McDavid becomes the 3rd player in NHL history to score 40 points in a playoff run - after Wayne and Mario

jigglysquishy

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Scoring isn’t everything however I don’t get what your argument is about Howe being better. Women lie, men lie- numbers don’t. And the numbers are right in front of you.
Raw numbers don't tell you anything. Some eras it's easier to score than others.

In 1952-53, quite easily Howe's best season, he put up 95 points. The closest non-teammate, Maurice Richard, only put up 61 points. It's one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history.

In 1988-89, Lemieux put up 199 points. 4 players exceeded 150 points. 85 players scored more than 61 points. It is one of the highest scoring seasons in NHL history.

When you take into account their scoring environments, Lemieux’s offensive edge drops dramatically. He still had a higher offensive peak, but it's rather slim. Howe counters it as the clear best defensive winger of his era. And the unquestionably best longevity in the sport's history.

Howe over Lemieux is a very easy choice for me.
 

AvroArrow

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Jun 10, 2011
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Mcdavid keeping it 100% is the best north american sports athlete ever on skill and talent

Lebron wasnt as skilled or talented and dominanted a sport where 1 player has access and allowance to dominate the ball much higher than hockey

Kobe the same except hes 10% worse than Lebron

MJ played in a lower competition era so while he and ( Lemieux and Greztky) dominated the league at higher levels than Mcdavid, they had worse defensive schemes and systems to play against and lower skilled compeitition

No baseball player was putting 75 HR + 200 RBIs + .350 BA type years

NFL dont think any player individually was this talented

People are so normalized/accustomed to Mcdavid we dont realize he just put up 42 pts in 23 games...

This is the best playoff run in NHL history
Your basketball opinions suck

I typed a long ass response to them but hit delete at the end, in short they suck and you couldn't be more wrong.

But yes McJesus is an absolute phenom.
 

Video Nasty

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You missed out the part where Howe is one of the greatest two-way forwards in history. So add a f***ing Bergeron-level two-way dominance to his offensive contribution. You also missed out the part where Howe is one of the greatest physical presences in history. So add a f***ing Ovechkin hitting machine.

The reasons why Howe didn't score 100 points are: (1) there were fewer games per season, (2) the scoring levels were an order of magnitude lower, and (3) he played against the same great teams game after game. He didn't have the bottom feeders to feast upon, unlike Lemieux. As soon as the bottom-feeders were introduced into the league (1st expansion), Howe immediately scored 100 points... at the age of 41! By that age, Lemieux was already solidly golfing.

That guy doesn’t get that prior to the year Howe scored 103 points in 76 games in his age 40 season, there had been a grand total of zero 100 point seasons.

So to recap. Howe authored just the third instance of a 100 point season up to that point in time, reaching it a few weeks later than Esposito did for the first time. His two all-time peers ahead of him who reached it first were 26 and 30 years old.

Shame on Howe for not having more than one.
 
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Nathaniel Skywalker

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Oct 18, 2013
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Raw numbers don't tell you anything. Some eras it's easier to score than others.

In 1952-53, quite easily Howe's best season, he put up 95 points. The closest non-teammate, Maurice Richard, only put up 61 points. It's one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history.

In 1988-89, Lemieux put up 199 points. 4 players exceeded 150 points. 85 players scored more than 61 points. It is one of the highest scoring seasons in NHL history.

When you take into account their scoring environments, Lemieux’s offensive edge drops dramatically. He still had a higher offensive peak, but it's rather slim. Howe counters it as the clear best defensive winger of his era. And the unquestionably best longevity in the sport's history.

Howe over Lemieux is a very easy choice for me.
There were players putting up similar numbers to howe in his era. He scored 95 points for example and around that time people were scoring in the high 80's etc. Im 89 out of the 4 150 point scorers 2 were mario n wayne. One yzerman n one gretzkys linemate. So really would have only been 3. 44 points back of what lemieux scored regardless. Lemieuxs 44 points playoff has taken 33 years to be threatened n it takes a player like mcdavid to do so. If mcdavid wins the cup ill have him over howe. Mario>Howe
 
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Mike C

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You missed out the part where Howe is one of the greatest two-way forwards in history. So add a f***ing Bergeron-level two-way dominance to his offensive contribution. You also missed out the part where Howe is one of the greatest physical presences in history. So add a f***ing Ovechkin hitting machine.

The reasons why Howe didn't score 100 points are: (1) there were fewer games per season, (2) the scoring levels were an order of magnitude lower, and (3) he played against the same great teams game after game. He didn't have the bottom feeders to feast upon, unlike Lemieux. As soon as the bottom-feeders were introduced into the league (1st expansion), Howe immediately scored 100 points... at the age of 41! By that age, Lemieux was already solidly golfing.
I'm a big Howe proponent also!!
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

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In howes best playoff in 55 he led his team in scoring by 1 n the nearest non teamate by 7.
Lemieux had 25! More points than the closest non pen in 91 n connor currently has 20 more. Much more dominant
 
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Mike C

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Mcdavid keeping it 100% is the best north american sports athlete ever on skill and talent

Lebron wasnt as skilled or talented and dominanted a sport where 1 player has access and allowance to dominate the ball much higher than hockey

Kobe the same except hes 10% worse than Lebron

MJ played in a lower competition era so while he and ( Lemieux and Greztky) dominated the league at higher levels than Mcdavid, they had worse defensive schemes and systems to play against and lower skilled compeitition

No baseball player was putting 75 HR + 200 RBIs + .350 BA type years

NFL dont think any player individually was this talented

People are so normalized/accustomed to Mcdavid we dont realize he just put up 42 pts in 23 games...

This is the best playoff run in NHL history
Magic Johnson, Babe Ruth, Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali all say what's up!!

Esposito >> Crosby
Phil doesn't get respected for how great he really was
 
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Mike C

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There were players putting up similar numbers to howe in his era. He scored 95 points for example and around that time people were scoring in the high 80's etc. Im 89 out of the 4 150 point scorers 2 were mario n wayne. One yzerman n one gretzkys linemate. So really would have only been 3. 44 points back of what lemieux scored regardless. Lemieuxs 44 points playoff has taken 33 years to be threatened n it takes a player like mcdavid to do so. If mcdavid wins the cup ill have him over howe. Mario>Howe
Mario = Howe
 

WalterLundy

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There were players putting up similar numbers to howe in his era. He scored 95 points for example and around that time people were scoring in the high 80's etc. Im 89 out of the 4 150 point scorers 2 were mario n wayne. One yzerman n one gretzkys linemate. So really would have only been 3. 44 points back of what lemieux scored regardless. Lemieuxs 44 points playoff has taken 33 years to be threatened n it takes a player like mcdavid to do so. If mcdavid wins the cup ill have him over howe. Mario>Howe
I get the career value perspective, the longevity and the great peak when compared to his peers/contextualized/adjusted.

I respect Howe a lot but I never saw him play so it’s hard for me to rank him above Lemieux (or McDavid) as a player. For career I see why this site has Howe ranked above Lemieux but for peak full seasons as a player I feel Lemieux and Connor clear him.

1988-89: EVG: 2.53, PPG: 1.06, SHG: 0.15

Peak full season for each (minimum 90% of scheduled games played)

Adjustments to 88-89

Lemieux 88-89:
76 GP: 85 G, 114 A, 199 P (2.62)

McDavid 22-23:
82 GP: 81 G, 125 A, 206 P (2.51)

Howe 52-53:
70 GP: 78 G, 76 A, 154 P (2.20)

While Howe’s goal scoring is nutty I just feel that 26-34 point gaps over 82 games respectively is hard to overlook. Then I guess you have to factor in the two way play but for me it’s just hard to see Howe being better than either given what I’ve seen since the late 70s early 80s (and never got to see from Howe). Especially as an offensive producer I feel it’s clear. Maybe I’m biased as Lemieux is our franchise guy and I’m a fan of McDavid’s right now but who knows.
 
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Sentinel

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Back to the OP.

If McDavid breaks Gretzky's record but Edmonton doesn't win the Cup, it means even the best offensive player giving the best ever offensive performance may not be enough to win the Cup because hockey is a team sport.

But is the opposite also true? If Edmonton wins the Cup, can it be surmised that one player can, in fact, win all by himself? Or will people start bringing up Bouchard, Skinner, etc. to challenge this notion?
 
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Coffey

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Back to the OP.

If McDavid breaks Gretzky's record but Edmonton doesn't win the Cup, it means even the best offensive player giving the best ever offensive performance may not be enough to win the Cup because hockey is a team sport.

But is the opposite also true? If Edmonton wins the Cup, can it be surmised that one player can, in fact, win all by himself? Or will people start bringing up Bouchard, Skinner, etc. to challenge this notion?
Oilers are being propelled to this game 6 by a godly PK which is out of 97s control. Plenty of good saves by Skinner too. It’s a team effort.
 

Kerberos

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In basketball you just need to be over 6'7 tall giant and you are a pro after a bit of practice.
Why do people who are ignorant about other sports and don't know anything about them feel the need to show how clueless they are?

Imagine thinking, let alone uttering such a ridiculous statement. Watch sports other than hockey some time maybe.
 

blundluntman

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Jul 30, 2016
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Mcdavid keeping it 100% is the best north american sports athlete ever on skill and talent

Lebron wasnt as skilled or talented and dominanted a sport where 1 player has access and allowance to dominate the ball much higher than hockey

Kobe the same except hes 10% worse than Lebron

MJ played in a lower competition era so while he and ( Lemieux and Greztky) dominated the league at higher levels than Mcdavid, they had worse defensive schemes and systems to play against and lower skilled compeitition

No baseball player was putting 75 HR + 200 RBIs + .350 BA type years

NFL dont think any player individually was this talented

People are so normalized/accustomed to Mcdavid we dont realize he just put up 42 pts in 23 games...

This is the best playoff run in NHL history
All due respect (and not much is due with a take this terrible), Jordan would have no trouble against any level of competition













And as far as defensive systems are concerned, it was WAAAY harder to score in the 90s than it is today. Especially as a mid range scorer who attacked the rim like Jordan.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Scoring isn’t everything however I don’t get what your argument is about Howe being better. Women lie, men lie- numbers don’t. And the numbers are right in front of you.
Here are some reasons why the scoring environment was so different for Howe and Lemieux:

For most of Howe's career, the season was only 70 games long. It was extended to 76 games (still less than the length during Lemieux's career) in 1969, when Howe was 40 years old. He scored 100 points right away, despite being more than a decade past his peak. Schedule length matters.

Howe peaked during one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history. During the six years he won the Art Ross, there were just 5.26 goals per game. That's a lower scoring environment than the mid 2010's, or even the Dead Puck Era (1997 to 2004). During the six years Lemieux won the Art Ross, there were 6.87 goals per game. We still need to do a deeper dive, but this alone shows that Lemieux played in a league with 31% more goals per game. That's huge.

On top of there being fewer goals per game, there were fewer assists per goal. In 1953 (Howe's best season), there were 1.50 assists per goal leaguewide. In 1989 (Lemieux's best season), there were 1.66 assists per goal. Not a huge difference, but it still should be considered.

In 1953 (Howe's best season), he scored 49 goals and 46 assists in 70 games, in a league that featured just 4.80 goals per game. If we "translate" that into the scoring environment in 1989, we'd get 49 * 82/70 * 7.48/4.80 = 87 goals and 46 * 82/70 * 7.48/4.80 * 1.66/1.50 = 91 assists for 177 points. This is a ballpark calculation - and Lemieux is still ahead - but it's much closer than the raw numbers suggest.

Even this approach is imperfect, because there were so many fewer powerplays during Howe's best years. This disproportionately affects star players like him. In 1953, Howe led the league with 27 PP points. That would have ranked him tied for 60th in 1989 (behind players like Scott Young, Eddie Olczyk, Mike Ridley, and Walt Poddubny). The difference in PP opportunities was vast, but even before we account for that, Howe's 95 points from 1953 is worth something like 170-180 in 1989.

For the PPG calculations - not only do you need to account for all the factors I just mentioned, you're also comparing players who's career arcs are very different. Lemieux was able to preserve his PPG because he played so few games after age 31 (we see the same thing with Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Peter Forsberg, etc). Lemieux played just 170 games after age 31 (19% of his career total). Howe played 851 games after that age (48% of his total). That's almost Lemieux's entire career! Of course his PPG average is going to be dragged down. (Jagr is a good, similar example - when he left the NHL after 2008, his PPG was 1.26 - higher than Crosby! He came back and played several hundred games in his late 30's and into his 40's, and his PPG dropped - now it's lower than players he was very clearly better than, such as Hawerchuk, Perreault, Lafontaine, Savard, Federko, Bure, Sakic, Yzerman - in effect, Jagr is being penalized for being a healthy, productive player into his 40's - the same thing is happening to Howe in this simplistic comparison).

Plus, as others have mentioned, Howe was a physical force (ie Ovechkin or Messier) and a very good defensive forward. The plus/minus component data (goals for and goals against at ES) only exists from 1960 onwards, when Howe was already in his 30's. Even though we don't have the actual data for his peak, Howe's results from his 30's are still better than Lemieux's (in terms of how much he was able to drive his team's goal differential higher, while on the ice - which is entirely consistent with what we'd expect from both players - two-way power forward vs someone solely focused on offense).

This was a longer response than I intended. But I'm trying to show how vastly different the scoring environment was for Howe and Lemieux. Essentially all of the factors that we need to account for, have inflated Lemieux's numbers. Ultimately, I still think that Lemieux was the better offensive talent, but the gap is vastly smaller than the numbers suggest. Peak vs peak, given Howe's two-way play and ability to stay in the lineup, I would give him a narrow edge over Lemieux. In terms of career value, it's not even close.
 
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Nathaniel Skywalker

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Here are some reasons why the scoring environment was so different for Howe and Lemieux:

For most of Howe's career, the season was only 70 games long. It was extended to 76 games (still less than the length during Lemieux's career) in 1969, when Howe was 40 years old. He scored 100 points right away, despite being more than a decade past his peak. Schedule length matters.

Howe peaked during one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history. During the six years he won the Art Ross, there were just 5.26 goals per game. That's a lower scoring environment than the mid 2010's, or even the Dead Puck Era (1997 to 2004). During the six years Lemieux won the Art Ross, there were 6.87 goals per game. We still need to do a deeper dive, but this alone shows that Lemieux played in a league with 31% more goals per game. That's huge.

On top of there being fewer goals per game, there were fewer assists per goal. In 1953 (Howe's best season), there were 1.50 assists per goal leaguewide. In 1989 (Lemieux's best season), there were 1.66 assists per goal. Not a huge difference, but it still should be considered.

In 1953 (Howe's best season), he scored 49 goals and 46 assists in 70 games, in a league that featured just 4.80 goals per game. If we "translate" that into the scoring environment in 1989, we'd get 49 * 82/70 * 7.48/4.80 = 87 goals and 46 * 82/70 * 7.48/4.80 * 1.66/1.50 = 91 assists for 177 points. This is a ballpark calculation - and Lemieux is still ahead - but it's much closer than the raw numbers suggest.

Even this approach is imperfect, because there were so many fewer powerplays during Howe's best years. This disproportionately affects star players like him. In 1953, Howe led the league with 27 PP points. That would have ranked him tied for 60th in 1989 (behind players like Scott Young, Eddie Olczyk, Mike Ridley, and Walt Poddubny). The difference in PP opportunities was vast, but even before we account for that, Howe's 95 points from 1953 is worth something like 170-180 in 1989.

For the PPG calculations - not only do you need to account for all the factors I just mentioned, you're also comparing players who's career arcs are very different. Lemieux was able to preserve his PPG because he played so few games after age 31 (we see the same thing with Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Peter Forsberg, etc). Lemieux played just 170 games after age 31 (19% of his career total). Howe played 851 games after that age (48% of his total). That's almost Lemieux's entire career! Of course his PPG average is going to be dragged down. (Jagr is a good, similar example - when he left the NHL after 2008, his PPG was 1.26 - higher than Crosby! He came back and played several hundred games in his late 30's and into his 40's, and his PPG dropped - now it's lower than players he was very clearly better than, such as Hawerchuk, Perreault, Lafontaine, Savard, Federko, Bure, Sakic, Yzerman - in effect, Jagr is being penalized for being a healthy, productive player into his 40's - the same thing is happening to Howe in this simplistic comparison).

Plus, as others have mentioned, Howe was a physical force (ie Ovechkin or Messier) and a very good defensive forward. The plus/minus component data (goals for and goals against at ES) only exists from 1960 onwards, when Howe was already in his 30's. Even though we don't have the actual data for his peak, Howe's results from his 30's are still better than Lemieux's (in terms of how much he was able to drive his team's goal differential higher, while on the ice - which is entirely consistent with what we'd expect from both players - two-way power forward vs someone solely focused on offense).

This was a longer response than I intended. But I'm trying to show how vastly different the scoring environment was for Howe and Lemieux. Essentially all of the factors that we need to account for, have inflated Lemieux's numbers. Ultimately, I still think that Lemieux was the better offensive talent, but the gap is vastly smaller than the numbers suggest. Peak vs peak, given Howe's two-way play and ability to stay in the lineup, I would give him a narrow edge over Lemieux. In terms of career value, it's not even close.
The gap still looks to be 30 points. So what is the argument now?
 

Hockey Outsider

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The gap still looks to be 30 points. So what is the argument now?
Like I said, I think Lemieux is the better offensive talent. But we're down from a 90+ gap in points to roughly 22 points. For a 20-25 point game in production, I'd take a two-way power forward who stays healthy vs a one-way centre with a long history of injury problems. If someone picks Lemieux and wants to bet on him staying healthy, I get it - he's a special talent. But I was trying to explain why you can't compare stats 40 years apart without looking at some of the context.
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

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Like I said, I think Lemieux is the better offensive talent. But we're down from a 90+ gap in points to roughly 22 points. For a 20-25 point game in production, I'd take a two-way power forward who stays healthy vs a one-way centre with a long history of injury problems. If someone picks Lemieux and wants to bet on him staying healthy, I get it - he's a special talent. But I was trying to explain why you can't compare stats 40 years apart without looking at some of the context.
Great analysis as always. I just think 25 more points is too much to overlook. Or else Barkov would be winning the smythe this year know? Its nice to speculate how the two would be percieved if they were playing at the same time. But the hockey world runs on offense. Which is why the best offensive player is always regarded as the best in the world.
 
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Bertuzzzi44

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Mcdavid has passed the deep great playoff performance requirement for an all time great, no one with any logic can hold not winning a Stanley Cup against him anymore. There is only so much 1 player can do, he’s literally carrying his team and breaking all kinds of records, now sits Top 3 All Time for playoff points alongside Lemieux & Gretzky. Hat’s off to 97, incredible performance.
 

norrisnick

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Great analysis as always. I just think 25 more points is too much to overlook. Or else Barkov would be winning the smythe this year know? Its nice to speculate how the two would be percieved if they were playing at the same time. But the hockey world runs on offense. Which is why the best offensive player is always regarded as the best in the world.
There is a difference between 25 point gap in a full season and a 25 point gap in the playoffs.

If Barkov had 120 points (ie within 25 points of the leaders) in the regular season he'd be winning the Hart.
 

67 others

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Mario dealt with injuries and cancer throughout his career lol. You’re leaving that part out. Mario has the second highest PPG ever even with injuries and cancer- only 0.04 behind Gretzky for a 1.88 ppg total

Howe is 47th all time lol with a ppg of 1.05- BARELY above a point.

Howe despite playing 4 decades only has 127 pts more than Mario lol.

Howe played 852 more games than Mario. Almost double his games of 915 and only managed to have 127 more points then the magnificent one.

Howe has only a goals per game of 0.45. Marios is second highest all time. Only trailing Mike bossy by 0.01 with 0.75

Marios best season is 1988/1989 where he put up a whopping 85 goals and 114 assists for 199 points in only 76 games (yes he didn’t even play a full season in his prime but still managed to get 96 more points and 41 more goals then Howes highest scoring season in 1968/1969 where he also played 76 games.

Same amount of art rosses in a harder era than the 40s/50s/60s with 6 despite again having cancer and missing a ton of games with injuries.

Thanks for the good laugh
The 80s and early 90s were not a harder era than 06 lol

It was the era of odd man rushes every shift because dmen were joining the rush and not getting back in the 80s.

In the 50s, a defenseman getting 35-50 points was actually considered very good and an eye popping number because they didn't join the rush, nor did they allow odd man rushes. All the best players were concentrated in 6 teams and players who were elite also got stuck in the AHL.

Howe's 95 point season in 70 games in 1953 is almost universally regarded by historians as if he scored 165 points in the 80s while being defensively elite and carrying all the clutch iron man power and grit of prime Mark Messier.

The reason Eric Lindros was so highly regarded as a prospect is because he was being favorably compared to Hart Messier, or regarded as Howe lite.

When Lindros scored 70 points in 46 games and was a physical force, folks in 95 were going "he's on track to be a Hart Messier. A few improvements in consistency and defensive play and he will soon be in the conversation to be compared to Howe"
 
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