Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XCVIII: Orange is the new Orange (Poll in OP)

[TCTC]

Pittsburgh will have some fun riding off into the sunset, and could try for McKenna in a few years no?

Imagine growing up a hockey fan in this era cheering for the Penguins. Likeable players, fun approach to the game - and a solid ownership group that is most importantly able to approach the game in a modern way along with identifying its own mistakes.

But all that secondary depth the Flyers have had through the years.

Penguins fans are some of the most plastic fans in hockey. No respect for them. 90% of them will move to other teams as soon as Crosby and Co. are gone.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Penguins fans are some of the most plastic fans in hockey. No respect for them. 90% of them will move to other teams as soon as Crosby and Co. are gone.

I mean, Flyers fans stuck with this team for the last decade when it was quite obvious it was one of the worst run professional sports team in North America. Comcast didn't give a shit until fans stopped showing up to games.

 

[Sombastate]

What does this have to do with Fletcher? Some of you people are obsessed.

It has to do with a bad situation, and Karlsson isn't going to turn Pittsburgh into a contender unless a whole roster of over-30 players (12 of 20 starters) suddenly find the fountain of youth.
One problem is a number of players bounced back last season, yet they still ended up with 91 points, which means there's more downside than upside.

I haven’t mentioned Fletcher in months. I responded directly to a narrative you were peddling

 

[Cody Webster]

Kev dawg!

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

You guys keep making the mistake of comparing this to any other situation. The instruction has been get what you can out of the remaining core & then we’ll rebuild when that’s over. This is a core that won this organization three cups & a boatload of other games. It’s all gravy at this point when the core plays out its remaining years. It’s what the players want & it’s what the fan base wants.

And you seem to be making the mistake of suggesting that allowing the past glory of a group of aging players to define your franchise's future is effective management. I get why the Pens are doing what they are doing. In a vacuum the price they paid for Karlsson was a win. Giving your aging stars a victory lap is certainly nice. But giving up first round picks when a rebuild is ahead and nobody realistically believes you can contend for another cup is foolish.

Keeping that pick and using it on a promising prospect could help drastically shorten the length of the pending rebuild if you get the pick right. Or if the Pens management reads HFBoards and thinks every rebuild has to be a near decade long and the prospect of drafting a player who might be 24 or 25 by the time they're seriously ready to contend causes them to become physically ill, they could always *gasp* trade that pick for MORE FUTURE PICKS and accumulate assets ahead of the rebuild.

I think it'd be silly to suggest the Pens should dump their vets because as much as I hate those guys, they deserve to be Pens for life for what they've brought that franchise. But just because you can't squeeze any draft return out of Letang/Crosby/Malkin doesn't mean you also have to throw the assets you do have out with the bathwater.

FSG has a plan. It's clear, it's sensible, it's in lock-step with the fans, it's not delusional. And when Crosby goes, they will go totally scorched earth for the better part of a decade. They hired a very savvy President of Hockey Operations -- who wasn't their zero experience color commentator -- and he managed to totally erase Hextall's mess, add depth, and bring in the reigning Norris winner for pretty damn cheap. No one gives a shit if they're a true top 3-5 contender. But they do look like an improved playoff team for a couple years. That's all they want as their 3-time Cup winning generational player is putting up almost 100 points at age 35. You're being purposefully obtuse to not see this for what it is.

Meanwhile, the Flyers will still be the worst team in the Metro, while not selling off assets, having no clear long-term plan for contending after a decade of futility, and Gregorian chanting in Tortorella's presence.

Honestly, this just seems like you giving the Pens credit in an attempt to backhandedly shit on the Flyers.

FSG has a plan? Where's the evidence of that? They brought in a young executive who has never overseen a rebuild and whose teams woefully underperformed in the playoffs all 5 years he was at the helm. Dubas managed to get out of the first round once (his final year) and then crashed out as usual in the 2nd.

FSG inherited a team that's not really a cup contender, invested draft picks, and still nobody really expects them to challenge for a cup. All they've done is extended the length of their eventual rebuild. The fact that the fans are on board with it is largely irrelevant. I'm sure we could brainstorm about 25 or more horrible moves Flyers management made over the last decade that the fanbase was largely on board with. And those same fans kept selling out home games despite the ineptitude. Fans being in agreement as justification for a move is laughable.

Your evidence that they have a plan and your belief that they'll undertake a "proper" (in your opinion) rebuild for the better part of a decade seems to boil down to blind faith and the the fact that they aren't the Flyers.

 

[DancingPanther]

Oh nice, this guy is back

FSG has a plan. It's clear, it's sensible, it's in lock-step with the fans, it's not delusional. And when Crosby goes, they will go totally scorched earth for the better part of a decade. They hired a very savvy President of Hockey Operations -- who wasn't their zero experience color commentator -- and he managed to totally erase Hextall's mess, add depth, and bring in the reigning Norris winner for pretty damn cheap. No one gives a shit if they're a true top 3-5 contender. But they do look like an improved playoff team for a couple years. That's all they want as their 3-time Cup winning generational player is putting up almost 100 points at age 35. You're being purposefully obtuse to not see this for what it is.

Meanwhile, the Flyers will still be the worst team in the Metro, while not selling off assets, having no clear long-term plan for contending after a decade of futility, and Gregorian chanting in Tortorella's presence.

Gregorian chanting lol

 

[Magua]

Honestly, this just seems like you giving the Pens credit in an attempt to backhandedly shit on the Flyers.

FSG has a plan? Where's the evidence of that? They brought in a young executive who has never overseen a rebuild and whose teams woefully underperformed in the playoffs all 5 years he was at the helm. Dubas managed to get out of the first round once (his final year) and then crashed out as usual in the 2nd.

FSG inherited a team that's not really a cup contender, invested draft picks, and still nobody really expects them to challenge for a cup. All they've done is extended the length of their eventual rebuild. The fact that the fans are on board with it is largely irrelevant. I'm sure we could brainstorm about 25 or more horrible moves Flyers management made over the last decade that the fanbase was largely on board with. And those same fans kept selling out home games despite the ineptitude. Fans being in agreement as justification for a move is laughable.

Your evidence that they have a plan and your belief that they'll undertake a "proper" (in your opinion) rebuild for the better part of a decade seems to boil down to blind faith and the the fact that they aren't the Flyers.

Oh, make no mistake: there's nothing backhanded about it. It's a full on pimp slap.

Where's the evidence that FSG has a plan? Here's an entire article illuminating their plan and perception of the franchise in the 15 months post-purchase: Chaos, loathing and the Big Three: How the Penguins unraveled . And besides being an elite tier ownership group across multiple sports -- if you want to debate FSG's competency in a sea of billion dollar lemonade stands, I'm out -- you're seeing the manifestation of their plan this summer, and it's exactly what people are spelling out: riding off into the sunset with the most successful core in team history.

You can bury your head in the sand, but that is the plan. It's been well executed in the months following Hextall's firing. The inevitable teardown rebuild happens either way. Dubas has found cheap gem after gem for years to supplement a contender, but he can't execute a rebuild? A moron can do a rebuild. It's the easiest part; it's why those morons usually get canned after. But not having a moron certainly helps in finding more value.

There's two options: trade Crosby or keep going. No one wants to trade Crosby -- not ownership, not Crosby, not the fans. It is universal across all levels. They're not Chicago (pre-rebuild), with their window totally closed amid injuries and massive decline. The Capitals are just dangling around, without complaints, while Ovechkin chases a record. But the Penguins still have the talent and coaching to make the playoffs and see if there's some magic left (note the irony in the Flyers' "if we can just squeak into the playoffs" philosophy of contending). Adding Karlsson just sounds like a helluva good time, and that's all it's about: having a few more fun seasons before the party ends.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wasnt Hextall fired due to his refusal to lay out a long-term plan?

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Wasnt Hextall fired due to his refusal to lay out a long-term plan?

It was in his head movies.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/news/ron-hextall-map-future-pittsburgh-penguins

 

[deadhead]

Oh, make no mistake: there's nothing backhanded about it. It's a full on pimp slap.

Where's the evidence that FSG has a plan? Here's an entire article illuminating their plan and perception of the franchise in the 15 months post-purchase: Chaos, loathing and the Big Three: How the Penguins unraveled . And besides being an elite tier ownership group across multiple sports -- if you want to debate FSG's competency in a sea of billion dollar lemonade stands, I'm out -- you're seeing the manifestation of their plan this summer, and it's exactly what people are spelling out: riding off into the sunset with the most successful core in team history.

You can bury your head in the sand, but that is the plan. It's been well executed in the months following Hextall's firing. The inevitable teardown rebuild happens either way. Dubas has found cheap gem after gem for years to supplement a contender, but he can't execute a rebuild? A moron can do a rebuild. It's the easiest part; it's why those morons usually get canned after. But not having a moron certainly helps in finding more value.

There's two options: trade Crosby or keep going. No one wants to trade Crosby -- not ownership, not Crosby, not the fans. It is universal across all levels. They're not Chicago (pre-rebuild), with their window totally closed amid injuries and massive decline. The Capitals are just dangling around, without complaints, while Ovechkin chases a record. But the Penguins still have the talent and coaching to make the playoffs and see if there's some magic left (note the irony in the Flyers' "if we can just squeak into the playoffs" philosophy of contending). Adding Karlsson just sounds like a helluva good time, and that's all it's about: having a few more fun seasons before the party ends.

Uh, that article was about Hextall, not Dubas.

Here's what Dubas has actually done since he took over:
signed Lars Eller (34), 2yr/$4.9M
signed Ryan Graves D (28), 6yr/$27M
signed Noel Acciari F (32), 3 yr/$6M
traded 2024 3rd for Reilly Smith (32) 2yr/$10M left on contract

signed Jonathan Gruden C (23), 1 yr
signed Vinnie Hinostroza C (29). 1 yr
signed Andraes Johnsson F (28), 1 yr
signed Joona Koppanen F (24), 2 yr
signed Alex Nedelijkovic G (27), 1 yr
signed Matthew Nieto F (31), 2yr/$1.8M
signed Drew O'Conner F (25), 2yr/$1.85M
signed Ty Smith D (23), 1yr

left: Zucker (31), Dumoulin D (32), Danton Heinen C (28), Ryan Poehling C (24), Josh Archibald RW (31), Teddy Blueger C (29), Dmitry Kulikov D (33),

Karlsson trade, 2024 1st, 2025 2nd, DeSmith G (32), Petry D (36), Granlund F (31), Rutta D (33), for Karlsson (33), Rem Pitlick (26), and a 2025 3rd

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's really funny he thinks that's damning

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Oh, make no mistake: there's nothing backhanded about it. It's a full on pimp slap.

I didn't say you were being subtle, it just seems like you're giving a GM who failed in Toronto and an ownership group who had nothing to do with Pittsburgh's titles way too much credit. It seems like that credit is based on blind faith and a disdain for the Flyers regime, not the merits of FSG, Dubas or their "plan".

There's enough examples of actually successful organizations in hockey and Fletcher's disaster classes in asset management stand on their own. No need to give fake praise to a rival where it isn't really deserved just to beat the dead horse that is Chuckles.

Where's the evidence that FSG has a plan? Here's an entire article illuminating their plan and perception of the franchise in the 15 months post-purchase: Chaos, loathing and the Big Three: How the Penguins unraveled . And besides being an elite tier ownership group across multiple sports -- if you want to debate FSG's competency in a sea of billion dollar lemonade stands, I'm out -- you're seeing the manifestation of their plan this summer, and it's exactly what people are spelling out: riding off into the sunset with the most successful core in team history.

That was an interesting article, I appreciate you linking it. What I actually took from it is that an ownership group that by the author's admission (and the author implies FSG's own admission) did not know much about hockey decided to meddle in a very important hockey decision (the future of Malkin and Letang) about the team's future direction (presumably for business reasons). If you consider that what you want out of an owner of a sports franchise, then we really do have nothing else to discuss. Ignorant owners making franchise-altering decisions based mostly on the bottom line sounds exactly like how Josh Harris runs his teams. I'm sure FSG will make an absolute bag on their investment in the Pens. They will be wildly successful in generating profits. Will they have on ice success? I'm skeptical.

There was also a lot of amusing anecdotes about how big a failure Hextall is in that article, but I already knew that, so it's not surprising.

With respect to the "plan" I guess I should've been more specific... everybody has a plan. Whether that plan is intelligent or setting your team up for current/future on ice success is a different story. The Flyers trying to take a victory lap with Giroux was "a plan". It wasn't an intelligent one. Similarly, using assets to build around an aging team that is an unserious cup contender and hasn't been out of the 1st round in 5 years is unwise.

There's two options: trade Crosby or keep going. No one wants to trade Crosby -- not ownership, not Crosby, not the fans. It is universal across all levels. They're not Chicago (pre-rebuild), with their window totally closed amid injuries and massive decline. The Capitals are just dangling around, without complaints, while Ovechkin chases a record. But the Penguins still have the talent and coaching to make the playoffs and see if there's some magic left (note the irony in the Flyers' "if we can just squeak into the playoffs" philosophy of contending). Adding Karlsson just sounds like a helluva good time, and that's all it's about: having a few more fun seasons before the party ends.

This isn't a binary decision. You can still relive the glory years of Crosby, Malkin and Letang while not throwing every good future asset you've got at the problem desperately trying to chase a dragon you're extremely unlikely to catch. "Having a good time" and "having the fans on board" doesn't justify bad decisions. The Capitals aren't just "dangling around" they're actually STOCKING UP on future picks/assets and unloading the non-legends like Orlov for good returns. They're going to let Ovi continue to fill the seats and chase the glory of his record and retire having only worn a Capitals sweater while also trying to set themselves up for a future after Ovi that doesn't require a decade of ineptitude.

There are successful teams in this league that have only missed the playoffs once or twice while bridging eras. It is possible. Not the way the Pens are heading though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Anyone who thinks Dubas failed in Toronto must forget what Toronto was before he got there. And it turns out a big part of his "failure" was actually their own Olds gumming up the works.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Anyone who thinks Dubas failed in Toronto must forget what Toronto was before he got there. And it turns out a big part of his "failure" was actually their own Olds gumming up the works.

I'm confused... are you now suggesting Dubas was in charge of things / responsible for Toronto's success while he was an assistant GM and the main GM of the Marlies? Because if that's your assertion...

If you're talking about once he actually was named GM....
Before: 2 years of first round exits
After: 4 consecutive years of first/qualifying round exits

 

[Curufinwe]

As Toronto GM, Dubas had the 5th best regular season record, while the Flyers were 22nd in that time period. One of his playoff failures came at the hands of the best team in the league, Boston, and another came against the 2nd best, Tampa. That's the type of failure the Flyers can't even dream about experiencing anytime soon.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

As Toronto GM, Dubas had the 5th best regular season record, while the Flyers were 22nd in that time period. One of his playoff failures came at the hands of the best team in the league, Boston, and another came against the 2nd best, Tampa. That's the type of failure the Flyers can't even dream about experiencing anytime soon.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He inherited Auston f***ing Matthews, Mitch Marner and Nylander too. It's almost like when you have a generational talent and 2 additional all stars, all young to build around, the regular season is a foregone conclusion.

Please let me hear someone praise the job Dubas did building depth next, just so I can have an even bigger chuckle

 

[kudymen]

Oh Igor Silent, you welcome a new burner. Hilarious

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Oh, make no mistake: there's nothing backhanded about it. It's a full on pimp slap.

Where's the evidence that FSG has a plan? Here's an entire article illuminating their plan and perception of the franchise in the 15 months post-purchase: Chaos, loathing and the Big Three: How the Penguins unraveled . And besides being an elite tier ownership group across multiple sports -- if you want to debate FSG's competency in a sea of billion dollar lemonade stands, I'm out -- you're seeing the manifestation of their plan this summer, and it's exactly what people are spelling out: riding off into the sunset with the most successful core in team history.

You can bury your head in the sand, but that is the plan. It's been well executed in the months following Hextall's firing. The inevitable teardown rebuild happens either way. Dubas has found cheap gem after gem for years to supplement a contender, but he can't execute a rebuild? A moron can do a rebuild. It's the easiest part; it's why those morons usually get canned after. But not having a moron certainly helps in finding more value.

There's two options: trade Crosby or keep going. No one wants to trade Crosby -- not ownership, not Crosby, not the fans. It is universal across all levels. They're not Chicago (pre-rebuild), with their window totally closed amid injuries and massive decline. The Capitals are just dangling around, without complaints, while Ovechkin chases a record. But the Penguins still have the talent and coaching to make the playoffs and see if there's some magic left (note the irony in the Flyers' "if we can just squeak into the playoffs" philosophy of contending). Adding Karlsson just sounds like a helluva good time, and that's all it's about: having a few more fun seasons before the party ends.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He inherited Auston f***ing Matthews, Mitch Marner and Nylander too. It's almost like when you have a generational talent and 2 additional all stars, all young to build around, the regular season is a foregone conclusion.

Please let me hear someone praise the job Dubas did building depth next, just so I can have an even bigger chuckle

Dubs to me made a lot of good moves on paper. At some point you need to hold the player and coach accountable for he "failure"? Not all his fault.

Overall he was a good GM. Better than many.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm confused... are you now suggesting Dubas was in charge of things / responsible for Toronto's success while he was an assistant GM and the main GM of the Marlies? Because if that's your assertion...

If you're talking about once he actually was named GM....
Before: 2 years of first round exits
After: 4 consecutive years of first/qualifying round exits

Well, considering Toronto media cites his considerable influence in those days as being a major factor...

 

[GapToothedWonder]

He inherited Auston f***ing Matthews, Mitch Marner and Nylander too. It's almost like when you have a generational talent and 2 additional all stars, all young to build around, the regular season is a foregone conclusion.

Please let me hear someone praise the job Dubas did building depth next, just so I can have an even bigger chuckle

Sure a lot of generational talents out there today.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Dubs to me made a lot of good moves on paper. At some point you need to hold the player and coach accountable for he "failure"? Not all his fault.

Overall he was a good GM. Better than many.

If "better than many" is the standard we're going with, then sure. Given the circle jerk that was occurring in this thread, you'd think Dubas was actually responsible for winning a cup or at the very least getting to the finals...

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Sure a lot of generational talents out there today.

Widely regarded as one of the top 10 draft prospects ever scouted in the modern NHL, currently potting goals at a pace matched only really by Ovi in the modern NHL. Is that not generational?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Well, considering Toronto media cites his considerable influence in those days as being a major factor...

lol. Sure they did. The lengths you'll go to in order to avoid admitting you were wrong are mindblowing.

Do you know how many actual Dubas draft picks ever meaningfully contributed to the Toronto Maple Leafs during his tenure? One. Knies. And it was only finally this year.

But of course, you'll claim the 3 home run first round picks before he actually was the GM (Matthews, Marner, Nylander) were all him. He just must've lost his touch once he actually took the big boy seat.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Imagine being a fan of a team that has a Crosby even in his elder days.

Or say McDavid. Matthews. Marner.

Even if you don’t win, at least you have the fun of following a player like that.

Or cheering for Honda CRV’s.