Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVI: 86 Proof

[blackjackmulligan]

Was Giroux a good captain?

He was bad in some areas.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

He was bad in some areas.

Do tell.

 

[Tripod]

Leadership is real. But it can come from anyone and the guy with the C is not necessarily the top guy in the that depth.

When the film crew went into the lockerroom, we often saw Laughton as a guy speaking up. Being a Flyer for so long aids in this.

We saw the impact Jagr had getting Hartnell in the best shape of his life, renting icetime at night, etc...

We know how dedicated MacKinnon is toward his own health and training. For sure others will follow because of this, especially young guys. Others, not so much.

Was Mike Richard's a good leader when asked by coaches and mgt to stop drinking, and refused? On paper, the answer is no. And off ice, others following that lead was not a good thing. But on the ice, Richard's did everything you could ever ask of a leader and captain.

So maybe there is no cut and dry right answer either way.

 

[Flyerfan18]

Crosby is a hilarious example, when the Penguins were poorly coached he was assigned the blame and it was asserted that his leadership was the biggest reason for failure. Then they get a good coach and suddenly, overnight, he's Mr Leadership. What a crock of shit.



Hayes did this without being the captain.

Players aren't more entitled, the percentage of cap hit for star players has dropped overall.

As you pointed out he took the brunt of the blame. Another example of a great Captain. Thanks for making my point more clear Beef.

And Hayes is a leader and should have a letter. He is a team first player and a leader.

 

[Beef Invictus]

As you pointed out he took the brunt of the blame. Another example of a great Captain. Thanks for making my point more clear Beef.

And Hayes is a leader and should have a letter. He is a team first player and a leader.

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Do tell.

So you don't see any areas where he was not good at?

 

[Flyerfan18]

Was Giroux a good captain?

Average. Very good early on but last couple years he eased off. Maybe was part way to Ottawa already, maybe too busy being a Dad, who knows. Every player is different. A good Captain will figure out when to light a fire in the room, is in constant communication with management and will have his coaches back and vice versa.

That doesn't make any sense.

Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Average. Very good early on but last couple years he eased off. Maybe was part way to Ottawa already, maybe too busy being a Dad, who knows. Every player is different. A good Captain will figure out when to light a fire in the room, is in constant communication with management and will have his coaches back and vice versa.


Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

The problem here is that you have absolutely no idea what he does behind closed doors and you're incorrectly tying his ability as a leader, a captain, and as a player to the shitty roster construction of this team.

The team hasn't been shitty the last couple of years because "he eased off" and it wasn't "wasn't very good early on" because he was pedal to the metal.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Average. Very good early on but last couple years he eased off. Maybe was part way to Ottawa already, maybe too busy being a Dad, who knows. Every player is different. A good Captain will figure out when to light a fire in the room, is in constant communication with management and will have his coaches back and vice versa.


Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

No, please explain how a player being blamed for something that isn't their fault is remotely good or productive

 

[deadhead]

Having leaders is always going to be a thing that influences group dynamics, but that's not what this discussion is about. Hockey tradition just lionizes the Captaincy more than any other major sport. It's one of the core tenets of the subculture. A sign for the true believers. Is what it is.

Read any post about why NHL Captaincy is different from normal leadership and there will invariably be bitching about today's players or people today. That's not a coincidence

*Edit* hahahahahahahaha

The Captain thing is overblown.

The leadership thing isn't, but it's usually a core group of veterans who lead both by example and verbally, some are more extroverted, others simply outworked their peers and shame them into working harder. If your star players glide, aren't in top shape, and otherwise give the impression that's it's "just a job," young players can be led astray.

Hayes will be interesting to watch under Torts, there's no doubt he sacrificed his body for the team, but like JVR, there's also no doubt that at times he loses focus when he doesn't have the puck.

Torts has already said he's going to push Hayes, and I suspect JVR as well (now that he's stuck with him), the way he did Atkinson in CBJ. Asking them to "be all they can be" by making every shift count and play a complete game. If you can get your most talented veterans to buy in, it's easier to carry the rest of the team (Couts won't be an issue in this regard).

Provorov is a different issue, his work ethic is unquestioned, what Torts has to do is convince him to play to his strengths and not try to be what he isn't, he can be an impact defender but he'll always be best as second fiddle to an offensive partner.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No, please explain how a player being blamed for something that isn't their fault is remotely good or productive

Slow starts. Being unprepared. Lethargic play is not on the captain in any way.

 

[TheKingPin]

The Captain thing is overblown.

The leadership thing isn't, but it's usually a core group of veterans who lead both by example and verbally, some are more extroverted, others simply outworked their peers and shame them into working harder. If your star players glide, aren't in top shape, and otherwise give the impression that's it's "just a job," young players can be led astray.

Hayes will be interesting to watch under Torts, there's no doubt he sacrificed his body for the team, but like JVR, there's also no doubt that at times he loses focus when he doesn't have the puck.

Torts has already said he's going to push Hayes, and I suspect JVR as well (now that he's stuck with him), the way he did Atkinson in CBJ. Asking them to "be all they can be" by making every shift count and play a complete game. If you can get your most talented veterans to buy in, it's easier to carry the rest of the team (Couts won't be an issue in this regard).

Provorov is a different issue, his work ethic is unquestioned, what Torts has to do is convince him to play to his strengths and not try to be what he isn't, he can be an impact defender but he'll always be best as second fiddle to an offensive partner.

I wonder if Provy is training far far too much and that his hurting his play.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Slow starts. Being unprepared. Lethargic play is not on the captain in any way.

Captains aren't in charge of preparation. That's the coach's job.

Give the C to any player on the roster in any given game and it would have zero impact on how it unfolded. Wouldn't change the slow starts, wouldn't fix the bad coaching, wouldn't fix the lack of talent on the roster.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Giroux didn’t fight enough or hit enough. That’s what’s most important with this franchise because you have to uphold that tough guy mentality in this town. I bet some were clamoring for Dan Carcilo and Ben Eager to be captain of this franchise.
Hopefully in my lifetime the Flyers get with the 21st century. But I won’t hold my breath.

 

[Bigkarl]

Slow starts. Being unprepared. Lethargic play is not on the captain in any way.

Correct.

If you need a captain to regularly give a Braveheart speech before the game to get the team ready to play, I’d say you have some much bigger problems than the captain.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Captains aren't in charge of preparation. That's the coach's job.

Give the C to any player on the roster in any given game and it would have zero impact on how it unfolded. Wouldn't change the slow starts, wouldn't fix the bad coaching, wouldn't fix the lack of talent on the roster.

Wouldn’t fix the shitty defenseman on this team and poor goaltending. But Giroux gets hate because he wasn’t a tough guy. People think that’s the most important thing.
Poor management and poor goaltending will always put a team at a disadvantage. Coaching matters in every sport. For the most part they have come up incredibly small in coaching and management for the last decade. At least.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The only correct answer to was Giroux or anyone else is a good Captain is, “How the hell would I know?” No, you’re not so good at reading between the lines that you can tell from tv interviews.

Just like everyone else here, my opinion has no basis in reality to even consider it. We don’t know the nuts and bolts or how it fits into the larger picture. We know nothing other than how to pick out pieces of info that confirm our priors.

The arrogance it takes to speak to that authoritatively is staggering.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The captain is not like an NFL QB. Leadership in hockey is a group affair. The bigger the group the better. If you need your captain to handle the lion's share of motivation and preparation, then you have a bad roster full of slob anchors and a bad coach. None of that is the captain's fault and there's nothing any captain can do to change those things.

It's not a coincidence that all the "good" captains happen to play for really good teams with strong rosters. The teams aren't good because of their captains. They're good because they're well-made. Weird how all the honking over Toews being a leadership god disappeared when the team took a dive in quality. I doubt he forgot how to lead or is doing anything differently.

 

[Flyerfan18]

The problem here is that you have absolutely no idea what he does behind closed doors and you're incorrectly tying his ability as a leader, a captain, and as a player to the shitty roster construction of this team.

The team hasn't been shitty the last couple of years because "he eased off" and it wasn't "wasn't very good early on" because he was pedal to the metal.

Your correct. Only the players truly know. I don’t think the team was shitty because he eased off. I do think he did ease off though.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Great teams are more than the sum of its parts.
Team spirit and work ethic cannot be forced upon you by the HC or GM. In a league with lot of parity, leadership can move the needle.

They way you look at it being a hockey player sounds like an ordinary a 9-5 job.

You've really taken the propaganda hook line and sinker.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Question. If Kessel isn't signed at the start of the season does he lose his games played streak? My entire emotional investment in this up coming season is him breaking that rat f*** Yandles record.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Question. If Kessel isn't signed at the start of the season does he lose his games played streak? My entire emotional investment in this up coming season is him breaking that rat f*** Yandles record.

I don't think so

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Captains aren't in charge of preparation. That's the coach's job.

Give the C to any player on the roster in any given game and it would have zero impact on how it unfolded. Wouldn't change the slow starts, wouldn't fix the bad coaching, wouldn't fix the lack of talent on the roster.

Has anyone said otherwise? I surely haven't.

Do not agree with your slow starts take. That falls on the captain as well. You disagree. New topic. Any thoughts or expectation for Adam Ginning?

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I don't think so

Thank god. I hope you're right.

 

[mja]

I'm trying to figure out if Keith Primeau was a good captain. On one hand, he was a perennial playoff disappointment and the ringleader of the Barber debacle, on the other he had one of the great playoff performances in Flyers history. So confusing.