th rounds. He agreed to mutually part ways with the team when Dubas was promoted to GM. He felt jilted that Dubas got the job over him and Dubas felt like he could do a better job with the draft himself. Ironically, the Leafs has been just as bad if not worse under Dubas.

No, I am framing Dubas as competent. Which he is. You clearly choose to forget what an unstable debacle the Leafs were. You also apparently don't understand the Penguin's present situation.

Flyers management is incompetent. Why shouldn't I have an axe to grind with them?

 

[Magua]

Yes, a discussion. That's what this is

 

[DancingPanther]

Was hoping he'd ask "if it isn't a discussion, what is it?" and I was going to post this

So instead I'll add

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

No, I am framing Dubas as competent. Which he is. You clearly choose to forget what an unstable debacle the Leafs were. You also apparently don't understand the Penguin's present situation.

Flyers management is incompetent. Why shouldn't I have an axe to grind with them?

Yes, the Leafs were an unstable debacle before Shanahan. I fail to understand what Dubas has to do with that. All Dubas did when he took over is maintain first round exits. Aren't you the guy who loves to say that making the playoffs is neither difficult nor impressive? But now apparently that demonstrates competency?

Flyers management has sucked for decades. You're absolutely justified to have an axe to grind. It's just not everything has to be a flyers comparison. You don't need to fall over yourself to praise a mediocre or bad move from a rival just to point out how poor the flyers are by comparison.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, the Leafs were an unstable debacle before Shanahan. I fail to understand what Dubas has to do with that. All Dubas did when he took over is maintain first round exits. Aren't you the guy who loves to say that making the playoffs is neither difficult nor impressive? But now apparently that demonstrates competency?

Flyers management has sucked for decades. You're absolutely justified to have an axe to grind. It's just not everything has to be a flyers comparison. You don't need to fall over yourself to praise a mediocre or bad move from a rival just to point out how poor the flyers are by comparison.

Good thing we have much larger sample sizes showing Dubas did a good job!

You're falling into your own anus here. This doesn't actually have anything to do with the Flyers. At all. It's a fine move. That's a neutral assessment. Just as I can neutrally assess Dubas did well in Toronto. For the Penguin's situation with their players and fans, there's nothing wrong with it. They've made their team better. Everyone knows they have a rebuild coming and nobody has a problem with this likely futile ride into the sunset. You know what their fans did have a problem with? Hextall wasting time while also not rebuilding. He did neither. Dubas is at least doing one thing, instead of nonsense.

By the way, the Flyers have no rivals. A rival is a thing that stands in your team's way. The only thing that qualifies as a rival is their management.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I wonder who has done better in their career so far? The guy who just added Karlsson to his team and earlier turned around a shithole franchise? Or the guy whose signature moves are Deslauriers, Staal, Poehling, and Hathaway to prevent prospects from testing the NHL while refusing to truly commit to a rebuild?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

By the way, the Flyers have no rivals. A rival is a thing that stands in your team's way. The only thing that qualifies as a rival is their management.

Unrivaled is actually Penn State's slogan. Please don't get them confused.

Good thing we have much larger sample sizes showing Dubas did a good job!

We do? Where? It's the same core making the same first round exit every single year up till this year when they got wiped in 5 games in the 2nd round and he got fired. Where exactly is this evidence that he's a good GM?

It's a fine move. That's a neutral assessment. Just as I can neutrally assess Dubas did well in Toronto. For the Penguin's situation with their players and fans, there's nothing wrong with it. They've made their team better. Everyone knows they have a rebuild coming and nobody has a problem with this likely futile ride into the sunset.

So as long as you won a cup 5 years ago, making bad moves that take away from your team's future today are OK as long as the fans and players like it? Yeah... I don't agree.

 

[Magua]

Briere has made a single 6.5/10 trade — that looks worse after using their 1st rounder. He dumped Hayes for a 6th. He bought out TDA. He signed some 4th liners. He did make a 7th overall pick (who was internally ranked 2nd overall before he was appointed interim GM) that would be immediate grounds for dismissal had he chosen otherwise….

I guess I must be missing the large sample that definitively paints what caliber GM Briere even is at this point. The positives and negatives seem balanced so far. I suppose Keith Jones is better than Dubas too.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I wonder who has done better in their career so far? The guy who just added Karlsson to his team and earlier turned around a shithole franchise? Or the guy whose signature moves are Deslauriers, Staal, Poehling, and Hathaway to prevent prospects from testing the NHL while refusing to truly commit to a rebuild?

We've been over this... He didn't turn Toronto around. He literally kept them treading water from where they were before he became GM.

Now you're blaming the assistant GM for Deslauriers? LOL. That's a Chuckles special if I've ever seen one.

He added Karlsson to the retirement home?!? Subtract a first round pick and add another year onto that rebuild. I'm sure the real East contenders are just shaking in their boots. Dubas's team looks primed to start another first round exit streak! (Should this end up being the result, you would of course tout this as "improvement" and as further evidence of his competency).

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

We've been over this... He didn't turn Toronto around. He literally kept them treading water from where they were before he became GM.

Now you're blaming the assistant GM for Deslauriers? LOL. That's a Chuckles special if I've ever seen one.

He added Karlsson to the retirement home?!? Subtract a first round pick and add another year onto that rebuild. I'm sure the real East contenders are just shaking in their boots. Dubas's team looks primed to start another first round exit streak! (Should this end up being the result, you would of course tout this as "improvement" and as further evidence of his competency).
View attachment 734710

Dubas was employed and actually did things prior to getting the GM job. His body of work didn’t start the second that he was given the GM job but I get it it’s easier to act like that isn’t the case.

What was Briere’s claim to fame prior to getting the big job? Selling tickets in Maine and stanning for Deslauriers? Again, you are ignoring what has been reported regarding Deslauriers because it’s easier to act like that isn’t the case.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Dubas was employed and actually did things prior to getting the GM job. His body of work didn’t start the second that he was given the GM job but I get it it’s easier to act like that isn’t the case.

What was Briere’s claim to fame prior to getting the big job? Selling tickets in Maine and stanning for Deslauriers? Again, you are ignoring what has been reported regarding Deslauriers because it’s easier to act like that isn’t the case.

Nobody said his body of work started only the second he got the GM job. But why don't we get real specific here... what exactly did he do to contribute to Toronto's rebuild? We've already established that he had nothing to do with the draft picks that have laid the foundation for this "successful" era of Maple Leafs hockey.

So what else?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unrivaled is actually Penn State's slogan. Please don't get them confused.

We do? Where? It's the same core making the same first round exit every single year up till this year when they got wiped in 5 games in the 2nd round and he got fired. Where exactly is this evidence that he's a good GM?

Hilarious lack of context here. I'm sure it's deliberate. Why do you support a position that requires ignoring chunks of facts to be workable?

Also, I bet it is going to be shocking to you to learn that the regular season counts. It's a thing that happens. It's real hockey. It's a highly reliable sample size; more so than a small one where you run into a Hasek-level performance while outplaying a team.

So as long as you won a cup 5 years ago, making bad moves that take away from your team's future today are OK as long as the fans and players like it? Yeah... I don't agree.

It isn't a bad move because of the current situation of the team, which you refuse to understand or consider. Go to the Penguins board and ask around. They'll educate you, if you're willing to learn.

We've been over this... He didn't turn Toronto around. He literally kept them treading water from where they were before he became GM.

Yes, you have said this wrong thing before.

Now you're blaming the assistant GM for Deslauriers? LOL. That's a Chuckles special if I've ever seen one.

Uh, no, it's been widely known since it happened that Deslauriers was Briere's idea. The Flyers let that be known proudly because they thought it made Briere look good.

He added Karlsson to the retirement home?!? Subtract a first round pick and add another year onto that rebuild. I'm sure the real East contenders are just shaking in their boots. Dubas's team looks primed to start another first round exit streak! (Should this end up being the result, you would of course tout this as "improvement" and as further evidence of his competency).
View attachment 734710

Again, you have no understanding of the Penguins or their situation.

Wait, I thought urgency doesn't matter with rebuilds? That's what you've told me over and over and over. It does matter? So. you were wrong?

 

[Magua]

@landsbergfan — come get your boy.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

It isn't a bad move because of the current situation of the team. Go to the Penguins board and ask around. They'll educate you, if you're willing to learn.

Again, you have no understanding of the Penguins or their situation.

Wait, I thought urgency doesn't matter with rebuilds? That's what you've told me over and over and over. It does matter? So. you were wrong?

I have a perfect understanding of the Penguins and their situation. They are handcuffed from starting a rebuild by their aging core. And they can't trade said core because they all have earned the right to retire as Penguins. I get it. That doesn't mean you have to throw good assets after the bad money that's already being spent on the retirement tour. You could just ya know, keep your picks and ride it out.

I don't need to see how a group of fans reacted to adding an all star. It's the exact same way Flyers fans by and large would've reacted if we signed Johnny Hockey last summer. You and all other fans that have called for a rebuild for years would've called the Flyers morons if they did that and you would've been correct. But win now moves are almost always popular amongst most of the fan base.

I'm gonna say this for you nice and slow so you can understand... urgency doesn't matter when you're rebuilding or a rebuild is on the horizon... AS LONG AS YOU AREN'T LOSING ANYTHING BY TAKING IT SLOW. If you trade someone for a pick 1 year in the future instead of at this draft, it's not a big deal at all. Now, if you start trading assets that would be helpful for your rebuild away entirely for a win now player, that is harmful. In the same way, if we end up not trading Laughton, or his value declines sharply, that will have been a mistake. Getting nothing from assets is bad business.

Hilarious lack of context here. I'm sure it's deliberate. Why do you support a position that requires ignoring chunks of facts to be workable?

Also, I bet it is going to be shocking to you to learn that the regular season counts. It's a thing that happens. It's real hockey. It's a highly reliable sample size; more so than a small one where you run into a Hasek-level performance while outplaying a team.

Please add the context then. I legitimately see nothing to be impressed by when I look at Dubas's track record as a GM. The only thing I'm impressed by is his meteoric rise and that he's where he's at at 37. That is impressive.

The regular season does count. But winning the regular season isn't the goal. They don't throw parades for the president's trophy. And even if they did, Dubas still wouldn't have a parade because his team never even won that. If you're impressed by 115 points, good on you. I'm not.

Uh, no, it's been widely known since it happened that Deslauriers was Briere's idea. The Flyers let that be known proudly because they thought it made Briere look good.

The Snow the Goalie podcast is not a legitimate source. If you have an actual media source with actual quotes that indicates Briere was behind Deslauriers, I would love to see it. All I've seen is mostly baseless speculation and for every story I've heard that Briere was behind it, I've seen 2 that Chuck loved him.

I'll tell you one thing for sure... that contract reeks of Chuck.

Woof.

I don't take kindly to people I don't know putting down my alma mater. Only been dealing with it for 12 years now.