McDavid becomes the 3rd player in NHL history to score 40 points in a playoff run - after Wayne and Mario

[Bertuzzzi44]

Great analysis as always. I just think 25 more points is too much to overlook. Or else Barkov would be winning the smythe this year know? Its nice to speculate how the two would be percieved if they were playing at the same time. But the hockey world runs on offense. Which is why the best offensive player is always regarded as the best in the world.

Barkov’s getting torched, Selke went to the wrong guy, Panthers team defence as a 5 man unit 5-on-5 is great but Barkov from an individual shutdown perspective has been very underwhelming.

Bob got lit up the past few games and the point spread between Tkachuck & 97 is too big to overlook. Smythe is McDavid’s unless 1 of the 3 panthers mentioned has an amazing game 6.

 

[WalterLundy]

Great analysis as always. I just think 25 more points is too much to overlook. Or else Barkov would be winning the smythe this year know? Its nice to speculate how the two would be percieved if they were playing at the same time. But the hockey world runs on offense. Which is why the best offensive player is always regarded as the best in the world.

Average Lemieux Art Ross environment:
(88, 89, 92, 93, 96, 97)
EVG: 2.34, PPG: 0.96, SHG: 0.15

Totals from Art Ross years:
423 GP: 387 G, 554 A, 941 P (2.22)
Per 82: 75 G, 107 A, 182 P

Average Howe Art Ross environment:
(51, 52, 53, 54, 57, 63)
EVG: 2.03, PPG: 0.54, SHG: 0.06

Totals from Art Ross years:
420 GP: 254 G, 269 A, 523 P (1.25)

Adjusted to the average Lemieux Art Ross environment:
420 GP: 336 G, 374 A, 710 P (1.69)
Per 82: 66 G, 73 A, 139 P

This widens the gap to 43 per 82. Howe for career and for two way is better but I do still believe the offensive gap is rather massive even with adjustment. I see everyone’s points though.

McDavid’s last 6 year environment:
EVG: 2.34, PPG: 0.61, SHG: 0.09

Totals (18-19 to 23-24):
436 GP: 248 G, 478 A, 726 P (1.67)

Adjusted to average Lemieux Art Ross environment:
436 GP: 290 G, 599 A, 889 P (2.04)
Per 82: 55 G, 113 A, 168 P

In my mind the 29 per 82 gap between Howe and McDavid is also very big. Then again the only player who has a 6 year average or Ross stretch (and when adjusted) that is definitely better than Mario’s offensively is Gretzky so we can’t fault Howe here too much. This does kind of reflect what I believe the gap would be between Lemieux and McDavid in a similar league at their bests though (10-15 points) as someone who watched both.

 

[hamzarocks]

Your basketball opinions suck

I typed a long ass response to them but hit delete at the end, in short they suck and you couldn't be more wrong.

But yes McJesus is an absolute phenom.

nah LBJ/Kobe didnt ever have a single carry job as hard a

All due respect (and not much is due with a take this terrible), Jordan would have no trouble against any level of competition













And as far as defensive systems are concerned, it was WAAAY harder to score in the 90s than it is today. Especially as a mid range scorer who attacked the rim like Jordan.

Its not whether Jordan would have dominated the league he would habe 100%

Jordan + Scottie Pippen + Triangle are not winning 6 rings in 9 years basically in modern NBA. Any one who can expeft that type of dominance is nostalgic or simply not willing to accept the change of sports landscape

For Mcdavid he js dominating the league at a level we saw from 90s Jordan, 80s Gretzky and early 90s Lemieux

Hes doing this in 2024 which no one thought was possible

No nba fan thinks a player can put up 37/38 pts + 6-7 rebs and assists on 50+ fg while being an elite defensive player for the year in the modern NBA like Jordan put up in the 80s. If a player does that now in the 20s he would dominate the f*** out of the 80s and 90s as well

 

[frontsfan67]

Like I said, I think Lemieux is the better offensive talent. But we're down from a 90+ gap in points to roughly 22 points. For a 20-25 point game in production, I'd take a two-way power forward who stays healthy vs a one-way centre with a long history of injury problems. If someone picks Lemieux and wants to bet on him staying healthy, I get it - he's a special talent. But I was trying to explain why you can't compare stats 40 years apart without looking at some of the context.

If he was healthy he would have Gretzky type of numbers who is the consensus goat.

Also you’re not taking the injuries serious lol. In the prime of his career he got cancer and injuries derailing his numbers. He wouldve had even more numbers if he wasnt injured and got cancer through his 20s and 30s in the prime of his career lol. In his best season he still had 6 games to be played he would’ve without a doubt been the second ever to get a 200pt season.

although Lemieux wasn’t as good of an all around player that Howe was, he still wasn’t no scrub defensively and he is way better offensively. Put Lemieux in howes league and he’s putting up 150pts every season- he would be like an alien they would’ve never seen anything like it up until that point.

If you add on the games that Howe played over Lemieux (852) and put lemieuxs average down half a point per game (0.5)accounting for him getting older and going into his 40s he would still have a 1.38ppg. And he would have an extra 1176 points. 1723+1175 =2898 and we have a new nhl record for points supassing Gretzkys 2857 lol.

Lemieux came back after being off for 3 years to still put up 76pts in 43 games for a 1.76 ppg. If he played the full 82 games then he would’ve had 144 points, 23 more than jagr who won the art ross that year.

170 games played out of 410 after the 3 years off where anyone else would have just retired for good and put up 229 pts for a 1.34ppg while injured nonstop and unable to stay healthy in puck era where scoring was way down. In 2002/2003 he came 8th in total scoring despite only playing 67 games. Had he played the full season he would’ve had 111pts placing him above Peter forsberg for the year as a 37 year old. Arguably howes best season in 1952/1953 where he had 95 pts in 70 games- he had. 1.35 ppg average as a 25 year old in the prime of his career.

Can keep going but I think I proved my point.

 

[blundluntman]

nah LBJ/Kobe didnt ever have a single carry job as hard a

Its not whether Jordan would have dominated the league he would habe 100%

Jordan + Scottie Pippen + Triangle are not winning 6 rings in 9 years basically in modern NBA. Any one who can expeft that type of dominance is nostalgic or simply not willing to accept the change of sports landscape

For Mcdavid he js dominating the league at a level we saw from 90s Jordan, 80s Gretzky and early 90s Lemieux

Hes doing this in 2024 which no one thought was possible

No nba fan thinks a player can put up 37/38 pts + 6-7 rebs and assists on 50+ fg while being an elite defensive player for the year in the modern NBA like Jordan put up in the 80s. If a player does that now in the 20s he would dominate the f*** out of the 80s and 90s as well

It's not just the championships with Jordan, it's the 10 scoring titles and 9 all NBA defense selections; he utterly dominated offensively and defensively. He'd be scoring way more in today's NBA without hand checks and the abusive defensive play that was allowed, just watch his games against the Knicks and Pistons, none of that would fly nowadays. Not to mention players nowadays are allowed to do all sorts of stuff that was considered a carry or travel prior to the 2010s. He'd perenially put up 38+ nowadays if someone like Harden was able to put up 36.5ppg not too long ago. You're seriously selling him short.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

There is a difference between 25 point gap in a full season and a 25 point gap in the playoffs.

If Barkov had 120 points (ie within 25 points of the leaders) in the regular season he'd be winning the Hart.

Datsyuk lost 2 harts while scoring 97 points and the selke to 112 point ovechkin n 110 point ovechkin. So I disagree.

 

[jigglysquishy]

although Lemieux wasn’t as good of an all around player that Howe was, he still wasn’t no scrub defensively and he is way better offensively. Put Lemieux in howes league and he’s putting up 150pts every season- he would be like an alien they would’ve never seen anything like it up until that point.

He absolutely was.

Both Gretzky and Lemieux were weak defensively in their weak. A huge gap below Howe, and a noticeable drop below Crosby and McDavid. That was the style of the era, but making the claim that he wasn't a scrub defensively just shows ignorance to Lemieux's career.


When Howe put up 95 in 70 (1.36 PPG) there were no non-linemates that were a PPG in the NHL. Scoring started to slowly creep up in 1955, until exploding in 1968. But Howe peaked in one of the hardest scoring environments in NHL history.

In the 5 years surrounding his peak year (1950-51 through 1954-55) he has the four highest scoring seasons (95, 86, 86, 81). That means, over that five season stretch, no one else in the league even hit 80 points. Only three non-linemates hit 70 points.

Average Lemieux Art Ross environment:
(88, 89, 92, 93, 96, 97)
EVG: 2.34, PPG: 0.96, SHG: 0.15

Totals from Art Ross years:
423 GP: 387 G, 554 A, 941 P (2.22)
Per 82: 75 G, 107 A, 182 P

Average Howe Art Ross environment:
(51, 52, 53, 54, 57, 63)
EVG: 2.03, PPG: 0.54, SHG: 0.06

Totals from Art Ross years:
420 GP: 254 G, 269 A, 523 P (1.25)

Adjusted to the average Lemieux Art Ross environment:
420 GP: 336 G, 374 A, 710 P (1.69)
Per 82: 66 G, 73 A, 139 P

This does miss the difference in assist ratios.

There were 10.6% more assists per goal in 1989 than in 1953. So his 73 assists translates up to 81 assists just with the difference in how assists were awarded (so a 147 point pace instead of 139)

I think most of us are in agreement that Lemieux peaked higher than Howe offensively. The challenge is that Lemieux has such a limited resume of healthy seasons in relation to Howe having the greatest longevity in the sport's history. And that Lemieux was defensively weak while Howe was the best defensive winger of his era.

I get the adjusted by EV/PP/SH, but I do this it still systematically undervalues 1950s hockey.

 

[End on a Hinote]

I'm picking Florida to take it tonight but damn, this kid needs to win a Cup. A legacy like his is just not complete without one.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

There were players putting up similar numbers to howe in his era. He scored 95 points for example and around that time people were scoring in the high 80's etc. Im 89 out of the 4 150 point scorers 2 were mario n wayne. One yzerman n one gretzkys linemate. So really would have only been 3. 44 points back of what lemieux scored regardless. Lemieuxs 44 points playoff has taken 33 years to be threatened n it takes a player like mcdavid to do so. If mcdavid wins the cup ill have him over howe. Mario>Howe

Mario is a great player, his time on the rushmore are gone.

Don't cry cuz it's over, Smile because it happened

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've always hated the idea of a hockey mount Rushmore.

It's just a coincidence that there's a large gap between 4 and 5. McDavid is closing that gap and then the term because inappropriate.

Mount Rushmore isn't the four best presidents. But four presidents that define different eras when it was built. For hockey, this would be more like Morenz-Richard-Orr-Gretzky.

It's very weird that people have to bring American politics into a discussion about Canadian hockey players.

 

[Super Hans]

They just showed a big Gretzky/McDavid video package on ESPN and half of the Gretzky highlights was him just blasting slappers from the slot past tiny goalies just standing there upright lmao

 

[hamzarocks]

It's not just the championships with Jordan, it's the 10 scoring titles and 9 all NBA defense selections; he utterly dominated offensively and defensively. He'd be scoring way more in today's NBA without hand checks and the abusive defensive play that was allowed, just watch his games against the Knicks and Pistons, none of that would fly nowadays. Not to mention players nowadays are allowed to do all sorts of stuff that was considered a carry or travel prior to the 2010s. He'd perenially put up 38+ nowadays if someone like Harden was able to put up 36.5ppg not too long ago. You're seriously selling him short.

Maybe

I do rank Jordan 1A over lebron despite only watching Lebrons era outside of highlights of 90s

MJ prob put 37-40 pts in this era on 50+ fg sure.

That is better than Hardens all time peak year too with his defense + allround play.

Issue i see is MJ would have 2-3 less rings if he played on 1 team this era for a 15 year career and he wouldnt dominate and be talked as the best wonner + player like he was in the 90s

Mcdavid if he gets ring 1 has the peak + prime reg season play. Realistically he only should need 1 maybe 2 more rongs to be the GOAT if he can add 3 more rpss+hart+lindsay years

If people expect him to win those reg season awards + 3-4 more rings assuming oilers win this year to be the goat, then that is 80s/90s nostolgia and imagination going full throttle to pretend either Gretzky or Lemieux would win 4-6 cups in this era (or Jordan 6 rings in the NBA)

42 pts in 23 games is an unheard of playoff run in modern era sports

Cant think anyone having a comparable year in the NBA, MLB, NFL if you exclude 99, 66 and 23 - MJ

 

[fsanford]

Guy is finally achieving what most of us thought he could. He is must watch TV

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Also, Gordie was the best defensive winger for a long time. He wasn’t just scoring points. He played a two-way game that Wayne and Mario didn’t.

He also would beat the shit out of you if you came too close to him.

 

[blundluntman]

Maybe

I do rank Jordan 1A over lebron despite only watching Lebrons era outside of highlights of 90s

MJ prob put 37-40 pts in this era on 50+ fg sure.

That is better than Hardens all time peak year too with his defense + allround play.

Issue i see is MJ would have 2-3 less rings if he played on 1 team this era for a 15 year career and he wouldnt dominate and be talked as the best wonner + player like he was in the 90s

Mcdavid if he gets ring 1 has the peak + prime reg season play. Realistically he only should need 1 maybe 2 more rongs to be the GOAT if he can add 3 more rpss+hart+lindsay years

If people expect him to win those reg season awards + 3-4 more rings assuming oilers win this year to be the goat, then that is 80s/90s nostolgia and imagination going full throttle to pretend either Gretzky or Lemieux would win 4-6 cups in this era (or Jordan 6 rings in the NBA)

42 pts in 23 games is an unheard of playoff run in modern era sports

Cant think anyone having a comparable year in the NBA, MLB, NFL if you exclude 99, 66 and 23 - MJ

There's a few things that come into play when it comes to Jordan's rep as a winner. It isn't just about how often he won, it's about how he won, especially in contrast with someone like Lebron who I consider #2/1B. Jordan had more of a killer instinct and tended to rise more to the occasion the brighter the lights were; he never shied away from taking the last shot and demanded it more than anything. This made for more iconic/memorable moments and lead to players fearing him physically and psychologically. Kobe's probably the only other NBA legend in recent memory to mirror that mentality and it's a pretty important intangible to consider in these kinda discussions. Lebron would have a bit more of an argument against Jordan if it wasn't for his 2014 upset and getting bailed out by Allen the year before. Jordan simply took over games more frequently and had more of the "it factor" while also being slightly superior as a player, that's what turns a slim margin between players into a decisive margin IMO.

I do agree that what McDavid's doing currently may be one of the most impressive performances in sports history and definitely don't wanna take any of that away from him. But the guys he's up against performed at this level also, and have just as many spectacles as McDavid, if not more. I'm not a huge "he has more cups" guy and I think it's a bit of a weak argument if it's the main crux. For me it's the level of dominance and frequency of that dominance.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Maybe

I do rank Jordan 1A over lebron despite only watching Lebrons era outside of highlights of 90s

MJ prob put 37-40 pts in this era on 50+ fg sure.

That is better than Hardens all time peak year too with his defense + allround play.

Issue i see is MJ would have 2-3 less rings if he played on 1 team this era for a 15 year career and he wouldnt dominate and be talked as the best wonner + player like he was in the 90s

Mcdavid if he gets ring 1 has the peak + prime reg season play. Realistically he only should need 1 maybe 2 more rongs to be the GOAT if he can add 3 more rpss+hart+lindsay years

If people expect him to win those reg season awards + 3-4 more rings assuming oilers win this year to be the goat, then that is 80s/90s nostolgia and imagination going full throttle to pretend either Gretzky or Lemieux would win 4-6 cups in this era (or Jordan 6 rings in the NBA)

42 pts in 23 games is an unheard of playoff run in modern era sports

Cant think anyone having a comparable year in the NBA, MLB, NFL if you exclude 99, 66 and 23 - MJ

Kawhi scored the third most points in a run all time behind jordan n lebron in 2019

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Mcdavid keeping it 100% is the best north american sports athlete ever on skill and talent

Lebron wasnt as skilled or talented and dominanted a sport where 1 player has access and allowance to dominate the ball much higher than hockey

Kobe the same except hes 10% worse than Lebron

MJ played in a lower competition era so while he and ( Lemieux and Greztky) dominated the league at higher levels than Mcdavid, they had worse defensive schemes and systems to play against and lower skilled compeitition

No baseball player was putting 75 HR + 200 RBIs + .350 BA type years

NFL dont think any player individually was this talented

People are so normalized/accustomed to Mcdavid we dont realize he just put up 42 pts in 23 games...

This is the best playoff run in NHL history

God this is an incredibly stupid post.

It's not just the championships with Jordan, it's the 10 scoring titles and 9 all NBA defense selections; he utterly dominated offensively and defensively. He'd be scoring way more in today's NBA without hand checks and the abusive defensive play that was allowed, just watch his games against the Knicks and Pistons, none of that would fly nowadays. Not to mention players nowadays are allowed to do all sorts of stuff that was considered a carry or travel prior to the 2010s. He'd perenially put up 38+ nowadays if someone like Harden was able to put up 36.5ppg not too long ago. You're seriously selling him short.

Jordan's defense was very good, but also very overrated and based on fraudulent steal and block numbers.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kawhi scored the third most points in a run all time behind jordan n lebron in 2019

He was amazing sure but he has no consistency if franchise level reg season play and only has 2 deep playoff runs (2017 WCF loss abd 2019 raptors chip) as the face of the team

It would be like Pavel Datsyuk mixed with Logan Cotures playoffs being talked liked a top 5 player ever when that at best is a top 30

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

If McDavid completes the greatest comeback of all time is he the greatest of all time, 97>99?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

He was amazing sure but he has no consistency if franchise level reg season play and only has 2 deep playoff runs (2017 WCF loss abd 2019 raptors chip) as the face of the team

It would be like Pavel Datsyuk mixed with Logan Cotures playoffs being talked liked a top 5 player ever when that at best is a top 30

He has 2 finals mvp

 

[ORRFForever]

Mcdavid keeping it 100% is the best north american sports athlete ever on skill and talent

Lebron wasnt as skilled or talented and dominanted a sport where 1 player has access and allowance to dominate the ball much higher than hockey

Kobe the same except hes 10% worse than Lebron

MJ played in a lower competition era so while he and ( Lemieux and Greztky) dominated the league at higher levels than Mcdavid, they had worse defensive schemes and systems to play against and lower skilled compeitition

No baseball player was putting 75 HR + 200 RBIs + .350 BA type years

NFL dont think any player individually was this talented

People are so normalized/accustomed to Mcdavid we dont realize he just put up 42 pts in 23 games...

This is the best playoff run in NHL history

You've thought about this WAY too much. Just try and enjoy Game 7.

 

[Buck Naked]

If McDavid completes the greatest comeback of all time is he the greatest of all time, 97>99?

No, but he's sure got a case for the greatest individual playoff run of all time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If he was healthy he would have Gretzky type of numbers who is the consensus goat.

Also you’re not taking the injuries serious lol. In the prime of his career he got cancer and injuries derailing his numbers. He wouldve had even more numbers if he wasnt injured and got cancer through his 20s and 30s in the prime of his career lol. In his best season he still had 6 games to be played he would’ve without a doubt been the second ever to get a 200pt season.

although Lemieux wasn’t as good of an all around player that Howe was, he still wasn’t no scrub defensively and he is way better offensively. Put Lemieux in howes league and he’s putting up 150pts every season- he would be like an alien they would’ve never seen anything like it up until that point.

If you add on the games that Howe played over Lemieux (852) and put lemieuxs average down half a point per game (0.5)accounting for him getting older and going into his 40s he would still have a 1.38ppg. And he would have an extra 1176 points. 1723+1175 =2898 and we have a new nhl record for points supassing Gretzkys 2857 lol.

Lemieux came back after being off for 3 years to still put up 76pts in 43 games for a 1.76 ppg. If he played the full 82 games then he would’ve had 144 points, 23 more than jagr who won the art ross that year.

170 games played out of 410 after the 3 years off where anyone else would have just retired for good and put up 229 pts for a 1.34ppg while injured nonstop and unable to stay healthy in puck era where scoring was way down. In 2002/2003 he came 8th in total scoring despite only playing 67 games. Had he played the full season he would’ve had 111pts placing him above Peter forsberg for the year as a 37 year old. Arguably howes best season in 1952/1953 where he had 95 pts in 70 games- he had. 1.35 ppg average as a 25 year old in the prime of his career.

Can keep going but I think I proved my point.

You've proven that Lemieux is one of the greatest players of all-time. Trust me, nobody is denying that.

You can't pull numbers out of the air to make an argument. You said that Lemieux would score 150 points in Howe's era. That's not an argument, it's just making up a number. In my post, I walked through my reasoning step by step, so you can see how I arrived at the conclusion.

Like I said, I don't care if someone picks Lemieux. I'm not trying to trash talk him. My only point was you can't compare stats from the 1950's and the 1980's without making a lot of adjustments. And once you do that, you'll see why, peak vs peak, Howe vs Lemieux is pretty close.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Can’t even say enough about what he’s doing right now, haters need to sit back and realize the greatness we are all witnessing here

The guy is completely and totally on another level

Im not allowed to like anymore after the whole caps buying capfriendly and then one other thread I forget but if I could. Id like this lol

 

[MessierII]

Back to the OP.

If McDavid breaks Gretzky's record but Edmonton doesn't win the Cup, it means even the best offensive player giving the best ever offensive performance may not be enough to win the Cup because hockey is a team sport.

But is the opposite also true? If Edmonton wins the Cup, can it be surmised that one player can, in fact, win all by himself? Or will people start bringing up Bouchard, Skinner, etc. to challenge this notion?

McDavid didn’t have a point in a 5-1 win last night