Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XCVIII: Orange is the new Orange (Poll in OP)

[Beef Invictus]

I have a perfect understanding of the Penguins and their situation. They are handcuffed from starting a rebuild by their aging core. And they can't trade said core because they all have earned the right to retire as Penguins. I get it. That doesn't mean you have to throw good assets after the bad money that's already being spent on the retirement tour. You could just ya know, keep your picks and ride it out.

Yeah, you obviously don't understand, much less have a perfect understanding. They do not value what you think they should, and you don't get that. They aren't trying to do what you think they should, and that disturbs you. They don't care. Neither do their fans. They're all pretty pleased right now overall.

Their values and goals have not changed since they hired Dubas. They were the same when Hextall was there. Hextall was just completely shit at pursuing their goals. Dubas understands what they value and what their goals are, and is on pace to meet them far better than Hextall. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

I don't need to see how a group of fans reacted to adding an all star. It's the exact same way Flyers fans by and large would've reacted if we signed Johnny Hockey last summer. You and all other fans that have called for a rebuild for years would've called the Flyers morons if they did that and you would've been correct. But win now moves are almost always popular amongst most of the fan base.

It's true, I would have been critical of signing JG and I didn't want it. It doesn't make sense. On the other hand, for a team that was still under the delusion that they were going for it, not signing him was a damning move by management that made zero sense based on all their other actions. So I also slammed them for the massive dissonance on display. It was a lose-lose for management due to the situation they'd created and what they were trying to do. Fletcher is great at building lose-lose situations. It's a fun trait of the Clarke Management Tree in general.

I'm gonna say this for you nice and slow so you can understand... urgency doesn't matter when you're rebuilding or a rebuild is on the horizon... AS LONG AS YOU AREN'T LOSING ANYTHING BY TAKING IT SLOW. If you trade someone for a pick 1 year in the future instead of at this draft, it's not a big deal at all. Now, if you start trading assets that would be helpful for your rebuild away entirely for a win now player, that is harmful. In the same way, if we end up not trading Laughton, or his value declines sharply, that will have been a mistake. Getting nothing from assets is bad business.

Read this slowly, for yourself: They are losing something by taking it slow. Time is also an asset, without even getting into all the other risks.

Please add the context then. I legitimately see nothing to be impressed by when I look at Dubas's track record as a GM. The only thing I'm impressed by is his meteoric rise and that he's where he's at at 37. That is impressive.

Others have already filled in those gaps for you today. You deliberately choose to remain ignorant. Why should I add myself to the list of people you ignored in your quest to fabricate your own personal fiction? I'm trying to get in some Diablo and I'm not interested in burning time doing something you've already shown you'll ignore.

The regular season does count. But winning the regular season isn't the goal. They don't throw parades for the president's trophy. And even if they did, Dubas still wouldn't have a parade because his team never even won that. If you're impressed by 115 points, good on you. I'm not.

The best a GM can do is maximize his team's chances to win. What more could he have done? Winning a Cup takes luck, hence why it's a much better strategy to maximize the length and quality of your window instead of cashing in on one chance. He did that, even with interference from The Olds in Toronto.

The Snow the Goalie podcast is not a legitimate source. If you have an actual media source with actual quotes that indicates Briere was behind Deslauriers, I would love to see it. All I've seen is mostly baseless speculation and for every story I've heard that Briere was behind it, I've seen 2 that Chuck loved him.

Considering STG's source is certainly Jones, yes. It is a legitimate source on that front. They sure did get a lot right in that period.

I'll tell you one thing for sure... that contract reeks of Chuck.

The contract? Sure. But the idea is Briere's, and it was rotten. His signings this year firm that up. Hell, for all we know he loved him some Yandle too. He does have that Flyers Management Penchant For Washed Up Slobs (tm) so far.

I don't take kindly to people I don't know putting down my alma mater. Only been dealing with it for 12 years now.

That'll happen. They earned it. Also, definitely don't ever venture into a college sports internet discussion area, especially on FB. It's nothing but putting everyone down as viciously as possible. You won't like it.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Yeah, you obviously don't understand, much less have a perfect understanding. They do not value what you think they should, and you don't get that. They aren't trying to do what you think they should, and that disturbs you. They don't care. Neither do their fans. They're all pretty pleased right now overall.

Their values and goals have not changed since they hired Dubas. They were the same when Hextall was there. Hextall was just completely shit at pursuing their goals. Dubas understands what they value and what their goals are, and is on pace to meet them far better than Hextall. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

I promise you, I do get it. I understand what their goals are. I understand that they're all pretty pleased. There was a time under Fletcher where unfortunately the Flyers management and fans were pretty pleased too and thought they were following a good plan. That didn't make them right or make their plan a good one. This is a poor plan for the hockey future of the Penguins franchise. This move will set them back ultimately in their next cup pursuit. It makes a lot of business sense though.

If you're trying to debate that Dubas is doing a good job of what his FSG bosses are asking of him, there's no need. I agree. FSG set the mandate for there to be one last hurrah. They want to cash in one last time on the golden generation. And Dubas made the biggest splashiest move out there. It's a total organizational failure. I'd like to have a GM brave enough to tell his bosses when they're f***ing up though... not one who just barrels head on enthusiastically into making the mistake.

Read this slowly, for yourself: They are losing something by taking it slow. Time is also an asset, without even getting into all the other risks.

You're right, they absolutely took a risk. That risk has a potential reward though (bigger market and more assets in play at the trade deadline).

Others have already filled in those gaps for you today. You deliberately choose to remain ignorant. Why should I add myself to the list of people you ignored in your quest to fabricate your own personal fiction?

I just went back through this thread and I don't see anyone filling in those gaps of what Dubas brought to Toronto. I saw one poster says that Dubs made a lot of good moves on paper. And another who touted Toronto having the 5th best regular season record in the league during his tenure. You also generically talked about how bad toronto was before Dubas. That's really it.

I think I've brought more specifics on why he wasn't really that impressive (his draft record, his team's playoff lack of success, etc.).

If you're telling me this really just boils down to you being impressed with his team's regular season success well OK then. Nothing to really debate. But if it's more than that, please educate me.

The best a GM can do is maximize his team's chances to win. What more could he have done? Winning a Cup takes luck, hence why it's a much better strategy to maximize the length and quality of your window instead of cashing in on one chance. He did that, even with interference from The Olds in Toronto.

They finished first in their division once under Dubas. So I'd say he could've done more, even by your regular season success metric.

Winning a cup definitely takes luck. And that'd be a very fair statement to make if the Maple Leafs had gotten to a finals under Dubas or at the very least a conference championship. The fact that they couldn't even come close and crashed out in the first round nearly every year tells you there's something fundamentally wrong with the team. Playoff hockey plays a little different than the regular season...

Considering STG's source is certainly Jones, yes. It is a legitimate source.

"Certainly Jones" based on what information exactly? This really seems like you just being overly eager to shit on the new GM. You heard a story from STG and you wanted it to be true so you're running with it with absolutely zero confirmation.

The contract? Sure. But the idea is Briere's, and it was rotten.

The contract was/is the biggest problem. When you sign roster fillers to appropriate length (1 year ideally, 2 years as an absolute max) contracts, you can instruct your coach to play young players you think are ready over them (ala the mandate given to Tortorella to play Frost last year) and not worry about the consequences. When a guy is signed for 3 more years, all the sudden sending him to the press-box is a little tougher and more likely to present problems down the line.

But yes, he probably shouldn't have been signed in the first place either.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

That'll happen. They earned it. Also, definitely don't ever venture into a college sports internet discussion area, especially on FB. It's nothing but putting everyone down as viciously as possible. You won't like it.

It was a terrible situation. The people responsible for it deserve a thousand lifetimes of hell. The victims deserve more than the university and the legal system can ever give.

The students and alumni and fans had absolutely nothing to do with it though and hardly deserved the standard response for 5+ years (and still the standard response from some neanderthals) where people try to suck all the joy out of you any time you mention you went to Penn State, or you're excited about the football team.

And I'm not trying to claim I'm some type of victim. We all know who the real victims were. But the jokes really have gone stale.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Is Ovi generational?
He's in the same generation as Crosby.

If you want to argue semantics, that's fine. The point is that Dubas took over a team with a player who most now consider to be the 2nd or 3rd best forward in the game. And another top 10 forward in the game in Marner.

For a GM to inherit those 2 guys + Nylander all on ELCs / RFA contracts for 5 years and the best that GM could do is get his team to the 2nd round once? And people are sitting here praising the job he did and slurping the Penguins for hiring him?

And those same people are acting like giving up first round picks to try and sneak back into the playoffs and hope something magical happens with a downright elderly roster is a great plan?

No.

You're inability to see any shade of grey is really something to behold.

 

[kudymen]

You're inability to see any shade of grey is really something to behold.

Are you telling me you're actually reading it?

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Is oyvey the new deadhead?

 

[deadhead]

I take no responsibility for another poster with common sense.

Dubas did a mediocre job in Toronto, I mean with the talent he inherited, he should have been able to get deep into the playoffs a couple times if he built a team designed to excel in the post-season. The difference between Toronto and TB isn't star power, but the ability to develop depth in-house and use your assets wisely. And to adjust when flaws are exposed. And that's all on the GM.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I take no responsibility for another poster with common sense.

Dubas did a mediocre job in Toronto, I mean with the talent he inherited, he should have been able to get deep into the playoffs a couple times if he built a team designed to excel in the post-season. The difference between Toronto and TB isn't star power, but the ability to develop depth in-house and use your assets wisely. And to adjust when flaws are exposed. And that's all on the GM.

Ah, so Fletcher did a terrible job?

 

[pit]

I think I've brought more specifics on why he wasn't really that impressive (his draft record, his team's playoff lack of success, etc.).

I was curious about the draft record, so I went poking back at Toronto's drafting during this five year period.

Excluding Rodion Amirov (who had unexpected health issues), the Leafs picks from 2018-2022 (Toronto Maple Leafs Draft History at hockeydb.com) don't show me any misses when compared to players taken after them. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I'm not seeing where different picks would matter. Maybe if they had the prescience to take a Sharangovich or Kurashev late in 2018, but that would really be the hindsight at play. Maybe much further in the future down the development paths we'll see some other players emerge that could have been better options (or maybe we see the Leafs picks emerge as good choices?), but right now it seems the selections made weren't the issue.

If Dubas is to be cited for failure to develop from within, it could be because he traded away so many picks in an effort to garner playoff success that didn't pan out. I don't think it's an issue with quality of drafting, but rather volume.

One could argue this methodology of spending picks rather than sitting on one's hands had merit based on where the team was at in its contending window, but clearly the results weren't there in the end. All this to say: I don't think the drafting record for the Leafs based on players available when they picked currently indicates any real failure in their drafting.

 

[Cody Webster]

I take no responsibility for another poster with common sense.

Dubas did a mediocre job in Toronto, I mean with the talent he inherited, he should have been able to get deep into the playoffs a couple times if he built a team designed to excel in the post-season. The difference between Toronto and TB isn't star power, but the ability to develop depth in-house and use your assets wisely. And to adjust when flaws are exposed. And that's all on the GM.

Ah, so Fletcher did a terrible job?

 

[macleish1974]

Since I am a very simple person, with a series, definitely not a parallel, type mind, allow me the grace to add my two cents.

What is exciting is, whether in WJSS with Gauthier or some fun game like Mickov's "intramural" game, and unlike CO'C stupid comments, it is great that these players put up points in "meaningless" games as Charlie would say.

You all remember, where we hoped in one of these "meaningless" games, one of our players would not be

0 points
0 assists
0 PIM
O hits
11:09 playing time
-3 in +/-

But alas, they were.........and then make excuses

I say there is hope, not necessarily success, but hope. That is all I ask.

 

[Curufinwe]

Auston Matthews is not generational. McDavid has outscored him by 260 points since 16-17, and McDavid's P/GP of 1.53 is well ahead of Matthew's 1.13.

If you compare the first 7 seasons of Crosby and Ovechkin, Ovechkin outscored the often injured Crosby by 70 points, and Ovechkin's P/GP was 1.23, not too far behind Crosby's 1.4.

 

[PDX Flyer]

Widely regarded as one of the top 10 draft prospects ever scouted in the modern NHL, currently potting goals at a pace matched only really by Ovi in the modern NHL. Is that not generational?

The modern nhl is basically this generation, no? It starts and ends with McDavid

 

[lokomotiv15]

What are the odds Karlsson ever has a season like last season again at age 33 with a well deserved reputation as injury prone?

Dubas is in a no win situation, he could tank, but he can't move out most of the veterans due to their salaries, Crosby (2 more years $8.7M), Malkin ((3yr $6.1m), Rust (5yr, $5.1m), R Smith (2yr, $5M), Letang (5yr, $6.1M), Graves (6yr, $4.5M), Jarry (5yr, $5.4M). Guentzel is a UFA next year, so he could have moved Crosby and Guentzel, the rest I doubt have any value.

So if he does nothing, it's 3 years before he can clear out veterans and their salaries, and most will have zero trade value.
In that sense, Karlsson may sell tickets but he locks Dubas into the status quo for the next two years.
They've now traded their 2024 1st and 3rd and 2025 2nd. Have an empty talent pipeline and no opportunity to rebuild for 3-4 years.
So when they finally start to rebuild, it may be well into the next decade before they're competitive again.

Lol.

Lidstrom came back after the 04-05 Lockout as a 36 year old and scored 80 points and won 3 more Norris Trophies. Not the same player, but that Swede, Swede blood runs through both their veins.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I’m applying for a license to open a book with a target market of people who don’t understand what did and didn’t happen to the Leafs or think that Tortorella taught the Lightning how to win. If I can just figure out how to geofence that, it’s gold toilets for everyone.

 

[DancingPanther]

You don't have to ask if someone went to Penn State. They'll just tell you.

People who have an actual connection to the college they went to baffle me. You are a walking check to colleges anywhere. They don't care about you. College is a business and it should be treated as such: an investment for your future. Do you have pride in your vanguard account too? Not to mention the American college/University system is predatory and deserves no respect to start with

 

[Curufinwe]

So when they finally start to rebuild, it may be well into the next decade before they're competitive again.

They'll probably be competitive again before the Flyers. Also they have 20 years of recent success to tide them over.

3rd best P% since the 2005 lockout.

Most playoff wins.

3 Cups.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

You don't have to ask if someone went to Penn State. They'll just tell you.

People who have an actual connection to the college they went to baffle me. You are a walking check to colleges anywhere. They don't care about you. College is a business and it should be treated as such: an investment for your future. Do you have pride in your vanguard account too? Not to mention the American college/University system is predatory and deserves no respect to start with

Someone has to explain the flag thing to me. On the island where I live, there is at least one house on every block with a Penn St or Delaware flag flying. Is there a Pledge in the morning? Are rituals performed?

 

[DancingPanther]

Someone has to explain the flag thing to me. On the island where I live, there is at least one house on every block with a Penn St or Delaware flag flying. Is there a Pledge in the morning? Are rituals performed?

Jojo, it's like the bat signal. It's so they can flock together every Saturday to complain to anyone, whether they're listening or not, about that bald coach they have. Maybe that's the ritual, actually. If they don't say ALL HE CAN DO IS RECRUIT, they turn to a pillar of salt?

 

[wankstifier]

You don't have to ask if someone went to Penn State. They'll just tell you.

People who have an actual connection to the college they went to baffle me. You are a walking check to colleges anywhere. They don't care about you. College is a business and it should be treated as such: an investment for your future. Do you have pride in your vanguard account too? Not to mention the American college/University system is predatory and deserves no respect to start with

Without any evidence to back up this claim, I'd say that Penn State could be an exception because of how culty the the alumni seem to be. The return on investment is related to the solid network of former students.

 

[ponder719]

You don't have to ask if someone went to Penn State. They'll just tell you.

People who have an actual connection to the college they went to baffle me. You are a walking check to colleges anywhere. They don't care about you. College is a business and it should be treated as such: an investment for your future. Do you have pride in your vanguard account too? Not to mention the American college/University system is predatory and deserves no respect to start with

Depending on the college you went to, it could well be the same connection we have to the Flyers. (I mean, over and above the financially abusive relationship, that part's a given.) I went to a school with no D1 sports except lacrosse (we were grandfathered in by virtue of being the second-most successful lacrosse school before the NCAA took over as the governing body of the sport), so I don't have any strong pull in that regard myself.

Beyond that, people tend to bind up memories of good times they've had with the places they were when those things happened, and for a lot of people, a lot of their best memories and connections happened at college.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I’m applying for a license to open a book with a target market of people who don’t understand what did and didn’t happen to the Leafs or think that Tortorella taught the Lightning how to win. If I can just figure out how to geofence that, it’s gold toilets for everyone.

The funny thing is the analytical community criticized Dubas for going too heavy in the prototypical intangible/defensive depth market. Now most of these guys were at least decent at that & not of the superficial ilk. But a lot of these guys were offensive black holes at the time of the trade & continued as such in Toronto. It wasn’t even hindsight probably the biggest complaint on that end was the Nick Foligno deadline trade where he gave up a first rounder for a guy whose offensively ability at that point was completely cratered.

 

[Lindberg]

People who have an actual connection to the college they went to baffle me. You are a walking check to colleges anywhere. They don't care about you. College is a business and it should be treated as such: an investment for your future. Do you have pride in your vanguard account too? Not to mention the American college/University system is predatory and deserves no respect to start with

Look no further to the biggest cult that I am aware of. Virginia Tech.

Those people are like coackroaches, everywhere.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Without any evidence to back up this claim, I'd say that Penn State could be an exception because of how culty the the alumni seem to be. The return on investment is related to the solid network of former students.

OOOOH, you're gonna get it!

 

[DancingPanther]

Depending on the college you went to, it could well be the same connection we have to the Flyers. (I mean, over and above the financially abusive relationship, that part's a given.) I went to a school with no D1 sports except lacrosse (we were grandfathered in by virtue of being the second-most successful lacrosse school before the NCAA took over as the governing body of the sport), so I don't have any strong pull in that regard myself.

Beyond that, people tend to bind up memories of good times they've had with the places they were when those things happened, and for a lot of people, a lot of their best memories and connections happened at college.

The memories are made with the people, not the college