Traded Mathieu Joseph traded to Blues

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That everyone's priorities for years now. Those were all clear glaring holes for the team. It's how you address those issues and the moves you make to fix them that you get judged on, not the fact that just something was done about them. Dorion brought in Korp to address the goaltending on an anchor contract, he technically addressed an outstanding priority, but it wasn't a good move from the outset, and that's what he's judged on. The way Staios has been addressing those problems leaves alot to be desired. For me, Ullmark can be his one saving grace if he can get him extended, that could make up for alot of these blunders, everything else was a crapshoot.

They have been the priorities, but they were never fixed, so the best Staios can do now is try to fix them with the hand he's been dealt. Dorion tried to do that with a big contract to a career backup, and acquiring the biggest name for an available D regardless of fit. Most of what he tried to bring in from the outside didn't work. Staios brought in a real #1 goalie, a real 2nd pairing 20 minute defensive RD, and veteran depth. You're right that the recipe he's chosen will be what he's judged on, but the holes that existed have been plugged regardless of perceived value on some of the deals.

I think the harder part for fans to accept, myself included, was that Chychrun and Joseph's value was as low as it was. I get that. It sucks, because we paid a ton for Chyc and it doesn't seem like Joseph should be viewed as a cap dump by the 31 other GMs.

 

[SENStastic]

They have been the priorities, but they were never fixed, so the best Staios can do now is try to fix them with the hand he's been dealt. Dorion tried to do that with a big contract to a career backup, and acquiring the biggest name for an available D regardless of fit. Most of what he tried to bring in from the outside didn't work. Staios brought in a real #1 goalie, a real 2nd pairing 20 minute defensive RD, and veteran depth. You're right that the recipe he's chosen will be what he's judged on, but the holes that existed have been plugged regardless of perceived value on some of the deals.

I think the harder part for fans to accept, myself included, was that Chychrun and Joseph's value was as low as it was. I get that. It sucks, because we paid a ton for Chyc and it doesn't seem like Joseph should be viewed as a cap dump by the 31 other GMs.

Thats the key sentence right there. Yes they've been plugged, with temporary aged fillers at significant cost, but aren't going to be part of any real contending roster in the future, while those assets expended are gone for good. There is no real long term fix here, just short term bandaids, and an ever dwindling pool of trade capital. That is the problem. A team like Ottawa that's not a hot trade/UFA destination needs to excel at drafting, developing and managing their assets better than most if we ever hope to ice a contender sometime this decade, and we've been horrible at all three so far.

 

[lancepitlick]

Chychrun, Brannstrom, Joseph have all probably had extremely low value for the past 12 months or so (maybe more like 6 months for Chychrun). Other teams have them pegged as 1) a #4 defenseman 2) barely NHL players.

It is what it is. You also consider that the Senators have sucked. You know when we get a guy like Perron and everyone says he's a winner, played on a cup contender? Well, with those three guys then opposite happens: they are losers who don't know how to win. They probably have less than 10 playoff games between them in like 12 combined NHL seasons or so.

I HIGHLY doubt that Jaques/Alfie identified Joseph as a Pageau/Fisher/Boro kind of guy in terms of effort and consistency. It doesn't mean he's a cancer or a bad teammate, but they are probably trying to get more guys that are super hard working pros so players like Stutzle/Kleven/JBD/Greig, even Tkachuck, have role models.

If Perron or Giroux are putting in extra time and doing all the right things, that's a good example.

 

[otown]

They have been the priorities, but they were never fixed, so the best Staios can do now is try to fix them with the hand he's been dealt. Dorion tried to do that with a big contract to a career backup, and acquiring the biggest name for an available D regardless of fit. Most of what he tried to bring in from the outside didn't work. Staios brought in a real #1 goalie, a real 2nd pairing 20 minute defensive RD, and veteran depth. You're right that the recipe he's chosen will be what he's judged on, but the holes that existed have been plugged regardless of perceived value on some of the deals.

I think the harder part for fans to accept, myself included, was that Chychrun and Joseph's value was as low as it was. I get that. It sucks, because we paid a ton for Chyc and it doesn't seem like Joseph should be viewed as a cap dump by the 31 other GMs.

Once again the new Sens regime is paying the price of PD's incompetence.
Despite Staios trying to unload for something, there comes a time when you have to cut your losses and reconfigure.
Now it is time to move forward with role players, a new culture, added vets for shared responsible leadership and guiding the young guns!
The new Sheriff in town, Travis Green has things to prove after gaining the support of Andlauer and company. This will be an interesting and entertaining season!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Thats the key sentence right there. Yes they've been plugged, with temporary aged fillers at significant cost, but aren't going to be part of any real contending roster in the future, while those assets expended are gone for good. There is no real long term fix here, just short term bandaids, and an ever dwindling pool of trade capital. That is the problem. A team like Ottawa that's not a hot trade/UFA destination needs to excel at drafting, developing and managing their assets better than most if we ever hope to ice a contender sometime this decade, and we've been horrible at all three so far.

I mean, Jensen could re-sign and settle in to a 3rd pairing role later on while a prospect like Yakemchuk steps in. Amadio is here for 3 seasons, Perron 2, Gregor 1 and all were free wallets other than salary. The 3rd lost in the Joseph deal is lame, but it isn't going to swing the pendulum in any direction and cap space has a cost attached. Detroit did similar yesterday to make room for Tarasenko. They weren't getting any of the UFA RD targets, so trade was their option. The only thing left is the Chychrun deal and I get not liking how low his value dipped and feeling like he should have gotten more, but clearly he wasn't in much demand and any value lost is not going to swing the pendulum either.

 

[lancepitlick]

Thats the key sentence right there. Yes they've been plugged, with temporary aged fillers at significant cost, but aren't going to be part of any real contending roster in the future, while those assets expended are gone for good. There is no real long term fix here, just short term bandaids, and an ever dwindling pool of trade capital. That is the problem. A team like Ottawa that's not a hot trade/UFA destination needs to excel at drafting, developing and managing their assets better than most if we ever hope to ice a contender sometime this decade, and we've been horrible at all three so far.

Dorion literally expended all our trade capital by the time Staois got here. All that was left was 2 first rounders this year/Chychrun and Staois traded one of this years first and Chychrun. The team needed to use the other pick as they have zero prospects.

Any other asset is a key roster player and trading them wouldn't improve the team next season. At best you'd get an equal player back.

A small market team shouldn't be sending picks out like hot cakes, especially not for players that don't work out/leave quickly.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Once again the new Sens regime is paying the price of PD's incompetence.
Despite Staios trying to unload for something, there comes a time when you have to cut your losses and reconfigure.
Now it is time to move forward with role players, a new culture, added vets for shared responsible leadership and guiding the young guns!
The new Sheriff in town, Travis Green has things to prove after gaining the support of Andlauer and company. This will be an interesting and entertaining season!

Dorion literally expended all our trade capital by the time Staois got here. All that was left was 2 first rounders this year/Chychrun and Staois traded one of this years first and Chychrun. The team needed to use the other pick as they have zero prospects.

Any other asset is a key roster player and trading them wouldn't improve the team next season. At best you'd get an equal player back.

A small market team shouldn't be sending picks out like hot cakes, especially not for players that don't work out/leave quickly.

This is the thing. We all want them to do better, but what they can do at this point is limited. Dorion burned through so much on so many things that didn't work out and it just is what it is at this point. Just not a lot left to work with for Staios and the one he blew his load on a bit with the 1st was very much worth it. In a way it makes me think of what Edmonton went through. Some great talent, but some terrible cap decisions along the way, and they have spent years trying to make the best of it rather than blowing it up. We don't have McDavid/Draisaitl obviously, but still, I think there's still a path here.

 

[PlayOn]

Thats the key sentence right there. Yes they've been plugged, with temporary aged fillers at significant cost, but aren't going to be part of any real contending roster in the future, while those assets expended are gone for good. There is no real long term fix here, just short term bandaids, and an ever dwindling pool of trade capital. That is the problem. A team like Ottawa that's not a hot trade/UFA destination needs to excel at drafting, developing and managing their assets better than most if we ever hope to ice a contender sometime this decade, and we've been horrible at all three so far.

I have no problem with the bandaids. Actually, I think he did exactly what he needed to do. IMO this off-season was always about trying to stop the bleeding.

Once you do that, it’s easier to bring players in and sell them on winning, it gives you more time to develop your prospects and it gives your new pro scouting staff time to work at identifying and getting what you’re going to need to win.

The problem is if we continue to suck, you start moving backwards and retooling. Maybe we had to sacrifice some of our assets in the process, but unlike Dorion, what we gave up was reasonable. A 25th overall pick, 3rd round pick and Chychrun to bring in a good goalie, solid top 4 RD and create some cap room is healthy, even if it’s not spectacular.

 

[SENStastic]

I mean, Jensen could re-sign and settle in to a 3rd pairing role later on while a prospect like Yakemchuk steps in. Amadio is here for 3 seasons, Perron 2, Gregor 1 and all were free wallets other than salary. The 3rd lost in the Joseph deal is lame, but it isn't going to swing the pendulum in any direction and cap space has a cost attached. Detroit did similar yesterday to make room for Tarasenko. They weren't getting any of the UFA RD targets, so trade was their option. The only thing left is the Chychrun deal and I get not liking how low his value dipped and feeling like he should have gotten more, but clearly he wasn't in much demand and any value lost is not going to swing the pendulum either.

Jensen is 34 this season and will be 36 if we resign, no thanks. Perron already cant keep up. None of these will be here in two years, Im praying theyre off the team by then or were in even bigger trouble. Amadio and Gregor arent key pieces for anything, theyre decent role players, thats it, and Amadio cap is higher than should be. Anyhow arguing in circles here, bottom line, none of the moves he's done aside from Ullmark warrants any commendation, theyre just bad all around, and not getting us any closer to building a real perennial contender.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Jensen is 34 this season and will be 36 if we resign, no thanks. Perron already cant keep up. None of these will be here in two years, Im praying theyre off the team by then or were in even bigger trouble. Amadio and Gregor arent key pieces for anything, theyre decent role players, thats it, and Amadio cap is higher than should be. Anyhow arguing in circles here, bottom line, none of the moves he's done aside from Ullmark warrants any commendation, theyre just bad all around, and not getting us any closer to building a real perennial contender.

If you're Ottawa then 80% of building a perennial contender comes from drafting an development while the rest comes from signing/trading for support players. This isn't Vegas or Florida.

 

[SENStastic]

I have no problem with the bandaids. Actually, I think he did exactly what he needed to do. IMO this off-season was always about trying to stop the bleeding.

Thats how I see it too, its clearly what his plan was this offseason, but my issue is that we're heading into an 8th year of no playoffs, and no additional key pieces to build on afterward in the following years that could bring you towards an established contender, with the exception of Ullmark resigning, and with an aging Giroux and clock ticking on how much more Brady is willing to put up with before wanting out. He just saw his brother hoist the cup and he has never even sniffed a playoff game. So if you see this as a transition year like I do, it means at least one more year of going no where, and no idea if the team will have anything better to work with afterwards either..

If you're Ottawa then 80% of building a perennial contender comes from drafting an development while the rest comes from signing/trading for support players. This isn't Vegas or Florida.

 

[GCK]

Jensen is 34 this season and will be 36 if we resign, no thanks. Perron already cant keep up. None of these will be here in two years, Im praying theyre off the team by then or were in even bigger trouble. Amadio and Gregor arent key pieces for anything, theyre decent role players, thats it, and Amadio cap is higher than should be. Anyhow arguing in circles here, bottom line, none of the moves he's done aside from Ullmark warrants any commendation, theyre just bad all around, and not getting us any closer to building a real perennial contender.

Jensen was by far the best option available, we wanted one of the UFAs but we couldn’t attract them. He’s a good player and a way better fit than Chychrun, who only had 1 year left.

Perron is a culture change signing for our middle 6.

Ullmark is a legit goalie.

Amadio is a 3rd liner from a winning team who plays all 3 forward positions.

What were you expecting ?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Jensen is 34 this season and will be 36 if we resign, no thanks. Perron already cant keep up. None of these will be here in two years, Im praying theyre off the team by then or were in even bigger trouble. Amadio and Gregor arent key pieces for anything, theyre decent role players, thats it, and Amadio cap is higher than should be. Anyhow arguing in circles here, bottom line, none of the moves he's done aside from Ullmark warrants any commendation, theyre just bad all around, and not getting us any closer to building a real perennial contender.

I agree we're getting nowhere, but that's okay, it's just hockey. You're entitled to your opinion, but obviously I disagree with a lot of it.

Jensen is a fresh 34 right at seasons beginning. He's not a corpse. Just saying, he may be here for 3 or 4 years if he takes a lesser role and salary and acts as an effective bridge to this latest draft. TML just gave Tanev 6 years and he's a year older than Jensen and has missed way more games the last 3 seasons.

Joseph and Amadio have produced at a similar rate the last 3 years, with Amadio being the better goal scorer with 41 over Joseph's 26 over that period, and being more consistent over the 3 year period. He makes less than Joseph.

Perron's point totals last year were relatively in line with the ranges of his last 8 seasons. He's getting up there, but he still produced last year for basically the salary he earned in Ottawa.

Gregor is a nobody being subbed in for Parker Kelly, another nobody by NHL standards. Nothing else should be expected from ~800k.

 

[PlayOn]

Thats how I see it too, its clearly what his plan was this offseason, but my issue is that we're heading into an 8th year of no playoffs, and no additional key pieces to build on afterward in the following years that could bring you towards an established contender, with the exception of Ullmark resigning, and with an aging Giroux and clock ticking on how much more Brady is willing to put up with before wanting out. He just saw his brother hoist the cup and he has never even sniffed a playoff game. So if you see this as a transition year like I do, it means at least one more year of going no where, and no idea if the team will have anything better to work with afterwards either..

If we make the playoffs I wouldn’t call that going nowhere.

It seems premature to deem us doomed to not be able to build on what we have now. We’re not THAT asset poor and there’s plenty of time for us to make some solid trades.

 

[SENStastic]

I agree we're getting nowhere, but that's okay, it's just hockey. You're entitled to your opinion, but obviously I disagree with a lot of it.

Jensen is a fresh 34 right at seasons beginning. He's not a corpse. Just saying, he may be here for 3 or 4 years if he takes a lesser role and salary and acts as an effective bridge to this latest draft. TML just gave Tanev 6 years and he's a year older than Jensen and has missed way more games the last 3 seasons.

Joseph and Amadio have produced at a similar rate the last 3 years, with Amadio being the better goal scorer with 41 over Joseph's 26 over that period, and being more consistent over the 3 year period. He makes less than Joseph.

Perron's point totals last year were relatively in line with the ranges of his last 8 seasons. He's getting up there, but he still produced last year for basically the salary he earned in Ottawa.

Gregor is a nobody being subbed in for Parker Kelly, another nobody by NHL standards. Nothing else should be expected from ~800k.

Again, ya were not going to see eye to eye on anything. Just plain disagree with Jensen and Perrons value on the roster, both now and in 2 years. They better be gone by then, or like I mentioned, were in really deep trouble. Gonna need to wrap this, not interested in never ending debate. I just don't see them as key or critical pieces to anything in the future, just temp plugs. Thats all they're here to do.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Ehh Joseph is the opposite of a "soft" bottom 6 guy.

Only Tkachuk, Kastelic, Kelly and Greig had more hits. All of them who are the opposite of soft.

That trade was idiotic. Simply put. Don't know which team you've been watching. Maybe you're talking about Kubalik?

Joseph's replacement, Amadio, is way softer if that's what you care about. He's also way slower and I'm not sure he will be able to reproduce what he did with Vegas either.

I'd take Joseph on my team no questions asked over the replacement Staois added. This roster started to make sense with the additions + Joseph. Now it doesn't make as much sense.

Hell I'd bet Joseph has a better year than Perron who can barely skate at this point.

I don't have much confidence in those moves. I think they do better purely because of Ullmark and Jensen but the Perron/Amadio/Joseph moves were questionnable at best.

Did it make sense without signing Pinto? Because we're right up against the cap if we sign Pinto and keep Joseph. Currently we have some breathing room.

 

[SENStastic]

If we make the playoffs I wouldn’t call that going nowhere.

It seems premature to deem us doomed to not be able to build on what we have now. We’re not THAT asset poor and there’s plenty of time for us to make some solid trades.

I envy your optimism. Sadly I dont share it, I'll believe it when I finally see it. Not holding my breath tho.

 

[DylanSensFan]

JBD is already under contract, what are you talking about? Pinto's cap was still cap compliant. I dont know what the plan is with Hamonic, but if he wanted more cap space buying his last year isnt going to cost much or be on the books for long, and would've given a little more room if thats what he really wanted. Anyhow, thats just one option, he had plenty of time to figure out something else out if not, he wasn't over the cap regardless.

My mistake. It still doesn't alleviate the issue of cap room if we keep Joseph. We currently have around $2-mill in cap space. How exactly were we getting Joseph under the cap?

 

[SENStastic]

My mistake. It still doesn't alleviate the issue of cap room if we keep Joseph. We currently have around $2-mill in cap space. How exactly were we getting Joseph under the cap?

All good. We have 3.6M cap, Joseph is 2.9M. Check capfriendly

 

[Micklebot]

My mistake. It still doesn't alleviate the issue of cap room if we keep Joseph. We currently have around $2-mill in cap space. How exactly were we getting Joseph under the cap?

We currently have a 19 man roster (6 D, 11f and 2G) with 3.6 mil in space. Most people are assuming Kleven is up along with a forward like Ostapchuk, but just adding Joseph would fit, giving us a 20 man roster.

We could have bought out Hamonic (not an option anymore) and called up Kleven as well.

 

[DueDiligence]

Thats how I see it too, its clearly what his plan was this offseason, but my issue is that we're heading into an 8th year of no playoffs, and no additional key pieces to build on afterward in the following years that could bring you towards an established contender

And whose fault is that? Staois and crew inherited a bottom feeding team that had spent to the cap and had a poorly rated prospect pool. But even with those limitations the major deals SS has made to jettison mistakes like Korpisalo and Chychrun have turned out fairly well.

So that being said you hate the return on Joseph and lump it in with similar PD deals, but why? Do you really think the current management and coaching group ( SS, Poulin, Martin, Alfie etc) are similar to the one man show of PD? You imply incompetence in this deal with no info to share other than the result. I look at the new management team in place and say there is something else involved other than what we know for them to make this deal now.

 

[SENStastic]

And whose fault is that? Staois and crew inherited a bottom feeding team that had spent to the cap and had a poorly rated prospect pool. But even with those limitations the major deals SS has made to jettison mistakes like Korpisalo and Chychrun have turned out fairly well.

So that being said you hate the return on Joseph and lump it in with similar PD deals, but why? Do you really think the current management and coaching group ( SS, Poulin, Martin, Alfie etc) are similar to the one man show of PD? You imply incompetence in this deal with no info to share other than the result. I look at the new management team in place and say there is something else involved other than what we know for them to make this deal now.

Jeez back to rehashing everything. Read previous convos this has been beaten to death now. Not putting this on Dorion, and no one gets to own it except Staios at this point. Coaching change is bad as well, went from unproven coach to one that already proven to have no better success. Other moves equally uninspiring. Seems like some people are still more than happy to just keep drinking the Kool aid, I thought we'd all know better by now after the previous leadership, guess not. If this is what best in class looks like, God help us all.

 

[DylanSensFan]

We currently have a 19 man roster (6 D, 11f and 2G) with 3.6 mil in space. Most people are assuming Kleven is up along with a forward like Ostapchuk, but just adding Joseph would fit, giving us a 20 man roster.

We could have bought out Hamonic (not an option anymore) and called up Kleven as well.

I didn't realize we had that much cap space.

 

[thinkwild]

We could hang on to Joseph. Maybe as his 2 years is ending finally some team will give in and offer a, a what? A 5th? If they did would you continue to hold out for more? Until finally we got a 3rd rounder? And then can claim we won the asset management. But lost the team building war.

You cant expect to “win” every trade. It’s just not realistic. Some we win, some we lose. We cant always control that. Judging every move by it’s “asset management” in a bubble isn’t helping to make wise big picture evaluations or build the team well.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Again, ya were not going to see eye to eye on anything. Just plain disagree with Jensen and Perrons value on the roster, both now and in 2 years. They better be gone by then, or like I mentioned, were in really deep trouble. Gonna need to wrap this, not interested in never ending debate. I just don't see them as key or critical pieces to anything in the future, just temp plugs. Thats all they're here to do.

Just be open to being wrong is all I'm saying, of course you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just trying to offer another perspective.

To clarify, I never meant to imply any of Jensen, Amadio or Perron are big long term pieces, they are mostly stop gaps, but necessary ones imo, and it isn't always black and white about how long and what they contribute to. And besides, the cap is basically eaten up on this team by the core Dorion committed to, and the organization was left asset starved with little left to move. I don't know why people expected big acquisitions when there basically isn't room for them sans a goaltender already acquired. It's a basement dwelling canadian small market so UFA's weren't overly realistic. The one trade piece they did have in Chychrun turned out to not be of much interest to the league, so what can you do at that point. Like it or not, the core already signed is going to have to be the guys to dig out and lead. They are the horses, for better or worse.